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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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twodot posted:I like Coates, and don't think he should go to hell, but I'm not certain what value views like this have in the "The democrats are a waste" thread: I trust that Coates is smart enough to see the one way forward, but is worried that stating the obvious would lead to the ruination of his credibility. Considering we're not even close to having an honest discussion on race, much less doing anything about it, and that we'll probably never be close, the only way forward is bloodshed and stating that gives ammo to every centrist who wants to shut their eyes, cover their ears and scream to deny the truth. I'm hoping that he gets there one day, because hearing the truth from him will go a lot way towards making it a reality, but he may work his way into too lucrative a position to make that necessary sacrifice.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:07
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C. Everett Koop posted:the only way forward is bloodshed and stating that gives ammo to every centrist who wants to shut their eyes, cover their ears and scream to deny the truth. what?
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Sep 8, 2017 01:09
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Futuresight posted:Nobody in this thread* is denying the main thrust of the article. The point we've been making is not that economics is why Trump had support. The point is that economics is why Democrats didn't have enough support to beat him. Also that moving left on economics is the only good way to change the status quo position in a big way because it's that or moving right on social issues which is poo poo. Uh ......I deny the main thrust of the article? Whiteness doesn't explain everything going on. You don't have to be a Trump voter to see he was able to recruit substantial appeal due to his anti-trade/globalization stance. In the end, he has deceived those people. The problem is how do you actually move left enough in a way to get those people on your side. UHS is a step in a good direction, but I think there is a broader issue of wages and trade that is still largely unanswered (including by a GMI). TNC if anything uses a standard argument I have seen from many centrists, just in a more intelligent and well-written manner (most of the time it is hidden under a bunch of other garbage). I do have a feeling TNC doesn't want to admit there is any possibility to change because then he very well not be that left-wing economically or has excluded economics in exchange for race to such an extent there is no realistic way to ever achieve what he wants. If you keep the "pressure-cooker" on there very well may not be a way to move anywhere forward on race because you are breeding so much hatred otherwise.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:20
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joepinetree posted:Peachfart clearly is insinuating that Coates criticizing Bernie "flies in the face" of people here, the "democrats are a waste thread" (not the "i love bernie" thread). 
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Sep 8, 2017 01:22
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Ardennes posted:Uh ......I deny the main thrust of the article? Whiteness doesn't explain everything going on. You don't have to be a Trump voter to see he was able to recruit substantial appeal due to his anti-trade/globalization stance. In the end, he has deceived those people. The problem is how do you actually move left enough in a way to get those people on your side. UHS is a step in a good direction, but I think there is a broader issue of wages and trade that is still largely unanswered (including by a GMI). TNC if anything uses a standard argument I have seen from many centrists, just in a more intelligent and well-written manner (most of the time it is hidden under a bunch of other garbage). Or he has real reasons to be pessimistic about race relations? But continue painting him as another hated "centrist".
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Sep 8, 2017 01:25
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D.N. Nation posted:TNC's refusal to prescribe a way forward frustrates me too, but that's on me, not him. It bothers me because he goes after leftists who want to talk about class and move forward with class struggle. He wants us to stop what we're doing to address racism while having no plan for how to actually do that.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:27
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Has centrist joined neoliberal to mean 'people I disagree with'?
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Sep 8, 2017 01:28
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Ardennes posted:Uh ......I deny the main thrust of the article? Whiteness doesn't explain everything going on. You don't have to be a Trump voter to see he was able to recruit substantial appeal due to his anti-trade/globalization stance. In the end, he has deceived those people. The problem is how do you actually move left enough in a way to get those people on your side. UHS is a step in a good direction, but I think there is a broader issue of wages and trade that is still largely unanswered (including by a GMI). TNC if anything uses a standard argument I have seen from many centrists, just in a more intelligent and well-written manner (most of the time it is hidden under a bunch of other garbage). you're suffering from a bit of egocentrism there; Coates is not writing from a perspective of "how do we change things so the left wins." he is writing from a perspective of "white supremacy is a massive, extant problem whose existence people deny, which deals massive damage to our national politics." about which, he is 100% right. and his assessment that people do not have a solution for that problem is also 100% accurate. that the left's best solution for the problem is "try to help poor people and don't carve things out such that black people see none of it this time" is uninspiring, from that perspective. however it does beat the proposals of the liberal center and the right, the words "ummm" and "lol" respectively.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:28
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I don't think he has a believable reason to be so pessimistic before any economic measures are even taken or even attempted. Also, I don't see his argument about whiteness really explaining much of what happened. It may explain long-standing elements of racism that have existed in America but not how Trump was able to flip the rust belt. Ze Pollack posted:you're suffering from a bit of egocentrism there; Coates is not writing from a perspective of "how do we change things so the left wins." he is writing from a perspective of "white supremacy is a massive, extant problem whose existence people deny, which deals massive damage to our national politics." The issue is that by trying to discredit the issue of class (and he spends quite a bit of time on it including using already challenged statistics) he is arguably making the situation worse. More than finding a way for the "left" (no one can agree on the left in the US) to win, it is about the question what is happening in America. He puts pretty much the entire emphasis on the issue of Wwiteness and that essentially what has happened is more of the same going back to slavery. A counter-argument (one I ascribe to) is that the erosion of wages and the general quality of life in the US (for many) has exacerbated racist currents that were already there but there are actually ways to combat it. There may not be an ultimate solution to racism in the US, but there are ways to fight it rather than giving up. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 01:33
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Ardennes posted:Uh ......I deny the main thrust of the article? Whiteness doesn't explain everything going on. You don't have to be a Trump voter to see he was able to recruit substantial appeal due to his anti-trade/globalization stance. In the end, he has deceived those people. The problem is how do you actually move left enough in a way to get those people on your side. UHS is a step in a good direction, but I think there is a broader issue of wages and trade that is still largely unanswered (including by a GMI). TNC if anything uses a standard argument I have seen from many centrists, just in a more intelligent and well-written manner (most of the time it is hidden under a bunch of other garbage). As for what to do about that, basically what Ze Pollack said. If people oppose that because it sounds like it rewards racism, I don't have a good answer for it other than the hope is that their children don't grow up in an environment as nurturing of it. Peachfart posted:Has centrist joined neoliberal to mean 'people I disagree with'?  A: I gather this thread doesn't consider Paul Ryan a centrist. So, no it hasn't. Now shut up.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:39
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Kilroy posted:The problem is that in order to vote for Donald Trump you had to ignore a lot of really obvious and blatant, over-the-top hideous racism, to the point of willful ignorance. People are stupid, but few people are actually that stupid. It's selfishness, and it's selfishness that rises to the level of "I'll happily watch you packed in trains and shipped off to wherever, if I think I might be better off for it". Voting for Trump is pretty strong evidence that you're a total rear end in a top hat. He called TNC a centrist. Did you even read? And lol at calling TNC 'the Democratic establishment'.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:45
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Kilroy posted:The problem is that in order to vote for Donald Trump you had to ignore a lot of really obvious and blatant, over-the-top hideous racism, to the point of willful ignorance. People are stupid, but few people are actually that stupid. It's selfishness, and it's selfishness that rises to the level of "I'll happily watch you packed in trains and shipped off to wherever, if I think I might be better off for it". Voting for Trump is pretty strong evidence that you're a total rear end in a top hat. I do think there are people who voted for Trump beyond issues of race, even if it was all over his campaign. There was an economic plank to his campaign and while you can say he ultimately tricked people with it, doesn't mean it didn't exist. Also, there is the issue that he was able to get a major swing in working class voters compared to Romney, and was able to do better than Romney among non-white voters (despite everything). I don't think racism on its own explains this. Peachfart posted:He called TNC a centrist. Did you even read? I said he used an argument I have seen used by centrists, and I stand by that assertion. In particular, when he was talking about Trump voters in isolation of other Republican candidates. He is certainly not a centrist on the issue of race. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 01:45
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last time they were implemented they were explictly designed to not help black people. he's got reason to be pessimistic. the solution here is to prove that pessimism was misplaced. the argument about whiteness explains an awful lot when you tie it in with the fact Hillary Clinton thought "Donald Trump Is Bad" was a sufficient rebuttal to "Donald Trump will kick out the mexicans, throw the blacks in jail, and get you your job back." trump had an argument that grabbed people by the wallet and by the heartstrings, and Hillary, under the impression that whiteness was just a heartstrings thing, could only bring herself to counterattack with "well you're a lovely person for saying that."
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Sep 8, 2017 01:45
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Ze Pollack posted:last time they were implemented they were explictly designed to not help black people. he's got reason to be pessimistic. Most of them were implemented fairly in the beginning (beyond social security), but have been purposefully destroyed in part due to racism. This includes public housing, welfare, and public education. If anything African-Americans have taken the worst hit by the reduction of the social safety net and outsourcing. I think would be in his right to be skeptical of any program that was even indirectly leaving black people behind again like social security did.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:53
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Ardennes posted:Most of them were implemented fairly in the beginning (beyond social security), but have been purposefully destroyed in part due to racism. This includes public housing, welfare, and public education. If anything African-Americans have taken the worst hit by the reduction of the social safety net and outsourcing. I think would be in his right to be skeptical of any program that was even indirectly leaving black people behind again like social security did. This... isn't true at all? There is no point in US history where white and black people were treated the same when it came to social services. In fact, as equal treatment has become closer you have seen white America get increasingly uncomfortable with any welfare at all, culminating in the 80's and 90's destruction of the welfare system that continues to this day. Edit: Like, public education? Really? This was covered in just about every 10th grade textbook.
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Sep 8, 2017 02:05
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Here, have a series of interviews with Thomas Frank, author of "Listen, Liberal": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6MAKOrUzro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohs70wsfYSQ Still ongoing.
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Sep 8, 2017 02:13
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Ardennes posted:Most of them were implemented fairly in the beginning (beyond social security), but have been purposefully destroyed in part due to racism. This includes public housing, welfare, and public education. If anything African-Americans have taken the worst hit by the reduction of the social safety net and outsourcing. I think would be in his right to be skeptical of any program that was even indirectly leaving black people behind again like social security did. no, no, no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UbM4vXw7Qc
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Sep 8, 2017 02:13
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At the federal level, overt discrimination decreased during the Great Society era, and therefore the answer in response was generally to attempt to destroy these programs wholescale. Discrimination went from being part of the law code itself to a policy of "starving the beast." Of course, public education (k-12) already remained balkanized and therefore racialized. The answer is to make sure public programs are expanded for everybody, and 1930s era discrimination isn't re-added to the code. Btw, MLK also wanted poor whites also included in his "poor peoples campaign." The entire point of that campaign was based on the poor as a whole banding together beyond race. quote:The emergency we now face is economic, and it is a desperate and worsening situation. For the 35 million poor people in America – not even to mention, just yet, the poor in the other nations – there is a kind of strangulation in the air. In our society it is murder, psychologically, to deprive a man of a job or an income. You are in substance saying to that man that he has no right to exist. You are in a real way depriving him of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, denying in his case the very creed of his society. Now, millions of people are being strangled that way. The problem is international in scope. And it is getting worse, as the gap between the poor and the ‘affluent society’ increases…The dispossessed of this nation — the poor, both white and Negro — live in a cruelly unjust society. They must organize a revolution against the injustice, not against the lives of the persons who are their fellow citizens, but against the structures through which the society is refusing to take means which have been called for, and which are at hand, to lift the load of poverty. There are millions of poor people in this country who have very little, or even nothing, to lose. If they can be helped to take action together, they will do so with a freedom and a power that will be a new and unsettling force in our complacent national life…” quote:I think it is necessary for us to realize that we have moved from the era of civil rights to the era of human rights…[W]hen we see that there must be a radical redistribution of economic and political power, then we see that for the last twelve years we have been in a reform movement…That after Selma and the Voting Rights Bill, we moved into a new era, which must be an era of revolution…In short, we have moved into an era where we are called upon to raise certain basic questions about the whole society. quote:As a first step in building the power needed to achieve the goal of a radical redistribution of political and economic power King, along with other leaders of the poor such as Johnnie Tillmon of the National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO), helped work out the major elements of the platform for the Poor People’s Campaign of 1968. An important aspect of the Campaign was to petition the government to pass an Economic Bill of Rights as a step to lift the load of poverty. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 02:15
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Ardennes posted:At the federal level, overt discrimination decreased during the Great Society era, and therefore the answer in response was generally to attempt to destroy these programs wholescale. 
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Sep 8, 2017 02:18
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The issue with a pessimistic diagnosis is that it precludes any and all solutions as being impossible; it creates a situation where any suggestion on a way out of the problem is met with "it won't work so why even try". A more cynical person could assume that taking such a stance is a great way to make sure that you'll always be right and never really have to budge from your own position, securing a space in discourse that can't be made obsolete by progress.
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Sep 8, 2017 02:44
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Ardennes posted:Most of them were implemented fairly in the beginning (beyond social security), but have been purposefully destroyed in part due to racism. This includes public housing, welfare, and public education. If anything African-Americans have taken the worst hit by the reduction of the social safety net and outsourcing. I think would be in his right to be skeptical of any program that was even indirectly leaving black people behind again like social security did. I'd love to see you support the claim that public education especially was implemented fairly. That's really pretty laughable with even a basic grasp of US history.
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Sep 8, 2017 02:52
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'd love to see you support the claim that public education especially was implemented fairly. Yeah that was a goof, I should have separated public education at the state level and the k-12 level. However, when you get into other areas of federal spending, formal discrimination was largely lifted (on the public side at least). However, much of it (such as federal housing) was progressively under-funded and the emphasis went from expanding programs to cutting them down to the bone (on the Republican side) and this was progressively adopted by the Democrats. I don't think there should be overt pessimism against reversing the damage done by Nixon and Reagan. It may not solve racism in the US, and maybe that will never go away but there should be an attempt to at least try to loosen the grip of the GOP over poor whites. I absolutely don't think it is a lost cause, especially since Trump has lost a good chunk of support. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 03:03
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Ardennes posted:At the federal level, overt discrimination decreased during the Great Society era, and therefore the answer in response was generally to attempt to destroy these programs wholescale.  Anyways, I find it baffling that anyone could understand what Coates is saying and then come out with "well we just need to campaign on raising the minimum wage and sidestep the problem of whiteness", because the whole thing about John C. Calhoun was about the ability of white supremacy to transcend economic injustice and bind together capitalists and workers on shared whiteness. That is, if you believe that "move left on economics" can break racism, you disagree with Coates more or less completely. Neeksy posted:The issue with a pessimistic diagnosis is that it precludes any and all solutions as being impossible; it creates a situation where any suggestion on a way out of the problem is met with "it won't work so why even try". A more cynical person could assume that taking such a stance is a great way to make sure that you'll always be right and never really have to budge from your own position, securing a space in discourse that can't be made obsolete by progress. And that's without intimations like this, which are all about attempting to tear down the article by hinting that Coates has a bad attitude.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:13
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Ardennes posted:I don't think he has a believable reason to be so pessimistic before any economic measures are even taken or even attempted. What you had were people justifying their Trump vote by either saying "Well I don't agree with racist/bigoted/sexist statement X but I agree with vague policy Y" and feeling good about themselves, not realizing that said action meant they supported Trump's bigotry. The alternative is that they agree with Trump's views on women and minorities and going against not just a woman but THE woman that the GOP has spent the past two decades plus demonizing, they'd walk across hell itself to vote for Trump. quote:The issue is that by trying to discredit the issue of class (and he spends quite a bit of time on it including using already challenged statistics) he is arguably making the situation worse. More than finding a way for the "left" (no one can agree on the left in the US) to win, it is about the question what is happening in America. He puts pretty much the entire emphasis on the issue of Wwiteness and that essentially what has happened is more of the same going back to slavery. A counter-argument (one I ascribe to) is that the erosion of wages and the general quality of life in the US (for many) has exacerbated racist currents that were already there but there are actually ways to combat it. There is a solution but people aren't ready to hear it, much less implement it. Which is a shame, because the only way to save the country, much less the world, is to eliminate the cancer that is White Privilege.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:19
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C. Everett Koop posted:I trust that Coates is smart enough to see the one way forward, but is worried that stating the obvious would lead to the ruination of his credibility. Considering we're not even close to having an honest discussion on race, much less doing anything about it, and that we'll probably never be close, the only way forward is bloodshed and stating that gives ammo to every centrist who wants to shut their eyes, cover their ears and scream to deny the truth. You are going to have to elaborate.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:19
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C. Everett Koop posted:the only way to save the country, much less the world, is to eliminate the cancer that is White Privilege. The only way to defeat white privilege is to eliminate white majority. I'm not talking about bloodshed.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:23
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William Contraalto posted:
Wait you don't think the poor people's campaign also included whites? Because the evidence is out there. Moving left on economics may not "break racism" but undermine it. I would say the use of race by capitalists was a way to pit one set of the poor (admittedly with privileges) versus another set. The answer is to undermine that division and the privilege caused by it through radically changing how we treat economics. It may not actually, in the end, solve the issue of race, maybe nothing indeed can, but it certainly worth a shot when the only other answer is simply to passively allow hatred to win. If you want to break white privilege, it seems it would be a good idea to pit poor whites versus rich whites. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 03:24
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Ardennes posted:Wait you don't think the poor people's campaign also included whites? Because the evidence is out there. I believe that white people invoking Dr. King is a stupid idea that undermines whatever point you may have to make. Okay, so the Coates article does fly in the face of what you believe and you disagree with it completely. That resolved, you seem to think that racism is a product of capitalism. Does this also apply to sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism? Are we to understand all discrimination as rooted in capitalism and invulnerable to anything but
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Sep 8, 2017 03:28
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I think TNC is saying that not confroning racism will prevent social economic equality in the same sense that marxist believe neoliberal policies without dismantling capitalist power structures are doomed to failure.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:36
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gohmak posted:The only way to defeat white privilege is to eliminate white majority. I'm not talking about bloodshed. There's no way to eliminate white majority without bloodshed, simply because they're scared that we're going to treat them as badly as they've treated us. One black president, milquetoast as he was, broke an entire political party and has led to open displays of white supremacism. To even dream of hinting of the idea in public is to give centrists a call to arms. It's literally all or nothing. It's why I'm not surprised that Coates is willing to walk up to the edge of the argument and I know it has to have crossed his mind, but he's simply not able or not willing to make that leap due to the consequences, of which there would be a high possibility of him being killed.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:44
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William Contraalto posted:I believe that white people invoking Dr. King is a stupid idea that undermines whatever point you may have to make. You racist as poo poo if you think a person's skin color says they can't actually read and speak about Dr. King. Who's shitfrothing hillary toxx were you?
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Sep 8, 2017 03:54
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Grognan posted:You racist as poo poo if you think a person's skin color says they can't actually read and speak about Dr. King. Who's shitfrothing hillary toxx were you? It's interesting how "this is a stupid idea that undermines your ability to persuade people" somehow became "you can't read about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.". This is a not-uncommon behavior whereby people suggesting a person in a position of privilege voluntarily refrain from doing something and the privileged person acting as if they were told some unreasonable statement and that they'd be shot if they didn't agree with it. A kind of fragility, if you will.
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Sep 8, 2017 03:58
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Who's toxxed rereg are you. Because concern trolling about racial poo poo is about as centrist rear end in a top hat dem as it gets. Or as is fashion in some sub-forums, how is it being an alt-right agitator. You said nothing but buzz-words and implications designed to discredit any solidarity or interpretation of Dr. King's words. You are too much of a coward with no position that all you can do is imply things instead of spelling them out. Because your premise is loving flawed and without substance.
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Sep 8, 2017 04:01
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Grognan posted:Who's toxxed rereg are you. Because concern trolling about racial poo poo is about as centrist rear end in a top hat dem as it gets. Or as is fashion in some sub-forums, how is it being an alt-right agitator. You said nothing but buzz-words and implications designed to discredit any solidarity or interpretation of Dr. King's words. This is barely coherent but I would like to know why you think saying the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. would support you in every way and saying that racism against white people is real within two posts is a good idea.
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Sep 8, 2017 04:07
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Again, instead of addressing, you infer and imply rather than state any stance of your own. Who's rereg are you?
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Sep 8, 2017 04:09
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C. Everett Koop posted:There's no way to eliminate white majority without bloodshed, simply because they're scared that we're going to treat them as badly as they've treated us. One black president, milquetoast as he was, broke an entire political party and has led to open displays of white supremacism. To even dream of hinting of the idea in public is to give centrists a call to arms. It's literally all or nothing. It's why I'm not surprised that Coates is willing to walk up to the edge of the argument and I know it has to have crossed his mind, but he's simply not able or not willing to make that leap due to the consequences, of which there would be a high possibility of him being killed. You do know that bloodshed is black flesh in the Mediterranean sea and brown flesh against Trumps wall?
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Sep 8, 2017 04:11
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Grognan posted:Again, instead of addressing, you infer and imply rather than state any stance of your own. You aren't saying anything coherent enough to have meaning. Like, you could potentially be arguing that it is necessary to invoke the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. in order to have "solidarity", and this is something potentially worth discussing, but I can't be sure because what you wrote doesn't cohere. All I can look at and respond to are your coherent statements about how it's racist to say it's a bad idea for a white person to do something and that the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. would agree with your particular politics.
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Sep 8, 2017 04:12
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Using that boondocks gif has usually been the tactic of some really rear end in a top hat people around here to dismiss any of DLK Jr.s that white people agree with. If you had lurked (because you regged two weeks ago), you could know about. Best case you should've lurked more, worst case you're gfsincere again. Either way TNC's work is interesting but ultimately serving the fact that democrats are a waste.
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Sep 8, 2017 04:21
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Grognan posted:Using that boondocks gif has usually been the tactic of some really rear end in a top hat people around here to dismiss any of DLK Jr.s that white people agree with. If you had lurked (because you regged two weeks ago), you could know about. This is still incoherent. What the gently caress is "DLK Jr.s"?
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Sep 8, 2017 04:25
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gohmak posted:You do know that bloodshed is black flesh in the Mediterranean sea and brown flesh against Trumps wall? I know that's the end result if we do nothing and continue down the current path. Like I said, White Privilege is the tumor in the brain; taking it out may immediately kill the patient but doing nothing will eventually kill the patient (and yes I know everyone dies don't give me that pedantic poo poo). In a perfect vacuum world we would do nothing and love would conquer all and we'd all make mixed babies and everyone would look like The Rock and Bey and none of this poo poo would exist. But that might, might, only happen when my grandkids have grandkids at best. It's more likely they'd be rounded up and put in chains or a mass grave if we do nothing.
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Sep 8, 2017 04:26
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