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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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Jizz Festival posted:And white supremacy ends when white workers stand in solidarity with their class, rather than their race. The obvious way forward is class struggle and class consciousness. Do you have a different idea? The whole loving point of the loving Coates piece is that racism stands in the way of class consciousness! Can you at least read it before puking slogans out?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:37
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Majorian posted:Hillary: I UNDERSTAND THE COMEDY! HOW DO YOU DO, FELLOW KIDS? BLEEP BLOOP! gently caress this lovely timeline we're in where telling truth from parody is impossible. 
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Sep 8, 2017 17:39
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ask yourself if abuela would know who mitch hedberg is
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Sep 8, 2017 17:39
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shrike82 posted:ask yourself if abuela would know who mitch hedberg is Ask yourself if you think abuela wrote all of her book.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:40
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Lightning Knight posted:Not in particular, but white workers choosing race over class is a historical problem that also doesn't have a clear remedy. And is that actually happening to a significant degree? The opposite problem definitely is. And the establishment can't silence the dreaded minority leftist fast enough; see Nina Turner literally being shut out and liberal twitter making a meme celebrating it. While leftists are literally taking to the streets defending minorities from white supremacists.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:42
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Majorian posted:Ask yourself if you think abuela wrote all of her book. ask yourself if someone abuela would hire as her ghost writer would know who mitch hedberg is
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Sep 8, 2017 17:43
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Inescapable Duck posted:And is that actually happening to a significant degree? The opposite problem definitely is. And the establishment can't silence the dreaded minority leftist fast enough; see Nina Turner literally being shut out and liberal twitter making a meme celebrating it. While leftists are literally taking to the streets defending minorities from white supremacists. Not specifically in this thread in this moment, but it comes up all the time in leftwing circles. Should we support immigrants? Do the people in the sweatshops matter or is it just a bludgeon to discuss the '50s some more? Is abortion/gay marriage worth it? These are things I see all the time, and that's with the understanding that the people in this thread, even the "conservatives," are way to the left of the American mainstream. I'd rather not rehash the bullshitty "identity politics" debate that was popular in November.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:45
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shrike82 posted:ask yourself if someone abuela would hire as her ghost writer would know who mitch hedberg is Absolutely she would. Plenty of people in her campaign knew pop culture references; they were just too inept to know how to use them in any way that didn't come off as robotic or pandering.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:46
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Inescapable Duck posted:And is that actually happening to a significant degree? The opposite problem definitely is. And the establishment can't silence the dreaded minority leftist fast enough; see Nina Turner literally being shut out and liberal twitter making a meme celebrating it. While leftists are literally taking to the streets defending minorities from white supremacists. So the 'opposite problem' is happening? The opposite of 'Demanding that minorities sign up for the class war and then blowing off their problems with regards to white supremacy and patriarchy' would be 'Demanding that whites sign up for the race war and then blowing off their problems with regards to economics'. Do you really believe that is what is happening?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:48
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Peachfart posted:So the 'opposite problem' is happening? The opposite of 'Demanding that minorities sign up for the class war and then blowing off their problems with regards to white supremacy and patriarchy' would be 'Demanding that whites sign up for the race war and then blowing off their problems with regards to economics'. 'We could break up the banks, but would that solve racism? Would that solve sexism?' (With the irony being that the refusal to adequately tackle economic issues also completely hamstrings the ability to meaningfully tackle issues of race and sex, as women and minorities are disproportionately affected by poor employment, low wages, union-busting, economic crookery, etc.) But yes, it does appear that racism and sexism as issues are used as bludgeons and shields by liberal centrists to shut up the left trying to bring up economic concerns, with the tactic switching to total radio silence or bare-minimum appeasement when a minority/woman leftist happens to bring them up. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 17:51
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William Contraalto posted:The whole loving point of the loving Coates piece is that racism stands in the way of class consciousness! Can you at least read it before puking slogans out? I've read the entire thing. I agree racism stands in the way, but the solution to that is to show how racism is used as a tool to divide working people by putting white workers at a higher level than black workers so that they will defend the owners to defend that privilege. Where is Coates' solution to anything?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:52
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Jizz Festival posted:I've read the entire thing. I agree racism stands in the way, but the solution to that is to show how racism is used as a tool to divide working people by putting white workers at a higher level than black workers so that they will defend the owners to defend that privilege. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ I'm not sure it's up to the black person to figure out how to make white people less racist to be honest.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:54
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Inescapable Duck posted:'We could break up the banks, but would that solve racism? Would that solve sexism?' No one said that we should ignore economic issues, but you seem to be saying that we focus on racial issues too much. Is that correct?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:54
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Jizz Festival posted:I've read the entire thing. I agree racism stands in the way, but the solution to that is to show how racism is used as a tool to divide working people by putting white workers at a higher level than black workers so that they will defend the owners to defend that privilege. he's been pushing reparations which most white leftists scoff at
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Sep 8, 2017 17:55
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Peachfart posted:No one said that we should ignore economic issues, but you seem to be saying that we focus on racial issues too much. Is that correct? No, you are in fact not focusing on racial issues enough or correctly. The issues are institutional and inherently tied in with economics, as the Republicans are well aware of and use to maintain white supremacy even when open racism becomes politically unpalatable (aka, the Southern Strategy). No one is 'saying' that economic concerns should be ignored, sure. Just whenever leftists happen to bring them up, there's a centrist to say 'But you aren't focusing on social issues enough, you racist sexist BernieBro!'
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Sep 8, 2017 17:58
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How do you get racist whites to support reparations?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:01
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Jizz Festival posted:How do you get racist whites to support reparations? How do you get racist whites to support anything without being racist? That is the central question.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:02
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Jizz Festival posted:I've read the entire thing. I agree racism stands in the way, but the solution to that is to show how racism is used as a tool to divide working people by putting white workers at a higher level than black workers so that they will defend the owners to defend that privilege. This is why people are skeptical of class-focused leftism, because you deny that racism is anything other than a manifestation of class. So, you know, it's really questionable whether you can engage in more than the most superficial antiracism, let alone whether you would.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:04
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Lightning Knight posted:How do you get racist whites to support anything without being racist? I've offered my solution, by building class consciousness and working on class struggle. This is supposedly an alternative solution for how to move forward so I'm curious as to how this project would actually be accomplished.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:05
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Peachfart posted:So the 'opposite problem' is happening? The opposite of 'Demanding that minorities sign up for the class war and then blowing off their problems with regards to white supremacy and patriarchy' would be 'Demanding that whites sign up for the race war and then blowing off their problems with regards to economics'. Eoconomic empowerment is still empowerment, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that at least my minority group cares deeply about it. It also amplifies your voice in society and makes it easier to fight for other gains; far easier to ignore a bunch of broke nobodies than people that suddenly have cash and representation (which sadly derives from cash). Of course, ideally we should do both things. But ask a minority on the street if he'd like a bigger paycheck and/or NHS-level healthcare or have a politician tweet a support message to his peeps and maybe pass a law making October 5 Wogdom Appreciation Day (which is usually what 'support' amounts to), I think I know how that coin will land.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:05
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Inescapable Duck posted:No, you are in fact not focusing on racial issues enough or correctly. The issues are institutional and inherently tied in with economics, as the Republicans are well aware of and use to maintain white supremacy even when open racism becomes politically unpalatable (aka, the Southern Strategy). So, if I'm getting what you are saying(minus the part where you try and rile me up) is that racial issues are at the core economic issues. And that you believe anyone expressing concerns about racial issues outside of economic terms is trying to change the topic of conversation. Is that correct?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:06
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William Contraalto posted:This is why people are skeptical of class-focused leftism, because you deny that racism is anything other than a manifestation of class. So, you know, it's really questionable whether you can engage in more than the most superficial antiracism, let alone whether you would.  I didn't deny anything, merely pointing out how racism is actually used.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:07
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Majorian posted:Hillary: I UNDERSTAND THE COMEDY! HOW DO YOU DO, FELLOW KIDS? BLEEP BLOOP! This can't be real. It just can't.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:07
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Radish posted:This can't be real. It just can't. I honestly don't know if it's actually in the book or not, but it's certainly true in spirit.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:09
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Jizz Festival posted:
Understanding racism as primarily "used" rather than as an ideology is not only conspiracy theorizing in lieu of actual class analysis, it's also just a restatement of what I said- many leftists refuse to treat race, sex, sexual orientation and gender identity, ability, etc. as being real things, rather than instruments of class.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:10
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Majorian posted:I honestly don't know if it's actually in the book or not, but it's certainly true in spirit. I'm reserving judgment until I see a page number on that one, putting aside that it contextualizes the sheer boorishness of that awful joke in a single fell swoop.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:10
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Jizz Festival posted:I've offered my solution, by building class consciousness and working on class struggle. This is supposedly an alternative solution for how to move forward so I'm curious as to how this project would actually be accomplished. And what happens if that fails? This is the thing that frustrates me about the current narrative of the rise of neoliberalism in the '70s and '80s. Those politicians, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton - people voted for them. And the big reason regular people voted for them was not trickle down economics, it was opposition to desegregation - the Southern Strategy. Trickle-down economics was the way Reagan packaged neoliberalism for voters, but the enthusiasm came from his opposition to busing, to desegregating neighborhoods, and for "state's rights." The American welfare state was built on the understanding that Southern Democrats would support it as an institution for white people only. When that understanding was broken the Democratic Party fragmented and lost control. Building a class consciousness in a hostile country in a populace that values its tribal cultural identity as the racial in-group is not as simple as you make it sound.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:11
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Office Pig posted:I'm reserving judgment until I see a page number on that one, putting aside that it contextualizes the sheer boorishness of that awful joke in a single fell swoop. GIS categorizes it as, "bible verses about god's love." Which is accurate IMO.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:13
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Lightning Knight posted:And what happens if that fails? Better just give up then! Or do you have an actual alternative for what to do?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:13
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Lightning Knight posted:Building a class consciousness in a hostile country in a populace that values its tribal cultural identity as the racial in-group is not as simple as you make it sound.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:14
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William Contraalto posted:This is why people are skeptical of class-focused leftism, because you deny that racism is anything other than a manifestation of class. So, you know, it's really questionable whether you can engage in more than the most superficial antiracism, let alone whether you would. I don't think very many leftists actually hold this viewpoint, outside of the most doctrinaire autistic Orthodox Marxists.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:14
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Jizz Festival posted:Better just give up then! Or do you have an actual alternative for what to do? Demanding that other people give you a ready-made solution is a sign you are unwilling to consider their ideas but unwilling to be rude enough to tell them directly.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:15
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Lightning Knight posted:And what happens if that fails? Ah. Let's do nothing. Thats what the good neoliberal wants.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:15
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Jizz Festival posted:Better just give up then! Or do you have an actual alternative for what to do? Well, if you want my honest opinion, I think we're doomed because of global warming, because even in this thread we pretend like that isn't the literal most important thing in politics period because it's an existential crisis. I just disagree with the notion that building a color blind class consciousness that stays silent on race or gender to avoid harming white fragility is a good or noble outcome to look forward too.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:15
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Majorian posted:I don't think very many leftists actually hold this viewpoint, outside of the most doctrinaire autistic Orthodox Marxists. I'll be sure to take the opinion of someone who uses disability as an insult in mind.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:16
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Majorian posted:I don't think very many leftists actually hold this viewpoint, outside of the most doctrinaire autistic Orthodox Marxists. The last 2 pages hold at least 3 people who seem to hold those beliefs.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:16
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making GBS threads on a group because their demands are "unreasonable" sounds like a centrist thing to do tbqh
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Sep 8, 2017 18:16
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William Contraalto posted:I'll be sure to take the opinion of someone who uses disability as an insult in mind. Pssst - I have Asperger's. I've been pretty open about this in the past. 
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Sep 8, 2017 18:17
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Skyscraper posted:What's the more simple solution to fixing what TNC is describing? Build a time machine and tell Republicans in 1865 to execute every Confederate?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:17
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Peachfart posted:The last 2 pages hold at least 3 people who seem to hold those beliefs. I count one, ie: Jizz Festival.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:18
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