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I don't play enough strangers to really know what to do if it looked like they clearly weren't having fun. If they harsh my vibe enough I guess I'd just stop playing? I can't really enjoy the game if my opponent can't. I came here to show off my army and smash mans together, not add another tally to my list. And as for me losing, not an unlikely scenario, I have no problem seeing the humor in my poor luck or a particularly dumb tactical misstep. If we both enjoyed the game then it was a worthwhile experience. Not terribly useful advice for people who genuinely struggle with this stuff I guess, but honestly if you have anger issues 40K is 100% not the game for you.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:14
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As much as we make fun of 'hams who kick up a giant fuss about WAAC types, they do exist and they are genuinely miserable to play against if you're not prepared to go in on a competitive level. That's not always feasible when your main source of games is through pick ups (like me). There's few things as irritating than having some neckbeard rub their dominance into your face for a couple of hours. If I'm playing someone and they're not having a good time, I generally try to FORGE THE NARRATIVE to at least make it entertaining. Tactically dumb but narratively interesting plays, trying to engineer situations for cool duels or interesting moments, putting a bit of improv roleplaying into it, that kinda thing. Deified Data posted:but honestly if you have anger issues 40K is 100% not the game for you. This so much, combine that with many of those angry Hams putting too much personal investment in the outcome of any given game and it's guarantee for bad times.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:23
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Deified Data posted:I don't play enough strangers to really know what to do if it looked like they clearly weren't having fun. If they harsh my vibe enough I guess I'd just stop playing? I can't really enjoy the game if my opponent can't. I came here to show off my army and smash mans together, not add another tally to my list. And as for me losing, not an unlikely scenario, I have no problem seeing the humor in my poor luck or a particularly dumb tactical misstep. If we both enjoyed the game then it was a worthwhile experience. My strategy normally is just to continue being chill and polite but firm which is how I approach every game, and the only times that hasn't worked is with guys who are already 90% of the way to throwing themselves a pity party by the time deployment ends. I don't mind guys being like "man it's not my day today" or talking about how they hosed up x or a bad run of luck at a critical point let them down, like actual analysis which you can reasonably talk about, but there's a specific type of whining tone which is very common to bad players. It's typically paired with complaining about your army constantly or generic complaints about "dice" which usually just demonstrate their poor grasp of probability, and it makes me want to crush them as comprehensively as possible.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:25
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The Bee posted:Yeah, that's true. It's definitely possible to win without rubbing your dominance in peoples' faces. I have friends who play Commander in Magic, and they love having the top two players team up and shoving the weaker ones out of the game before they even get a chance to play. It's super unfun to deal with, and turns losing from "oh well, better luck next time" to "why bother showing" when stunts like that get pulled. The objective strategy is a great way of getting around that feeling because it still lets your friend play, and on a good roll they might even snatch your objective and turn some of the tide. You're still playing to win, too, even if not playing to crush, so it isn't like you're giving them a pity win. Yeah, in my experience nobody likes being played super easy on (and trying to do that can easily make them feel shittier), but you can usually make choices that move you towards winning without trying to completely take your opponent out of the game and remove their ability to do anything. Obliterating someone might be optimal sometimes, but if there's good ways to play for a win without making it impossible for them to do anything fun. Also: For gods sake, speed up your turns when winning. I play guard and I'm working on speeding my play up, but if I'm winning, I will totally 'forget' the little poo poo like firing laspistols from my characters or lasguns from my heavy weapon squads. (which is totally credible because I forget those plenty anyways) And I'll give up on fiddly, time consuming poo poo like trying to get squads properly into cover or space everything well unless it really matters. I also make sure I'm much stricter on myself about take backs. If I forget a psychic phase or order, it's gone and I won't even bring it up unless it was super important.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:30
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Corrode posted:My strategy normally is just to continue being chill and polite but firm which is how I approach every game, and the only times that hasn't worked is with guys who are already 90% of the way to throwing themselves a pity party by the time deployment ends. I don't mind guys being like "man it's not my day today" or talking about how they hosed up x or a bad run of luck at a critical point let them down, like actual analysis which you can reasonably talk about, but there's a specific type of whining tone which is very common to bad players. It's typically paired with complaining about your army constantly or generic complaints about "dice" which usually just demonstrate their poor grasp of probability, and it makes me want to crush them as comprehensively as possible. Exactly this. Be calm and professional while sympathizing on pivotal moments but I have no patience for complaining about what kind of army they are facing or dice. I can count on one hand the amount of games that legit fell apart because of dice in the last season among my whole team, and most of them were demon players having terrible non-greedy rerolled warpstorm/grimore rolls. If your game was won/lost on a single die roll, it was too close and you could have played better. Never ever blame dice. That's some scrub tier garbage that you will never learn from.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:47
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I see that sort of behavior/mindset a lot even prior to games, or in chat talking about games. Stuff like "Hey I always lose what can I do different?" and then pre-emptively dismissing every piece of advice as "I already tried that and it didn't work" or "That wont work" and boiling down to "welp everything is impossible I can never win why bother". They beat themselves before they ever deploy. In other games like Malifaux or Infinity, where you can legit lose half or more of your army and still win decisively, they tend to overestimate the impact of losing one model and go on tilt basically just conceding without conceding.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:51
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are they going to be releasing updated emperor's children and world eaters models along with fulgrim and angron?
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Sep 11, 2017 19:52
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Percelus posted:are they going to be releasing updated emperor's children and world eaters models along with fulgrim and angron? We don't even know if Fulgrim and Angron are even coming, let alone updating the old models.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:59
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:We don't even know if Fulgrim and Angron are even coming, let alone updating the old models. Come on. They're coming. They're all coming back except for Kurze, Horus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius- the ones with onscreen deaths. Even then I could totally see Sanguinius coming back as a greater daemon of the emperor or something. There is a 100% chance that we'll see Angron and Fulgrim since they showed up in the fluff in the core rulebook so we know they're active again.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:03
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Pendent posted:Come on. They're coming. They're all coming back except for Kurze, Horus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius- the ones with onscreen deaths. I could honestly see them coming back as well, even. Now that they're releasing Primarchs they won't be able to stop. Well, yeah, but we have no timescale at all. Could be next month, could be next edition.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:04
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Pendent posted:Come on. They're coming. They're all coming back except for Kurze, Horus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius- the ones with onscreen deaths. I could honestly see them coming back as well, even. Now that they're releasing Primarchs they won't be able to stop. Kurze specifically did not have an on-screen death, as the cameras flickered out before Martin Sheen killed him. All we have is the assassin's word that he's dead.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:05
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JoshTheStampede posted:Kurze specifically did not have an on-screen death, as the cameras flickered out before Martin Sheen killed him. All we have is the assassin's word that he's dead. Well, and Kurze's. It'd hugely undermine his 'death' if he didn't actually die.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:07
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JoshTheStampede posted:Kurze specifically did not have an on-screen death, as the cameras flickered out before Martin Sheen killed him. All we have is the assassin's word that he's dead. Didn't he die onscreen in the Night Lords books? Not that GW have hesitated to retcon books in the past, I suppose. Shockeh posted:Well, and Kurze's. It'd hugely undermine his 'death' if he didn't actually die. I keep hearing rumors about Sanguinus coming back and I'm sincerely hoping it doesn't happen- his sacrifice is like the core theme around which the Blood Angels revolve. That being said I don't know that GW can resist releasing the model. We're seeing that Primarchs are selling for roughly Knight prices and I would imagine there are way more people buying.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:07
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Well, yeah, but we have no timescale at all. Could be next month, could be next edition. Only thing we know is that there's an Armageddon campaign going on down the line somewhere, so if there was a time to release new Angron/Ghazzy/Yarrick/Emps Champion models that'd be it. Of course this could be a timescale of 2+ years depending on whether they do it campaign book style or as a Global Campaign. Also, have some artwork of the new little Daemon Engine things, look at 'em, adorable. 
SteelMentor fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Sep 11, 2017 |
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Sep 11, 2017 20:08
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Some thoughts: I try and work with my opponent mid-game if it's turning into a blowout and things are getting lovely. I find that a lot of times, people will want to stop playing too early or stop trying to win and they're still in a fixable situation, but just don't see how things are going. I also find that talking over the situation and how things could have been done better helps, but only if they didn't lose before lists were made. There are times when, turn 2, things were getting lovely and I talked the opp into staying in the game and playing it out, and things turned around and I ended up losing because my opponent started playing the mission rather than just running forward and shooting stuff. Then, after the game, I think it helps to talk over strategies and what could have been done. I definitely don't play people easy, though--that poo poo is just insulting and I think it makes people feel worse. I may ease up strategically to speed things up and avoid bad blowouts, ignoring bonuses I would normally apply, but I don't make obvious bad choices. Re: Dice, You aren't gonna make every roll, but I can sympathize when a host of things don't go your way or an early critical roll completely turns things in a game. The occasional "are you kidding me?" gripe about a set of real bad rolls is fine, but no one likes it when you go on and on about your rolls, even if they don't even out over the game. I've seen games won/lost on a streak of die rolls on turn 1 or 2 (this says more about the igougo system than the dice themselves), but the times I've seen a single die roll being the difference in winning or losing were usually when rolling for extra turns in close games. And in 8th you can avoid a lot of dice problems with CP usage, so you have even less reason to gripe. On the other side of the "being a lovely loser" equation, which I've been on a few times and have been working on improving, I can say that a lot of my problems came from bad prep--Specifically, I had a lot of models from a prior edition that weren't suited to building good armies or dealing with threats in the current edition, and I wasn't thinking tactically enough about what my opponents were bringing (or I didn't know the rules for what they had), which would lead to bad decisions or putting myself in a place where I was bound to lose (though again, some of this was 6th/7th edition--My first game against Knights was a pick-up game on a sparse table where all I had to take them out were Meltaguns and I lost all 4 of those on T1). Once I started thinking more about how to build an army that could play competitively (and painting the models for that), things improved. Not just because I won more, but because my games felt more competitive, and I think really it's less (for me, anyways) about winning and losing and more about whether the games feel competitive up until the end. I think a lot of ANAmal's frustration comes from this same place, and because, similar to the most recent game we played, a lot of the games he plays are over early, and losing on turn 2 feels much worse than losing on turn 5/6/7. Finally, don't play kill points. Pick missions, particularly ones with interesting, non-destructive objectives. A lot of new players, especially, like to do kill points and in my experience, that only leads to more unabalanced, unfun games where one player gets an early advantage by way of the first turn or a hot streak of rolls, leading to the other player being unable to catch up and losing. Losing due to mission parameters feels much better than having your army get housed or nearly wiped off the table.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:09
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Haven't they been able to clone Horus or something
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Sep 11, 2017 20:14
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goose willis posted:Haven't they been able to clone Horus or something Yeah, but Abbadon's big thing that got him control of the Black Legion was going around killing all the clones, at which point he renamed the "Sons of Horus" to "The Black Legion" as a way of saying: "gently caress Horus, I'm in charge now. "
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Sep 11, 2017 20:18
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There's also a nonzero chance we'll see Sanguinius. Losing a game to bad rolls is a real thing that happens, but your fourth handful of 1s and 2s in a row is a signal that the game's become an interesting statistics anomaly instead of something to get mad about.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:23
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If they're smart, they'll have ambiguous claimants to the throne of several Primarchs. A new, swole Sanguinor shows up and says he's Sanguinus - is he correct? Who knows! M'Shen claims to be Curze Reborn!
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Sep 11, 2017 20:30
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moths posted:There's also a nonzero chance we'll see Sanguinius. On the one hand I think it would be terrible from a fluff perspective. On the other it would be a gorgeous model and there's very little chance I'd be able to resist picking it up.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:30
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Abnormally unfavourable dice rolls are a thing that happens, but they should also be a point of entertainment.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:39
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jng2058 posted:Yeah, but Abbadon's big thing that got him control of the Black Legion was going around killing all the clones, at which point he renamed the "Sons of Horus" to "The Black Legion" as a way of saying: "gently caress Horus, I'm in charge now. " Well get this, they're gonna make some wacky plot advancement where Fabulous Bill takes on the role of Cawl for Chaos and just happens to have a bottle of Horus juice laying around, so he makes a mega clone of Horus, and then the Imperium responds by taking the juices of all the loyalist primarchs and fusing their power into one and bringing back THE EMPEROR Characters for that edition start at $100 and troop boxes of mega marines are 5 dudes for $75
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Sep 11, 2017 20:40
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Abnormally unfavourable dice rolls are a thing that happens, but they should also be a point of entertainment. In a game of 3rd edition, 6 surfboard dark elf guys flank my tau gunline thru a forest. 5 of them were impaled on branches. (5 1s on 6 dice.) Guy #6 was so horrified he fled. That's the only part of the game I remember. Those moments are great, and should be viewed as such.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:56
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I posted over the weekend about how I finally got to give my Knight Paladin a try in 8th edition. I've been thinking a lot about how that game went and I'm sort of wanting to make that Knight a semi-regular addition to my lists, at least until I get a full codex. It was way more fun to use than it used to be, does a really good job of shoring up some issues that a pure Blood Angels list tends to have, and best of all seemed like a lot less of pain in the rear end to deal with for person on the other side of the table. My question to all of you is how you all feel about Knights or even superheavies in general in casual play in 8th. My own sense is that they're a lot more balanced than they were previously so that these days most reasonably balanced lists will at least have a good chance of being able to deal with them. I also don't want to let my own biases drive this so... thoughts?
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Sep 11, 2017 21:21
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Triple Knights is probably a bit rough on people who aren't expecting it so I wouldn't just rock up to game night with it, but a single one in a list is pretty innocuous - they're expensive and not all that hard to kill, especially since they're huge targets.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:26
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Explain the Relic Forgeworld rule to me. As I read it, I need a non-relic unit in the same battlefield role. So if I want to take a Relic Sicaran I also need another Elite choice. Does my terminator squad satisfy that requirement?
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Sep 11, 2017 21:30
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Pendent posted:I posted over the weekend about how I finally got to give my Knight Paladin a try in 8th edition. Honestly, I'd continue the general etiquette from 7th ed wrt Lords of War, ask your opponent if they're cool facing it and offer them a chance to tweak their list if it can't deal with a LoW as it is. Kinda related to feelbads chat, I've had a couple of games now where opponents have sprung a Knight, Baneblade or Bobby G on me in what was supposed to be a small points value/casual game and it ruins the game prematurely.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:30
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Pendent posted:I posted over the weekend about how I finally got to give my Knight Paladin a try in 8th edition. I've been seeing a few titans lately (because Seattle is full of tech money) and I'm about 50/50 on superheavies. Things in the 500 point range like a knight, spartan, stormsurge, bane blade, magnus, or Bobby g (and now mortarion) feel reasonable. They're a big chunk of an army, but most balanced lists should be able to deal with them (unless magnus makes a dozen 4+ invulnerables against lascannons on turn 1). Something like a Warhound or ta'unar hitting the 12-1500 range, otoh, I don't think should be run casually. One of those is either going to be something that their list can deal with, and they kill it and then immediately win, or they don't stand a chance at killing it and immediately lose. Games decided before deployment aren't fun. I'm curious about a falchion/fellblade at around 800. They feel more like the small lords of war than the big ones, but it's still a good chunk of points that can be hard to deal with. E: this is all at 2k or higher. In a smaller game I'd feel like it's no fun. Lords of war should have a minimum game size, or be a - command point detachment.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:41
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SRM posted:Thanks! I'm hoping they'll do well at Armies on Parade this year, after my Heresy Ultras got snubbed last time. Something I was once told and have always took into account: You can't control another person's behavior. It's probably not my fault someone got in a foul mood, and I shouldn't feel guilty because Timmy got mad that I took out his wittle Vindicator. If someone lacks enough control to keep game frustration from overtaking them, why should it be something I need to handle? That being said, I often do what I can to guide the atmosphere in general. For example, if it's a friendly game and I'm spanking someone's army off the table, I might take that time to experiment with different tactics. Likely it'll fail and the game will even out some. Failing that, I will just look to end the game as quickly as possible. There are days that I am in a lovely mood, and if I believe that it'll be an attitude that is visible to others, I'm not even going to game- why would I want to put a cloud on someone else's day? It's selfish.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:44
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SteelMentor posted:Also, have some artwork of the new little Daemon Engine things, look at 'em, adorable. Giving cover in a radius is pretty rad, too. Hopefully they aren't too $ expensive.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:44
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SRM posted:Also, speaking of the Badcast, we're looking for advice! We're gonna be talking about what to do when someone is in a bad mood during a game, whether they're just losing real bad or what have you. What do you do when the game's not going well and you're not having fun? What do you do when your opponent is having that experience? In my experience this is a pretty easy thing to encounter on both ends of the spectrum. If the game isn't competitive, or if it's clear that the result is inevitable and not related to anything fun, then it's hard to maintain the motivation and positivity to keep playing. The first question I ask myself in that situation is simple; do I need to continue playing? Is my opponent having fun, or is this just kind of a slog for the both of us? If it's a casual game then a player shouldn't feel bad about shrugging their shoulders and going "You know what, this isn't working. Let's call it and go do X." Then go do X, whether that's paint or bullshit about something else. Ultimately this is just a drat game, and if the game sucks then why bother? Presumably you're with a player who isn't a total dick about things and will understand. Calling the game also offers a good opportunity to step outside the bounds of the match and get an external perspective on things. What caused things to collapse? What about this wasn't fun, and why? Does the list need to be tweaked, did placement gently caress things up, or is the matchup so poorly balanced that it's an exercise in futility? One of the reasons I started my Primaris army (as slow as it's been) is because I wanted something that could offer an alternative playing experience from my Orks. If you see your opponent is having a lovely time, bring it up. Be direct and honest, because it's really hard to have fun yourself when you can tell the person you're playing is unhappy. I find that if they need to vent it's reasonable to lend an ear, but don't think you need to be their therapist or anything. You need to have fun as well.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:45
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The way I see it, every Primarch except the four mentioned is likely to come back. Ferrus should be put in a Knight-esque Dreadnought because it'd be super fitting for the Hands and super ironic for the man himself. Black Legion should get a souped-up Abaddon. Blood Angels should get a souped-up Sangunior. Only one I can't think of a satisfying return for is Kurze, really.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:47
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I'm also a big fan of taking games outside the context of a static mission roll between two people. Having multiple players per side, doing fun things like narrative missions, intentionally making "fluffy" lists that aren't necessarily ultra competitive, these things all work really well in encouraging a Beerhammer style of play. And in general I find that Beerhammer is far less likely to result in people having a bad time.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:48
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SRM posted:Also, speaking of the Badcast, we're looking for advice! We're gonna be talking about what to do when someone is in a bad mood during a game, whether they're just losing real bad or what have you. What do you do when the game's not going well and you're not having fun? What do you do when your opponent is having that experience? When my dice are on fire, I start sort of narrating how it happened to offer an entertaining story. Your warlord just got eaten by my Patriarch? He was slowly hypnotized, but resisted at the last minute and threw himself into the flurry of claws in a desperate attempt to deny the xeno's filthy control! DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR!  Another thing is to celebrate their little victories with them ("Holy poo poo, those guys just got rigiddy-wrecked--what the gently caress are your space marines juicing on?"), mourn their losses, maybe even play up how much the loss of one of your units or objectives hurts you, if that's what'll do it--do what it takes to help them remember that it's more of a game than a competition. Offer take-backs if needed, and once in a while, if you can keep it from seeming like you're patronizing them, come up with some "elaborate plan" rife with risks that just sort of has a high chance to throw a unit or two into a meat grinder. Don't tell them about it per se, just take a wild-rear end risk so your opponent has a good shot to tear up some red meat.Take beer and burrito breaks, too.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:59
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goose willis posted:Well get this, they're gonna make some wacky plot advancement where Fabulous Bill takes on the role of Cawl for Chaos and just happens to have a bottle of Horus juice laying around, so he makes a mega clone of Horus, and then the Imperium responds by taking the juices of all the loyalist primarchs and fusing their power into one and bringing back THE EMPEROR Presenting the future of 40k (just imagine they're like primaris and Bobby G): 
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Sep 11, 2017 22:04
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SteelMentor posted:Honestly, I'd continue the general etiquette from 7th ed wrt Lords of War, ask your opponent if they're cool facing it and offer them a chance to tweak their list if it can't deal with a LoW as it is. My group have all agreed that no-one gets LoW below 2000pts, as well as asking before you field them, and it's really cut down on the bullshit Bobby G lists.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:05
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Little late but when it comes to friendly or unfriendly or competative or easy going games it depends on who brings what. I've always been of the mind special characters lead to an arms race. Someone brings an eldrad to a pick up game you have to bring a Ahriman. Then it escalates. Some are needed to revamp an army to fit a playstyle but some are guilliman in a rando picl up game. I recently got Abbadon because in a battalion with no multiple relics I have 8 CP an something to kill the likes of the ynarri god. List checking an being open is like half of a way to avoid things because to some waac is their fun so you either don't play or you play hard.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:09
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Corrode posted:Mars is insane. The other FW rules are going to have to be incredible to compare to Mars being 'all of Cawl's good points are even better than before, with no drawbacks.' Ehh. Canticles have been pretty mediocre and while it synergizes with Cawl's ability its pretty much two chances to get shroudpsalm in a turn. The aura buff is really nice though. But its a set warlord trait so we'll see how it stacks up against the others.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:20
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Abnormally unfavourable dice rolls are a thing that happens, but they should also be a point of entertainment. True, but I find that in order for that to happen, they have to be ridiculously unfavorable. Like having your terminator squad get DS Mishapped and killed (admittedly not a problem any more) is less entertaining than having say, your Chaos Lord continually whiff against Captain Sicarius, who just keeps making invuln saves he shouldn't, or making 20 consecutive Look Out, Sir rolls followed by 20 consecutive 3++ saves. Bad luck is like bad movies--it's better when movies are really, terribly bad than when they're just very bad. Too much bad luck and even bad sports can write it off as "wow, nothing I could have done here." But lessen that a bit and it becomes frustrating to watch even good plans not pan out. That said, people can definitely mis-attribute bad plans or poor strategy not working out to poor luck, and I think that's where it helps to work with them to figure out how to mitigate that.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:25
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Zark the Damned posted:Presenting the future of 40k (just imagine they're like primaris and Bobby G):
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Sep 11, 2017 22:26
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