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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The democrats are a waste

Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed.
B		77	25.50%
K		160	52.98%
M		65	21.52%
Total:		229 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

William Contraalto posted:

It's pretty simple. You and all the hateful people can self-segregate away into random basement meetings and hooking up with neo-Nazis, but you can't enforce your beliefs about who constitutes a woman on the rest of humanity. You also can't do this while serving the public, so you can't conspire to murder all trans people by taking over shelters and support groups.

I guess if you believed that freedom of association extended to murdering people you don't like, you might believe this to be true, which explains very well why "leftist" transphobes cozy up to fascists.

I think women have the right to determine what a woman is and who they associate with, and that doesn't somehow legalize murder.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:36

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# ? May 20, 2024 17:55

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Sneakster's a troll btw, folks.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:37

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

I think women have the right to determine what a woman is and who they associate with, and that doesn't somehow legalize murder.

Hmm, and now you've switched to arguing that white women should be allowed to exclude women of color... Fascinating.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:38

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Majorian posted:

Sneakster's a troll btw, folks.

Disagreeing with people doesn't make you troll.

Jizz Festival posted:

Private TERF clubs and whatnot are not a part of that, neither is the dating lives of lesbians.

If it's illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex, a terf club by definition can't legally exist. The basic human rights of gay people, eh, whatever, just dating.

William Contraalto posted:

Hmm, and now you've switched to arguing that white women should be allowed to exclude women of color... Fascinating.

Dismantling women's rights makes you the good guy, every form of discrimination from women's shelters to progressive taxation and not drinking Drano is racism.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:44

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

If it's illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex, a terf club by definition can't legally exist. The basic human rights of gay people, eh, whatever, just dating.

Dismantling women's rights makes you the good guy, every form of discrimination from women's shelters to progressive taxation and not drinking Drano is racism.

It ain't my fault you're too cowardly to come out and say what you really mean, and instead end up saying things that leave the door open to discriminating by race, by sexual orientation, by ability, or by class. Granted, given the gold-star obsession of your ilk, you're probably fine with the second one lol.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:47

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Sneakster posted:

If it's illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex, a terf club by definition can't legally exist. The basic human rights of gay people, eh, whatever, just dating.

Illegal to discriminate in public business and poo poo, as in to exclude people from public life. If it was actually illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex in all areas, there would be no women-only spaces already. That's why I've been talking about trans people being fired, or denied housing and services.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:50

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Jizz Festival posted:

If it was actually illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex in all areas, there would be no women-only spaces already.

There's a concerted effort to dismantle women's rights to physical autonomy, and asserting that lesbians have no right to association is essentially the point of not allowing them to discriminate against cis men. I don't think eroding their legal rights further is acceptable because it isn't "already" worse.

William Contraalto posted:

It ain't my fault you're too cowardly to come out and say what you really mean, and instead end up saying things that leave the door open to discriminating by race, by sexual orientation, by ability, or by class.

I think women have the right to exist as a distinct legal entity with the right to association. I think women have the right to refuse cis-men intruding into their space. I'm not sure how a legal framework can exist that simultaneously protects women's rights and trans rights. I'm not concerned with trans men want to participate in cis men's space, but men aren't physically and socially subjugated by women, so it's not a pressing concern to me.

William Contraalto posted:

Granted, given the gold-star obsession of your ilk, you're probably fine with the second one lol.

...what? I don't know what this means or what ilk you're associating me with. I assume you're implying something right wing, but I'm not, nor is it insane or advocating murder to assert that women have the right to discriminate against cis men.

Supporting feminism over liberalism doesn't make you a nazi.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:08

Grognan: Jan 23, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Dude, this might not be the thread for this and I'm not sure what tanget you are trying to prove here.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:10

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

There's a concerted effort to dismantle women's rights to physical autonomy, and asserting that lesbians have no right to association is essentially the point of not allowing them to discriminate against cis men. I don't think eroding their legal rights further is acceptable because it isn't "already" worse.

I think women have the right to exist as a distinct legal entity with the right to association. I think women have the right to refuse cis-men intruding into their space. I'm not sure how a legal framework can exist that simultaneously protects women's rights and trans rights. I'm not concerned with trans men want to participate in cis men's space, but men aren't physically and socially subjugated by women, so it's not a pressing concern to me.

...what? I don't know what this means or what ilk you're associating me with. I assume you're implying something right wing, but I'm not, nor is it insane or advocating murder to assert that women have the right to discriminate against cis men.

Supporting feminism over liberalism doesn't make you a nazi.

This is a thread where people post about how identity politics is bad, a distraction, killing the Democratic Party, people are openly shielding you, and you still don't have the guts to openly say what you want to say. Pitiful.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:11

Motto: Aug 3, 2013

I think he keeps referring to trans people as cis so I can't understand what he's saying at all.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:12

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Motto posted:

I think he keeps referring to trans people as cis so I can't understand what he's saying at all.

Imagine if someone even dumber than the typical transphobe decided to try and play their game of pretending to be reasonable, and you can understand their posts completely in that light.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:13

Syenite: Jun 21, 2011; Grimey Drawer

Well, they are a low effort troll who's pretty much just browsing TERF sites and copy-pasting arguments that sound right.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:17

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Sneakster posted:

There's a concerted effort to dismantle women's rights to physical autonomy, and asserting that lesbians have no right to association is essentially the point of not allowing them to discriminate against cis men. I don't think eroding their legal rights further is acceptable because it isn't "already" worse.

I think women have the right to exist as a distinct legal entity with the right to association. I think women have the right to refuse cis-men intruding into their space. I'm not sure how a legal framework can exist that simultaneously protects women's rights and trans rights. I'm not concerned with trans men want to participate in cis men's space, but men aren't physically and socially subjugated by women, so it's not a pressing concern to me.

...what? I don't know what this means or what ilk you're associating me with. I assume you're implying something right wing, but I'm not, nor is it insane or advocating murder to assert that women have the right to discriminate against cis men.

Supporting feminism over liberalism doesn't make you a nazi.

Seek help, seriously. It's like you're incapable of understanding what people are trying to tell you.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:20

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Jizz Festival posted:

Also nobody is going to force lesbians to date trans women. This is the dumbest poo poo and I think you've got a real weird view of the world, sneakster.

There is already social campaigning against lesbians not interested in conversion therapy, we're talking currently happening, not hypothetical.

Grognan posted:

Dude, this might not be the thread for this and I'm not sure what tanget you are trying to prove here.

Liberals will dismantle women's rights for the MRA votes was the point.

William Contraalto posted:

This is a thread where people post about how identity politics is bad, a distraction, killing the Democratic Party, people are openly shielding you, and you still don't have the guts to openly say what you want to say. Pitiful.

I agree with your sentiment, even I'm not comfortable with my position, but imagine for just a minute, that I was a feminist, and this meant supporting women's rights, and that those may not be reconcilable with cis men's rights as trans women. If you want to assert feminism is the real problem with society, you're going to have to do better than calling it radical.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:25

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

There is already social campaigning against lesbians not interested in conversion therapy, we're talking currently happening, not hypothetical.

Liberals will dismantle women's rights for the MRA votes was the point.

I agree with your sentiment, even I'm not comfortable with my position, but imagine for just a minute, that I was a feminist, and this meant supporting women's rights, and that those may not be reconcilable with cis men's rights as trans women. If you want to assert feminism is the real problem with society, you're going to have to do better than calling it radical.

This is so contemptibly bad. You're going out and saying "cis men's rights as trans women", for chrissakes! Don't they teach you how to phrase things in transphobe school, Bruno?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:27

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Motto posted:

I think he keeps referring to trans people as cis so I can't understand what he's saying at all.

Blame the mixup word salad needed to not set off the the guy saying trans women don't have a right to women's shelters means I'm part of a plot to murder them.

Shukaro posted:

Well, they are a low effort troll who's pretty much just browsing TERF sites and copy-pasting arguments that sound right.

I don't think womens rights are radical, but hell, its communism to support a reduction in property subsidies, so who knows what words mean any more.

William Contraalto posted:

This is so contemptibly bad. You're going out and saying "cis men's rights as trans women", for chrissakes! Don't they teach you how to phrase things in transphobe school, Bruno?

... I don't catch the Bruno reference. You keep making references I'm not familiar with. You do realize its possible for people who disagree with liberalism to not be as completely disingenuous as liberals, right? Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm an agent of THE ADVERSARY, nor does being a feminist mean I'm part of a demonic coven out to steal your blood.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:40

Syenite: Jun 21, 2011; Grimey Drawer

Again, is a troll

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:45

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Shukaro posted:

Again, is a troll

And apparently a communist radical feminist for supporting taxes and women's rights. Nobody would actually support those things, has to be a troll.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:48

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

Blame the mixup word salad needed to not set off the the guy saying trans women don't have a right to women's shelters means I'm part of a plot to murder them.

I don't think womens rights are radical, but hell, its communism to support a reduction in property subsidies, so who knows what words mean any more.

... I don't catch the Bruno reference. You keep making references I'm not familiar with. You do realize its possible for people who disagree with liberalism to not be as completely disingenuous as liberals, right? Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm an agent of THE ADVERSARY, nor does being a feminist mean I'm part of a demonic coven out to steal your blood.

I highly doubt you're a feminist in any meaningful sense, but positioning transphobia as the truly radical politics here would be gutsy if you weren't so lovely at propaganda work. The next evolution of "homosexuality is bourgeois decadence", heh.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 03:58

Filipino Freakout: Mar 20, 2003; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/verrit/status/900476746448990209

Blistering hot truth, verrit says so

oh but wait you can't read the article because they're getting "DDOS'd"

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:01

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

William Contraalto posted:

I highly doubt you're a feminist in any meaningful sense, but positioning transphobia as the truly radical politics here would be gutsy if you weren't so lovely at propaganda work. The next evolution of "homosexuality is bourgeois decadence", heh.

I don't think feminism is radical, nor am I the one advocating for removing lesbians legal right to association without being pressured into conversion therapy because not being attracted to trans women makes them transphobic.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:07

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

I don't think feminism is radical, nor am I the one advocating for removing lesbians legal right to association without being pressured into conversion therapy because not being attracted to trans women makes them transphobic.

Okay, so you're opposed to liberalism, but you're also not a radical, so by definition you're some degree of right-winger. Now we just gotta pin you down to bog-standard conservative, fascist-adjacent, or full Nazi.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:11

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

William Contraalto posted:

Okay, so you're opposed to liberalism, but you're also not a radical, so by definition you're some degree of right-winger. Now we just gotta pin you down to bog-standard conservative, fascist-adjacent, or full Nazi.

Communist and feminist I suppose. I'm also marginally transgender and queer. I don't think men, even men that identify as women, and can pass at that, have a right to women's spaces. It's incredibly, disgustingly chauvinist and misogynistic to assert women's rights, which is what these legal considerations are, are just a flippant little thing to push aside for men that assert they have a right to them. I also don't think the morality of it is something anyone who's given it any thought can treat as a simple thing.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:21

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

William Contraalto posted:

I highly doubt you're a feminist in any meaningful sense, but positioning transphobia as the truly radical politics here would be gutsy if you weren't so lovely at propaganda work. The next evolution of "homosexuality is bourgeois decadence", heh.

Sexuality in general is a decadent affectation of the bourgeoisie comrade

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:24

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

Communist and feminist I suppose. I'm also marginally transgender and queer. I don't think men, even men that identify as women, and can pass at that, have a right to women's spaces. It's incredibly, disgustingly chauvinist and misogynistic to assert women's rights, which is what these legal considerations are, are just a flippant little thing to push aside for men that assert they have a right to them. I also don't think the morality of it is something anyone who's given it any thought can treat as a simple thing.

Okay, so you're lying about being trans in an extremely clumsy way, or you're in need of immediate psychiatric intervention. So, having established you are a liar or operating under a dangerous level of clinical depression, the question becomes, "why should anyone listen to you?" and I'm sure you'll grunt out some semicoherent blather about liberalism!!! women's rights!!!!! transness isn't real!!!!!!! in response to this extremely salient question.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:24

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Sneakster posted:

Communist and feminist I suppose. I'm also marginally transgender and queer. I don't think men, even men that identify as women, and can pass at that, have a right to women's spaces. It's incredibly, disgustingly chauvinist and misogynistic to assert women's rights, which is what these legal considerations are, are just a flippant little thing to push aside for men that assert they have a right to them. I also don't think the morality of it is something anyone who's given it any thought can treat as a simple thing.

Ah yes I believe that you're not a transphobe guy who refers to trans women as men

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:26

EugeneJ: Feb 5, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

It's almost like....they planned this

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/startup-blames-hackers-tanking-site-clinton-plug-article-1.3466724

quote:

A left-wing meme factory aimed at combating Trump�s alternative facts was slapped with a hack attack Sunday after garnering an endorsement from Hillary Clinton.

Starter founder and Democratic operative Peter Daou said his website, Verrit, went offline because of a suspected distributed denial-of-service attack following the former presidential candidate�s glowing review.

"Hillary Clinton endorsed @Verrit, our new media platform, an hour ago and we've already been subjected to a denial-of-service attack," Daou tweeted. "We're working on restoring it ASAP."

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:26

EugeneJ: Feb 5, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Or maybe this happened:

https://twitter.com/Tinghansier/status/904546028736667648

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:29

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

William Contraalto posted:

Okay, so you're lying about being trans in an extremely clumsy way, or you're in need of immediate psychiatric intervention. So, having established you are a liar or operating under a dangerous level of clinical depression, the question becomes, "why should anyone listen to you?" and I'm sure you'll grunt out some semicoherent blather about liberalism!!! women's rights!!!!! transness isn't real!!!!!!! in response to this extremely salient question.

No sane human being can take a sober look at the world without having some form of depression.

It might be the case that, even if you relate more to female gender norms, you're smaller than most women, pass for a girl without trying, feel explicitly uncomfortable presenting as male, are pretty much only considered approachable by girls who range from kind of gay to just gay, and are given uncomfortable attention from "straight" men, you still don't have an explicit right to intrude on women's spaces.

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Ah yes I believe that you're not a transphobe guy who refers to trans women as men

Maybe I'm transgendered and think that doesn't give me the right to women's spaces, and even if I psychologically identify with and short of a uterus practically am one, doesn't change that I don't have the right to assert control over them.

It could perhaps be the case that women are physically subjugated due to their role in procreation and stature, and that their legal rights as a class of people take precedence over my right to assert that I should be allowed in their spaces because that's the morally right thing.

Maybe I even see being used as an excuse to dismantle their rights as a sickening thing that I'm morally obligated to oppose out of human decency.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:49

Mokelumne Trekka: Nov 22, 2015; Soon.

I'm somewhat concerned that Hillary is going to run again, and I wouldn't put it past the Democratic voters to be on board. I can hear "Fight Song" playing with confetti again.

This infighting between moderates and progressives is bad, but the moderates just aren't budging on anything and it is asinine. Kamela Harris is adopting some Bernie ideas like Medicare for All, maybe that's a sign that they'll at least pretend.

Mokelumne Trekka fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 04:49

William Contraalto: Aug 23, 2017; by Smythe

Sneakster posted:

No sane human being can take a sober look at the world without having some form of depression.

It might be the case that, even if you relate more to female gender norms, you're smaller than most women, pass for a girl without trying, feel explicitly uncomfortable presenting as male, are pretty much only considered approachable by girls who range from kind of gay to just gay, and are given uncomfortable attention from "straight" men, you still don't have an explicit right to intrude on women's spaces.

I am playing a really tiny violin right now. Seriously, this thing is infinitesimal.

quote:

Maybe I'm transgendered and think that doesn't give me the right to women's spaces, and even if I psychologically identify with and short of a uterus practically am one, doesn't change that I don't have the right to assert control over them.

It could perhaps be the case that women are physically subjugated due to their role in procreation and stature, and that their legal rights as a class of people take precedence over my right to assert that I should be allowed in their spaces because that's the morally right thing.

Maybe I even see being used as an excuse to dismantle their rights as a sickening thing that I'm morally obligated to oppose out of human decency.

Maybe you're really bad at lying.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:01

Grognan: Jan 23, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Sneakster posted:

I don't think feminism is radical, nor am I the one advocating for removing lesbians legal right to association without being pressured into conversion therapy because not being attracted to trans women makes them transphobic.

Jesus, start your own thread to discuss this and where you are starting from because you are either a tremendous autismal pendant or just a troll. Either way things would be better if you moved it to its own thread.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:26

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Filipino Freakout posted:

https://twitter.com/verrit/status/900476746448990209

Blistering hot truth, verrit says so

oh but wait you can't read the article because they're getting "DDOS'd"

it's not surprising that hillary keeps punching left long after her campaign is dead, but i thought we were supposed to unite? you don't see bernie attacking hillary like this!

what is with hillary and trying to tear the democratic party apart? she intentionally stoked factionalism with her whole "berniebros" spiel (and obamaboys in 2008). how is she so ruthlessly hungry for power that she will chop her own party into pieces so she has a chance to be the dem candidate? does it not bother her that doing so hurts her chances of becoming president, or does she just think she can demand the people she was insulting and attacking vote for her?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:29

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Unite to Liberals/Neo-Liberals = Capitulate to us and shut the gently caress up.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:32

Sneakster: Jul 13, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Mokelumne Trekka posted:

This infighting between moderates and progressives is bad, but the moderates just aren't budging on anything and it is asinine. Kamela Harris is adopting some Bernie ideas like Medicare for All, maybe that's a sign that they'll at least pretend.

The liberals are against people who are against fascists while the old guard is dying off. I think we're at the start of a political Earthquake.

William Contraalto posted:

Maybe you're really bad at lying.

You're right. Lies, all of it. I'm a 6`4 rock jawed man of men, heterosexual men don't get uncomfortably hostile with me due to some confused gay panic sentiment making places like mens shelters explicitly more dangerous, women have no right to refuse my wants, lesbians should be coerced into sleeping with me via in an environment that stigmatizes them for not considering me as a sexual partner appropriate for their organizing (especially teenagers at university meeting potential partners for the first time, those trans phobic bigots really need to know what their missing out on), and any diversion from gender norms I have give me a right to assert that women have no right to refuse my demands.

That, or what I said was uncomfortably honest, and you're an rear end in a top hat with no morals.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:32

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

I'd actually be gleeful to see Abuela run again in 2020 and happily vote for Trump again over her.

Crossing my fingers because there'll be more schadenfreude than some soulless minority token like Harris.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:33

Mokelumne Trekka: Nov 22, 2015; Soon.

This Verrit thing looks like something from Hillarys 2016 campaign.

I guess the concept is a filter that blocks fake news. But it is obviously partisan. Hillary claiming truth and verified data as her cause is like Al Gore with climate change. Once these dead horses claim a cause, it is tainted by their baggage. They have Messiah complexes and won't gently caress off. Seriously, they need to go away. Dem Party needs new faces.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:35

Oneiros: Jan 12, 2007

Condiv posted:

it's not surprising that hillary keeps punching left long after her campaign is dead, but i thought we were supposed to unite? you don't see bernie attacking hillary like this!

what is with hillary and trying to tear the democratic party apart? she intentionally stoked factionalism with her whole "berniebros" spiel (and obamaboys in 2008). how is she so ruthlessly hungry for power that she will chop her own party into pieces so she has a chance to be the dem candidate? does it not bother her that doing so hurts her chances of becoming president, or does she just think she can demand the people she was insulting and attacking vote for her?

Don�t you see, it was her turn to be president! Why can�t those loving leftists just fall in line and do their duty?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:35

joepinetree: Apr 5, 2012

Condiv posted:

it's not surprising that hillary keeps punching left long after her campaign is dead, but i thought we were supposed to unite? you don't see bernie attacking hillary like this!

what is with hillary and trying to tear the democratic party apart? she intentionally stoked factionalism with her whole "berniebros" spiel (and obamaboys in 2008). how is she so ruthlessly hungry for power that she will chop her own party into pieces so she has a chance to be the dem candidate? does it not bother her that doing so hurts her chances of becoming president, or does she just think she can demand the people she was insulting and attacking vote for her?

I don't think it's even so much her. But do you think Daou, Mook, Blumenthal would ever get a job or anywhere close to a position of power or influence if Clinton got away from politics entirely? The people punching left the hardest are the same people who would instantly be out of jobs if the party moved left.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:35

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# ? May 20, 2024 17:55

Mister Facetious: Apr 21, 2007; I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

Condiv posted:

it's not surprising that hillary keeps punching left long after her campaign is dead, but i thought we were supposed to unite? you don't see bernie attacking hillary like this!

what is with hillary and trying to tear the democratic party apart? she intentionally stoked factionalism with her whole "berniebros" spiel (and obamaboys in 2008). how is she so ruthlessly hungry for power that she will chop her own party into pieces so she has a chance to be the dem candidate? does it not bother her that doing so hurts her chances of becoming president, or does she just think she can demand the people she was insulting and attacking vote for her?

The children should obey their elders.
- Hillary

# ? Sep 4, 2017 05:38

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