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chiasaur11 posted:I'm leaning towards Amida, personally. Three year old suit against an ace in the best mobile suit made since the war, and she makes her opponent feel like a joke. True, but the Hyakuren is at least a fundamentally decent suit, and hers is a special, souped-up version. Galan is practically Chirico-like in the gap between his suit quality and combat performance. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 18:10
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Julieta and Io have the same problem: They're insanely good pilots in ace suits but are primarily matched against someone who is literally brain-linked to their suit. They still go toe-to-toe until they lose.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:14
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Gaius Marius posted:I'd still rather fight Mika then cca amuro, he was so competent in that movie that he clowned char without even paying attention to him half the time, he was just on a different level in that movie Yeah he straight murders Gyunei without even addressing the dude, doesn't he? Amuro owns.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:16
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McGillis is better than Julietta but Julietta's growth is frankly nuts. McGillis is the Char (lol) and begins at a high skill level but several other pilots show they have the potential to eclipse him if things keep going. Julieta chosing to forego easy power is significant because she is probably the one person in the settnig who you can unironically go "yeah, she probably could take Mika if she AV'd up." It gives her decision actual weight because rather than it being an Ein situation entirely it really is her choosing to turn down becoming probably the single strongest pilot in the setting for her own reasons.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:19
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MonsieurChoc posted:Them's fighting words! To clarify: In all of the other materials generated tangential to F91, the characters are fine. In just the F91 movie, they're all pretty bad because the movie is literally a hamfisted attempt to squeeze a 49-episode series into an 1.5 hour-long movie. The only one who gets even a lick of characterization is Iron Mask, although he gets points for no-selling a sniper shot to the head during his speech. Gaius Marius posted:I'd still rather fight Mika then cca amuro, he was so competent in that movie that he clowned char without even paying attention to him half the time, he was just on a different level in that movie Char's critical error in that movie was believing that Amuro couldn't possibly defeat him in the Re-GZ, so he had to give him equal footing. The error was that Amuro had equal footing in just the Re-GZ. Best Gundam character, though (aside from Klim)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HRWAT9LXYk&t=63s 
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Sep 1, 2017 20:46
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ImpAtom posted:An important thing to note about Mika: in universe, there are no pilots on his level. that they had to loving bombard him from space to actually kill him says a lot whether he can go up against whoever else doesn't really matter to me, but mika is absolutely far and away the best pilot in ibo
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Sep 1, 2017 21:22
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Manatee Cannon posted:in universe, there are no pilots on his level. that they had to loving bombard him from space to actually kill him says a lot As I said, I think it depends on what you mean by best pilot. Mika is the deadliest pilot for certain but a good portion of that is because he has almost no self preservation instinct and is quite literally willing to murder himself to kill his enemy, either in the theoretical sense (double-killing with Lafter) or in the literal sense (Overclocking Barbatos until his body gives out.) This makes him incredibly scary to fight but also isn't the same as being the best pilot. It means that at his very best, when he's willing to burn himself out to do it, he's the absolute deadliest thing in the setting but that is because he's willing to effectively sacrifice himself and has a machine oriented to doing that rather than that he's actually the best pilot. I genuinely feel like if you have Mika a Graze, even an AV-customized Graze like Shino had, he would still be a terrifying dude to fight (especially for the S1 guys who have no experience at all, which is why Shino can succeed) but he wouldn't be the terrible monster he is in Barbatos. The Lu Bu of IBO we get is basically an ideal combination of pilot, machine and complete disregard for both. Without all three I genuinely think he'd be pressed pretty hard by some of the Turbines, Julieta, McGillis and maybe even later-series Galio, though I obviously don't think he's worse than all of them.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:46
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I mean sure he'd be worse if you gave him a shittier machine or took away the av system, but that's like saying amuro's only a good pilot because he's a newtype with a gundam and he wouldn't be as scary if you took either or both away. it's true I guess but that's not true to what happens in the story and going all out with the av system is something that literally only he has shown himself capable of doing. other pilots using both are in the series and they can't compare, not even ein after literally fusing with his machine and being given a bigger, stronger gundam than barbatos
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Sep 1, 2017 21:51
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Manatee Cannon posted:I mean sure he'd be worse if you gave him a shittier machine or took away the av system, but that's like saying amuro's only a good pilot because he's a newtype with a gundam and he wouldn't be as scary if you took either or both away. it's true I guess but that's not true to what happens in the story It isn't though. Amuro Ray is an exceptionally good pilot regardless of the machine he is in. His machine amplifies his abilities but we're shown repeatedly that he's able to far outstrip the capabilities of his machine beyond the very early part of the show where he relies on it. Some of that is indeed his newtype abilities but those are a part of who he is and at best he runs into the problem of outperforming his machine. It doesn't matter if he's in a GM, a DIjeh or an ReGZ, Amuro is a significant pilot who stands on his own. ' This doesn't mean "Mika sucks and is crappy" but that Mika's danger doesn't rely in raw piloting talent. He relies on being extremely hosed up. Every Gundam pilot to some degree relies on their machine but that is why "what if they didn't have the uber-Gundam?" is a question. Nobody is going to say Banagher or Loran are the best Gundam pilots because their machines are the strongest (in theory) after all. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 21:58
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mika does well in the tank thing at the start of the show in the same way amuro does when he's in w/e that thing was called in z amuro does still do worse in those than he does in the gundam tho, which is the same
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Sep 1, 2017 22:19
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I think that still has the AV system as a major factor though. The AV system is like playing with mouse and keyboard against controller players and no autoaim.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:27
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amuro's still a newtype in a gm
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Sep 1, 2017 22:28
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Manatee Cannon posted:mika does well in the tank thing at the start of the show in the same way amuro does when he's in w/e that thing was called in z That's not really remotely the same at all, no. Amuro performs more poorly in a worse suit the way everyone does but among good pilots in UC it's usually only a pilot of near-equal piloting skill (or absurd Newtype hax) in a superior suit that can really push the very talented pilots even in worse machines. Original Gundam Amuro literally begins to outperform his machine and they have to frantically update it to keep up with his abilities. He's basically the surest example Gundam has of a pilot who is as skilled as he is piloting a god-hax machine. There's no real good examples in IBO of Mika being an exceptionally talented pilot. A dangerous one certainly and better than most pilots in the setting certainly but this is a setting that makes constant and frequent in-setting examples of the enemy pilots being untrained, inept or otherwise not very good fighters. It's an actual plot point in the setting. Amuro is going up against trained ace pilots with more experience than him. Mika is killing people who legitimately think they need to do dramatic poses before they attack. Once he starts going up against seriously talented fighters and enemies he gets pushed really hard despite almost always having a technological advantage on his foe. Manatee Cannon posted:amuro's still a newtype in a gm Correct, but you can't really take that away from him. It's part of his piloting skills and he'll have it in anything. Mika can only function at his best in an AV-equipped suit. Which again isn't a bad thing. "This pilot is strong in the situation that makes sense for him as a character" isn't an insult. Having the highest power level isn't the same as being a good and thematically well-developed fighter. Mika is a brutish murderer in a setting that has forgotten war and so he's deadly because he's increasingly a wild beast who gives no poo poo. That's a lot more interesting than merely being the best pilot.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:31
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ImpAtom posted:As I said, I think it depends on what you mean by best pilot. I think, ironically, you're underrating him because he's such a loving human threshing machine. Mika in his Gundam is the scariest thing in the setting, yes. But it's noted that, even aside from having the best connection to the best suit, he's exceptional. The first half of Hush's arc is realizing that, even aside from the whiskers and the mech, Mika's death on two legs. (The back half is a parallel with Julieta to show just why you shouldn't try to be Mikazuki) Show makes a point of mentioning that Mikazuki uses less fuel than anyone else to outmaneuver everyone. He gets mobile suit combat in a way even the experts don't. Julietta was talented, yes. And, if she had the surgery, she might be on Mika's level. (It let Ein rip through Lafter and Azee, and Ein wasn't a patch on Julieta's as a combat pilot) But it's all potential there, no kinetic, because Julietta decided not to burn her life away for a shot at the top, and that leaves Amida's star performance at the top of the board for standard pilots (Julietta would be dead five times over if she was piloting anything but the best armored suit in the setting, and Julietta's no slouch) and Mikazuki as the devil himself.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:35
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the only conclusive way to answer this Arumo v Mika argument is to wait for Gundam Verses™ available September 29th on on the PlayStation®4 and run a best of 100 series matches with cpus
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Sep 1, 2017 23:04
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So who would win: Mika's AV system and utterly ruthless combat skills, or Domon's trace system and super kung-fu?
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Sep 1, 2017 23:09
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Domon is like a DBZ character, so...
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Sep 1, 2017 23:11
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This is Domon without even using a mobile suit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2LVZCJz-M It's not even remotely a contest. No one, not even Amuro, is remotely a contest to the guys in G-Gundam.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:19
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Lord Koth posted:This is Domon without even using a mobile suit: I dunno. I think Corrin's Kapool has a chance.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:22
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chiasaur11 posted:I dunno. I think Corrin's Kapool has a chance. Nah, not even a rocket punch can beat the burger king.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:29
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Lord Koth posted:This is Domon without even using a mobile suit: 1)Domon 2)Amuro 3)Mika OR 1)Domon 2)Mika "I am going to beat this robot dragon" 3)Amuro
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Sep 2, 2017 01:07
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Mika is a pretty good pilot but what he excels at is killing the other guy no matter the cost. If you have anything that doesn't require the complete annihilation of the enemy then Amida is the best pilot in IBO. If you absolutely need a dude dead and don't care if this will be the last time your guy comes back or not, then its that little whirlwind of death every time.
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Sep 2, 2017 01:51
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Shinjobi posted:1)Domon Don't forget Bellri: he's not that great a pilot, but somehow he'll straight murder anyone in his way. He's some kind of murder-buddha.
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Sep 2, 2017 05:05
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A bit late to the best character chat, but mine is definitely Haman.  Haman has got the best outfits and the most stylish mobile suit.  Her VA is fantastic, and Silent Voice is a pretty good villain song. She's cunning and incredibly competent and her plan to get into power actually worked. Like, the only reason the remnants of the AEUG even stood a chance was because they had the Gundam team, and Haman was later busy dealing with a sudden uprising from that loving creep Glemy.That, and there's this tragic side to her. For all her success, it still feels shallow since she doesn't have any meaningful human connections. She's only got subordinates, and her Newtype senses are practically screaming at her to find a friend. But in the end of the series her pride can't reconcile that finally reaching out to Judau would mean living with everything she's worked hard for in ruins, so she chose to destroy herself.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:20
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Her cameo at the end of 0083 and her decision to abandon Delaz's neo nazi fleet was also one of the good parts of that show.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:33
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amigolupus posted:A bit late to the best character chat, but mine is definitely Haman. Well, she had it easier since the Federation had decided to ramp up their usual self destructive, morally bankrupt, and idiotic tendencies to somewhere around twelve. Like, the Char's Counterattack era Federation, the one that goes "You dropped a colony on us! Here. Have a colony in exchange for saying you won't drop it on us. No crossing your fingers now!" is a massive step up in competence.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:33
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ImpAtom posted:It isn't though. Amuro Ray is an exceptionally good pilot regardless of the machine he is in. His machine amplifies his abilities but we're shown repeatedly that he's able to far outstrip the capabilities of his machine beyond the very early part of the show where he relies on it. Some of that is indeed his newtype abilities but those are a part of who he is and at best he runs into the problem of outperforming his machine. It doesn't matter if he's in a GM, a DIjeh or an ReGZ, Amuro is a significant pilot who stands on his own. ' CCA Amuro, terrifying death machine that he is, would have gotten tossed in the dumpster by Char if he was stuck in the ReGZ for the final conflict. We got an inkling of that early on before he retrieved the Nu. It doesn't matter if you're the best Go Kart driver in the world if your opponent shows up on race day driving an F1 car. Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Sep 2, 2017 |
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Sep 2, 2017 06:40
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Guy Goodbody posted:But who is the best Gundam character 4 way tie between Bernie Wiseman, Sochie, Allenby, and Jerid. Also I am sad I was away to not defend the poor children duo of Katz and Hathaway.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:43
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Katz was a hero worshipping idiot and Hathaway is emblematic of all the problems and neglect children born post OYW have to face in UC. And he's also an idiot. And then he became a terrorist.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:56
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Please don't be mean to my poor idiotic boys they mean well.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:11
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chiasaur11 posted:Well, she had it easier since the Federation had decided to ramp up their usual self destructive, morally bankrupt, and idiotic tendencies to somewhere around twelve. Yeah, that's true. Giving carte blanche to the Titans has got to be one of the most boneheaded decisions ever made. But Haman's crafty enough that she could still run rings around the Federation by CCA. And I really liked the scene in ZZ where Bright introduced Judau to the Federation leaders. They're having a fancy dinner and laughing when Dublin had just had a colony drop over it and Judau just snaps. Dude leaps up the table and starts wrecking poo poo and calling them out for being such colossal awful gently caress-ups. 
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Sep 2, 2017 07:22
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I will hate Katz forever. Forever and ever. To infinity.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:23
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Kanos posted:CCA Amuro, terrifying death machine that he is, would have gotten tossed in the dumpster by Char if he was stuck in the ReGZ for the final conflict. We got an inkling of that early on before he retrieved the Nu. Yes, but at that point you're talking about Amuro going up against one of the other best pilots in the setting in an unambigiously superior suit. If it was Amuro in ReGZ vs Char in ReGZ then it would be a different story.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:26
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amigolupus posted:Yeah, that's true. Giving carte blanche to the Titans has got to be one of the most boneheaded decisions ever made. But Haman's crafty enough that she could still run rings around the Federation by CCA. The Titans are a better call than anything in ZZ. I can see the reasoning behind the Titans. Bad call, sure, but you have a real problem and an understandable desire to just leave it to the people who seem to have it under control. Double Zeta is declaring peace with the enemy as they are bombing your cities. Not even surrender. But just, you know, shrugging and going "Eh, sure. I don't see a problem with you dropping colonies on us." It's having someone at war with you and just kind of... ignoring it. I really don't understand the Federation's behavior in ZZ. Like, even from a morally bankrupt and mostly stupid prospective, once someone's started shooting at you with no intent declared to stop, you should do something about it, yes?
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Sep 2, 2017 09:57
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chiasaur11 posted:The Titans are a better call than anything in ZZ. They already surrendered by the time Judau and the gang visited Dakar. The ones they meet in Dublin are straight-up quislings.
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Sep 2, 2017 10:00
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Darth Walrus posted:They already surrendered by the time Judau and the gang visited Dakar. The ones they meet in Dublin are straight-up quislings. Right, that makes somewhat more sense. Still a remarkable lowpoint, even by UC standards. Most of the time, even the most corrupt Federation officials have the self preservation instincts God gave Iok.
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Sep 2, 2017 10:45
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chiasaur11 posted:The Titans are a better call than anything in ZZ. The important thing to realize is that there was no real organized military force of significant power that was in any condition to resist the completely fresh and insanely powerful/numerous Axis Fleet. The events of Zeta were effectively a giant civil war in the Federation between two factions who had pretty much all of the Federation's trained pilots and cutting-edge military hardware, and both of them pretty much annihilated each other while leaving the Axis Fleet entirely intact. ZZ takes place directly after the climax of Zeta with no breathing room for recovery, so the last remaining dregs of resistance to Haman's gigantic, powerful army are some now-horribly-outdated mobile suits on the Argama and a few independent organizations like Karaba, which are nowhere near enough to actually make a difference. The Federation leadership has pretty much checked out at this point because there's nothing they can actually do to stop it, so they might as well enjoy themselves and/or collaborate. If not for Glemy being a moron and all of the people who decided to follow him being even bigger morons, Haman would have pretty effortlessly conquered everything.
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Sep 2, 2017 10:50
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Kanos posted:The events of Zeta were effectively a giant civil war in the Federation between two factions who had pretty much all of the Federation's trained pilots and cutting-edge military hardware, and both of them pretty much annihilated each other while leaving the Axis Fleet entirely intact. Pretty much this. It's not that they don't want to fight, it's more that they don't have much forces left to fight back. I don't remember clearly, but was it shown that the Federation were trying to secretly rebuild their forces while they were negotiating the surrender, or did they really leave everything up to the Nahel Argama? And how in the world did Glemy of all people got that much clout in the first place? I know there's the story of him being a stand-in for Char since Char was going to appear in CCA, but was there any in-universe explanation why they'd follow a creep like him?
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Sep 2, 2017 11:20
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amigolupus posted:Pretty much this. It's not that they don't want to fight, it's more that they don't have much forces left to fight back. I don't remember clearly, but was it shown that the Federation were trying to secretly rebuild their forces while they were negotiating the surrender, or did they really leave everything up to the Nahel Argama? Money and family connections. Basically, he was a rich, photogenic rear end in a top hat who Zabi loyalists rallied around because Mineva was extremely obviously Haman's puppet (and because she wasn't giving them a share of the pie). It's also mentioned in supplementary materials that he might be Gihren's bastard son.
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Sep 2, 2017 11:27
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amigolupus posted:And how in the world did Glemy of all people got that much clout in the first place? I know there's the story of him being a stand-in for Char since Char was going to appear in CCA, but was there any in-universe explanation why they'd follow a creep like him? He blessed the rains down in Africa.
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Sep 2, 2017 11:30
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