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muscles like this! posted:Then he did a joke ending (to I think issue #100?) where Rick wakes up in a room with all the dead main characters who are cyborgs and they team up to fight the aliens (and also the comic is in color.) Wasn't that just a variant cover to #50?
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Sep 1, 2017 01:48
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They did both. Readers who had been trade-reading and not familiar with the story from the letters pages of the singles were really confused by that joke ending.
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Sep 1, 2017 08:40
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TwoPair posted:You're right that there probably isn't a shadow war at Marvel between writers and editorial. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there isn't any impact to having Nextwave be canon but maybe people are just happy because a mini they liked is being referenced after they were previously told it wasn't canon. I know you hate Nextwave with a passion so maybe this concept just makes no sense, but substitute Nextwave for an enjoyable mini of your choosing and decide whether or not it would bring you a modicum of happiness seeing it referenced in a "main" book. muscles like this! posted:IIRC he lied to them and said that the whole thing was going to build to an alien invasion story. irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 09:41
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irlZaphod posted:I enjoyed Nextwave but I don't get the obsession over whether it's canon or not.
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Sep 1, 2017 11:54
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irlZaphod posted:I don't think it really matters what Kirkman told Image considering they simply publish the book and have no real say over what happens in it.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:12
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Jordan7hm posted:I think it kind of does. They do some vetting on what they publish before they publish it.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:23
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irlZaphod posted:They don't decline stuff based on the genre or type of story though. If you submit a lovely pitch which doesn't meet their standards, it'll go straight in the bin. Yeah but if they don't want straight super hero stories right now that's probably what they consider a lovely pitch. Quality isn't in a vacuum.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:29
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Jordan7hm posted:Yeah but if they don't want straight super hero stories right now that's probably what they consider a lovely pitch. Quality isn't in a vacuum. Quality is subjective, sure, but I doubt they want straight-up super hero stories ever. This is getting a bit away from the point though that it doesn't matter whether or not Kirkman told Image that he was going to introduce aliens into the Walking Dead but didn't because Image don't really care about that too much, nor do they have any control over it.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:38
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Image in 2003 (when Walking Dead started) and Image in 2017 (or 1993) are different companies and have different standards/processes I'm guessing. Image doesn't just rubber stamp books you want to publish through them, though there are probably exceptions for partners or some proven commodity like Brubaker/Phillips. Kirkman would have had to have pitched Walking Dead (and Invincible, and etc.) to someone at Image, given the timeframe probably Jim Valentino or Erik Larsen. Once you're going they don't edit or censor or do anything to your book (see also: Howard Chaykin!) but they have to sign off on Howard Chaykin's idea, though he might be given a rubberstamp too. Kirkman in 2003 wasn't getting rubber stamped. Here's a link to the books that Image put out the same month as Walking Dead #1 http://www.cbr.com/image-comics-solicitations-for-product-shipping-october-2003/ Aside from Walking Dead, aside from most of these books being completely forgotten, everything sort of fit into a few categories: Superheroes: They still had Spawn/Savage Dragon/Witchblade going, plus Invincible and Noble Causes and some other stuff Sci-Fi/Fantasy: Most of these are forgotten but there sure are a lot of pseudo-Vertigo books about demon detectives and "Frankenstein Mobster" and "the sword of Dracula" and cyberpunk robot fighters from Neo-Tokyo style books Licensed Books: They were doing a bunch of GI Joe/Transformers/Battle of the Planets/Hedge Knight/Tomb Raider books too Pulling up the rear are a few crime books, probably because Jinx and later Powers did pretty well, and there was a sort of "crime comics are hot!" trend in the early 2000s. There's no zombie stuff, or anything that's sort of real "horror" as opposed to "Dracula, but young and buff and with a sword fighting cyberbats!" and compared to today a pretty narrow band of things that seemed "marketable". Saying it starts off as zombies but then goes sci-fi sounds like the first issue pitch of half of these books. I don't think it's unreasonable looking at the market and what Image was greenlighting in 2003 and seeing them go "I don't see the market for a survival horror zombie book". I also can totally believe Kirkman read the landscape and went "no no, it's zombies that lead into a sci-fi/zombie mashup!" and that sealed the deal. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 17:03
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Edge & Christian posted:Image in 2003 (when Walking Dead started) and Image in 2017 (or 1993) are different companies and have different standards/processes I'm guessing. An understatement for sure, considering Kirkman is now its Chief Operating Officer and a partner in the company.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:49
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Edge & Christian posted:Here's a link to the books that Image put out the same month as Walking Dead #1 Any month that had an Age of Bronze issue published is a good month. Lurdiak posted:Aw, come on. No need to bring the room down. There is because I hate the Walking Dead and Robert Kirkman a lot.  I mean yeah the comics industry is built on the backs of screwed over creators but it's especially odious to me when a generation of creators who witnessed the rise of Image first hand (or directly participated in it) decide to become the screwers themselves. How hard would it have been to throw Moore some cash? Dude was a goddamn childhood friend for gently caress's sake. Like say what you want about Mark Millar for example, and I'll probably be there with you saying the same stuff, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't actively gently caress over his collaborators. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 20:56
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Lightning Lord posted:Any month that had an Age of Bronze issue published is a good month. I feel what you're saying but I think you picked a pretty bad example in Mark Millar if Grant Morrison is to be believed. Personally I find The Walking Dead dispute particularly egregious since the only reason I ever started reading it was because a poster on this very forum had one of Moore's covers as an avatar. It looked so cool I just had to know what it was from.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:37
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Lightning Lord posted:Any month that had an Age of Bronze issue published is a good month. I don't know if it's actually true, but according to interviews Mark Millar makes sure the artists of his books get half the money for everything, so JRJR got as much off the Kickass films as Millar, as did whoever drew Kingsmen and Wanted, assuming Millar wasn't lying.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:43
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I hear Kirkman's bitter that Tony Moore did his usual thing of drawing a few issues and moving on to some other thing. There's certainly no doubt that if Moore had remained the artist on TWD it'd be a much prettier comic.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:49
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Mister Nobody posted:I feel what you're saying but I think you picked a pretty bad example in Mark Millar if Grant Morrison is to be believed. I don't think we'll ever know the full story behind Mark Millar and Grant Morrison's falling out, but with what little we do know I don't think it's about money. Morrison really loving hates Millar though. quote:There’s a very good chance of running into him, and I hope I’m going 100 miles an hour when it happens. Morrison and Alan Moore also despise each other apparently, and all three of them seem to get along good with Warren Ellis, so if it's a personality thing I think it might be Grant Morrison's fault.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:51
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The Morrison/Millar thing is less about money and more about Morrison very specifically taking Millar under his wing as a protege of sorts. Like, Millar literally met and interviewed Morrison for a fanzine when Millar was a teenager and asked Morrison for help breaking into the industry. Morrison set him up with some of his first pro work in the UK, and his first 2000AD work was co-written with Morrison. His first Big Two comic work was co-writing Swamp Thing with Grant Morrison for six issues and then Millar took over for the remainder of the run with the self-professed input/advice/assistance of Morrison. His next American project was Skrull Kill Krew, also co-written by Morrison. He went on to co-write Aztek, Flash, and various JLA stories alongside Morrison, and when he got his first big solo break taking over the Authority, Morrison claims he was effectively co-writing the book for no credit/money alongside him, and ended up getting credited for writing an issue solo when Millar was ill. Though I think Millar denies it, Morrison also claims he gave Millar a lot of story beats for his early Ultimate X-Men/Ultimates work, and I think they both admit the ending and other elements of Red Son were Morrison's. Morrison's never talked about details I don't think, but he's referred to the schism as Millar like this: quote:When he got the Authority book, his star started to rise, and at that point, he felt he was in my shadow and he had to get out, and the way to get out was to do this fairly uncool split. It was quite hard, I felt, but he had to make his own way, and he was in denial that I'd been there, because I saw a lot of his work had been plotted or devised, even dialogue suggestions were done by me right up until the point of The Ultimates. It was seen by him as a dimunition of his position, even though it wasn't, I was quite proud of him as a mentor. I think it's pretty different than the Moore/Morrison thing, which was essentially *Morrison* being the teenage journalist poo poo-talking Moore more or less to get attention/garner controversy for his zine, at the time he'd more or less admit that Moore's a good writer but put on too much of a pedestal. Moore heard about this and dismissed Morrison out of hand, and over the past thirty years Moore has continued to more or less deny the existence/worth of Morrison full stop. I am not even sure if the two of them have spoken ever, so I don't know if Morrison's personality could have that much to do with it outside of interviews, I guess?
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Sep 1, 2017 22:17
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Skwirl posted:Morrison and Alan Moore also despise each other apparently, and all three of them seem to get along good with Warren Ellis, so if it's a personality thing I think it might be Grant Morrison's fault. Yeah Moore's so well known for being easy to get along with
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Sep 1, 2017 22:30
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Edge & Christian posted:I think it's pretty different than the Moore/Morrison thing, which was essentially *Morrison* being the teenage journalist poo poo-talking Moore more or less to get attention/garner controversy for his zine, at the time he'd more or less admit that Moore's a good writer but put on too much of a pedestal. Moore heard about this and dismissed Morrison out of hand, and over the past thirty years Moore has continued to more or less deny the existence/worth of Morrison full stop. I am not even sure if the two of them have spoken ever, so I don't know if Morrison's personality could have that much to do with it outside of interviews, I guess? I read in an interview that Morrison also had the idea that Moore intervened with Dez Skinn to prevent him from taking over Miracleman when Moore quit that book. Not much basis as far as I'm aware because I think Gaiman was always Moore's recommendation to take over from him anyway. He also said he disliked being treated as someone had been following in Moore's footsteps and was keen to point out that he had work published a few months before Moore did in 1979 or so.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:39
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Edge & Christian posted:Short answer: yes. Not content to take over Star Brand and blow up Pittsburgh, John Byrne also took a gratuitous shot at Shooter in DC's 1987 Legends miniseries, too.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:59
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Retro Futurist posted:Yeah Moore's so well known for being easy to get along with He is, actually.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:01
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Johns probably doesn't much care for him. And Jason Aaron had some not so nice words for him.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:06
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Getting mad at stuff he says in interviews is pretty different from saying he sucks to be around, which is what I thought we were talking about.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:07
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Lurdiak posted:Getting mad at stuff he says in interviews is pretty different from saying he sucks to be around, which is what I thought we were talking about.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:57
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I don't know what he expected, but Dave Gibbons is probably the nicest comic pro I've ever met.
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Sep 2, 2017 17:43
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Can someome talk about Avengers West Coast to me? I'm under the impression its where all of the Vision/Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye/Mocking Bird development came from. Are they good comics? Important? They seem like a complete blindspot on Marvel Unlimited, is it avaible digitally anywhere?
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Sep 6, 2017 00:16
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Avengers West Coast was my preferred Avengers growing up. There's a few issues on MU but not many. I'm not sure they're available anywhere. I haven't read any in god knows how long so I'd love for them to be put up there but I'm not holding my breath.
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Sep 6, 2017 00:20
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Sinners Sandwich posted:Can someome talk about Avengers West Coast to me? I'm under the impression its where all of the Vision/Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye/Mocking Bird development came from. The art was really, really bad for the first few years. There were some darn good comics in there, though. There was one super-fun series where they kept having time-travel shenanigans and each issue split up into more divergent storylines than the one before. And yeah, Hawkeye and Mockingbird started off married and wound up divorced because Clint had his head up his rear end about some poo poo that went down during an adventure. (Mockingbird was brainwashed and abused by the old Ghost Rider, and she let his rear end fall off a cliff. Frankly, he got off easy.) Then John Byrne came along and got Wanda started on the road to crazytown that she's been stuck on ever since. Some very good and interesting comics in there, sez I, but I'm not the world's best judge. Oh yeah, and John Byrne hosed Vision over pretty hard, too. A real shame, that whole situation.
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Sep 6, 2017 00:24
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The entire run was collected in two omnibuses some years ago. Probably both out of print now. Wouldn't be surprised if WCA was added to the Epic Collection line in the future, though. Most of the run (about 40 out of 70 or so issues) is written by Steve Englehart and it's the best part of it. The remainder was written first by John Byrne during his big return to Marvel after he left DC in 1989 and it's a pretty notorious case of a writer getting up on their soapbox about how certain characters should be written, while the last handful of issues were by Roy and Dann Thomas.
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Sep 6, 2017 00:28
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It had moon knight in it for a good 20 issues or so so it wasn't that bad... (oh wait, it had Tigra just getting it on with everyone)
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Sep 6, 2017 00:41
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Ferrule posted:(oh wait, it had Tigra just getting it on with everyone) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJlU_d186TU
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Sep 6, 2017 00:53
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WCA is also home to weird poo poo like Master Pandemonium, the demonologist villain who has babies for hands. The babies are also the children of the Scarlet Witch and Vision, who are also Wiccan and Speed from Young Avengers.
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Sep 6, 2017 02:29
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Lightning Lord posted:WCA is also home to weird poo poo like Master Pandemonium, the demonologist villain who has babies for hands. The babies are also the children of the Scarlet Witch and Vision, who are also Wiccan and Speed from Young Avengers. MP might be terrible here but Jason Aaron spun gold with him during his Ghost Rider run.
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Sep 6, 2017 03:40
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is that the one where his hands that are babies were bullying him and trying to drown him in his cereal
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Sep 6, 2017 03:50
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Rhyno posted:MP might be terrible here but Jason Aaron spun gold with him during his Ghost Rider run. What of what I said implies that I think the Master is terrible? On the contrary. There's some sketchiness in the Englehart WCA stuff but from memory it doesn't get full on awful until Byrne comes aboard to do his usual demolition job. Actually I think it might be the first example of him writing with a grudge towards a fictional character. Aaron also used him in Doctor Strange btw One of the first comics I ever read came out of the WCA stuff, it was the issue of Solo Avengers where Moon Knight fights the Shroud in Strahd von Zarovich's castle from D&D, who then tries to recruit him for a team of supernaturals that includes Jack Russell, evil jugglers, the greatest jobbers ever (the Brothers Grimm) and a guy with a shovel. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Sep 6, 2017 |
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Sep 6, 2017 03:54
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quite stretched out posted:is that the one where his hands that are babies were bullying him and trying to drown him in his cereal  
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Sep 6, 2017 04:50
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I think Avengers was the first comic where Byrne's "FRAMERS INTENT" bullshit really reared its ugly head. I'm not sure if it was because he was so proud that he got to MODERNIZE THE FANTASTIC FOUR *AND* SUPERMAN FOR THE 1980s or if he just got cranky but practically every big two project he's done since West Coast Avengers is basically built solely on "the only true version of any character is the one the creators debuted in the first issue and any hack fanboy writers since then who have come along since then have perverted the creators' legacy and as the one true heir to Jack Kirby no one else can know what that intent truly is so if I change things it's okay"! Which is why his West Coast Avengers basically reverses everyone and their brother's (literally) characterization along the lines of... - Vision was an unemotional scary robot in his first appearance, why isn't he that now? FRAMERS INTENT - Also Vision wasn't built out of Jim Hammond's robot body in his first appearance, and he isn't now! FRAMERS INTENT - Also Scarlet Witch and Vision having kids? NOPE - Also Scarlet Witch was Magneto's lackey in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants in her first appearances, along with Quicksilver, so you best believe they will be again! - What do you MEAN Magneto isn't an evil leader of the Brotherhood anymore? He definitely is now, motherfuckers! - Also Hawkeye is a hotheaded guy not cut out to lead poo poo because that's what he was thirty years ago, plus USAgent is a real jingoist racist rear end in a top hat because I respect Mark Gruenwald's writing in 1987 but not this Mark Gruenwald rear end in a top hat's perversion of Mark Gruenwald's character in 1988-1989 He got more explicit with it in later books, but it was just a wrecking ball in West Coast Avengers considering he was on the book for less than two years. He also made Tigra inexplicably go feral and incapable of speech or complex thought, shrunk her down to the size of a kitten, then had her run off into the woods, never to be seen again in his first issue. Which probably pleased at least a few people in this thread.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:04
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There's tons of that poo poo in his issues of Marvel Two-in-One. They're also the only lovely issues of Marvel Two-in-One.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:08
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That sounds oddly specifically like that one really bad She-Hulk arc where Slott had her literally run around with a Handbook of the Marvel Universe, correcting continuity errors and saying that anything that had happened in other books that Slott didn't agree with had actually been done by dopplegangers visiting from alternate universes, so that from now on if something out of character happens, you know it's because some A-hole idiot couldn't be bothered to read their handbook, doh hoh hoh hoh hoh.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:33
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Since we're on the subject of Byrne being a dick please recall that not very long after Kirby's passing, Byrne made a big scene about how he was being pressured into "picking up the mantle" that Jack had left vacant. And I don't recall who it was but another creator at the panel said "Nobody is talking about that except you John." And he then sat in silent rage for the remainder of the panel. It was wonderful. Edit: By "not long" i guess it was actually close to three years since this would have been in 1997 or 1998.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:35
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CapnAndy posted:That sounds oddly specifically like that one really bad She-Hulk arc where Slott had her literally run around with a Handbook of the Marvel Universe, correcting continuity errors and saying that anything that had happened in other books that Slott didn't agree with had actually been done by dopplegangers visiting from alternate universes, so that from now on if something out of character happens, you know it's because some A-hole idiot couldn't be bothered to read their handbook, doh hoh hoh hoh hoh. It's Dan Slott so I dunno but that might have been a joke based on how Byrne made every occurrence of Dr Doom doing anything bad or being defeated into a Doombot, an earlier example of his continuity cop tendencies actually Rhyno posted:Since we're on the subject of Byrne being a dick please recall that not very long after Kirby's passing, Byrne made a big scene about how he was being pressured into "picking up the mantle" that Jack had left vacant. And I don't recall who it was but another creator at the panel said "Nobody is talking about that except you John." And he then sat in silent rage for the remainder of the panel. gently caress him
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Sep 6, 2017 06:29
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