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The Punisher has also died and been resurrected by angels, then chopped into pieces and resurrected with the bloodstone. He can be as old or young as the particular writer wants him to be and still have it work. I feel like the best Punisher stories fall into one of two categories: 1. Gritty tales that recognize that the title character is a violent sociopath who lies to himself about his true motivations and is in no way a hero to be looked up to, like Jason Aaron's run. 2. Fun tales that ignore his backstory and war origin and instead shoot the Punisher into space/make him into Frankenstein's monster/Solid Snake spy/etc as a hero using rubber bullets or lasers It's when you try to combine the two that problems begin to arise. For as much as Ennis' run has the title character talk about how he's no hero, Ennis sure doesn't write it that way. And then Matt Fraction had the fun wacky War Journal run with Skrulls and knife guns, but then also has the title character get brainwashed by a hate monger and beat an innocent woman to death and it's just brushed away. Murderous sociopath Punisher can work, but I don't feel like he can work in the proper Marvel universe at all, there's no justification for why any heroes would ever work with the guy.
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Sep 12, 2017 13:09
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Tato posted:I don't feel like he can work in the proper Marvel universe at all, there's no justification for why any heroes would ever work with the guy. They're willing to work with Doom and Magneto, so overlooking previous villainy is kind of what the heroes do.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:49
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Tato posted:1. Gritty tales that recognize that the title character is a violent sociopath who lies to himself about his true motivations and is in no way a hero to be looked up to, like Jason Aaron's run. I mean his stated motivation is pretty much always "I kill because I'm a killer, I will never stop killing because I can always find someone I think needs killing, and if I couldn't I'd just kill myself". Which.....isn't really a lie. It's the thing that makes it that much more disturbing that so many people with guns are into him. Like this dude is suicidal and only marching along because he can usually find someone else he wants to kill slightly more than himself. Is your Punisher onesie a cry for help?
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Sep 12, 2017 16:08
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Rhyno posted:Into what? spiderboy, obviously.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:09
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Even if the Punisher is broken and bad, I think the tone changes drastically depending on who he's being broken and bad to. If he's punching up at criminals who normally do escape the law (Kingpin-types or whatnot) then he isn't good but it makes it easier to create a sympathetic broken individual. When he's punching down and killing people, even dangerous people, who aren't 'outside the law' targets then he just looks like a sociopath murderer choosing easy targets, especially with his former cop/former soldier background. Both are genuinely awful people and both should probably be punched by Spider-Man, but it's the difference between someone who thinks he is doing what is necessary to stop someone who can't be stopped otherwise versus someone who just seems to be a police officer who wants to kill people instead of arrest them.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:53
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Mulva posted:I mean his stated motivation is pretty much always "I kill because I'm a killer, I will never stop killing because I can always find someone I think needs killing, and if I couldn't I'd just kill myself". Which.....isn't really a lie. It's the thing that makes it that much more disturbing that so many people with guns are into him. Like this dude is suicidal and only marching along because he can usually find someone else he wants to kill slightly more than himself. Is your Punisher onesie a cry for help? The vast majority of people (or as we shall call them, Norms.) often miss the point of a stoey/character or get a skewed reading. Like these people who see the Punisher as a guy who has the right idea on how to treat all them criminals and scumbags that the liberal justice system is too soft on. The other perfect example of this is the number of people (mostly rappers) who watch Scarface, and get the idea that the film is about how baller Tony Montana is and how he made it. And somehow forget the last third of the film apart from him saying "Say hello to my little friend."
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Sep 12, 2017 17:06
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The Question IRL posted:The vast majority of people (or as we shall call them, Norms.) often miss the point of a stoey/character or get a skewed reading. No one forgets the last act of Scarface you dweeb, they just admire Tony Montana's ambition and determination.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:22
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(mostly rappers)
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Sep 12, 2017 17:39
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site posted:(mostly rappers) I watched a whole bunch of MTV cribs in the early 2000's. Scarface got mentioned a lot.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:44
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Marvel should really just retire Frank at this point since heroes ignoring his crimes makes him stick out like a sore thumb. Just replace him with the Pun-isher, the hero who knocks out villains with awful puns and lame dad jokes. Have Ryan North write it, I'm sure he'd be up to the task. 
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Sep 12, 2017 19:05
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Gaunab posted:No one forgets the last act of Scarface you dweeb, they just admire Tony Montana's ambition and determination. Tony dies as an out of control baby idiot who wants to gently caress his sister. Admiring that is like admiring the child molester in Happiness because the molester is really determined to gently caress a boy, and does. Way to live your dreams! I can understand the appeal of a rags to riches story that quickly ends in a blaze of glorious gunfire but Scarface kinda lingers on the space between riches and blaze where he's painted as a tacky incestuous moron who's happiness comes from being a junkie.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:15
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The Question IRL posted:The other perfect example of this is the number of people (mostly rappers) who watch Scarface, and get the idea that the film is about how baller Tony Montana is and how he made it. And somehow forget the last third of the film apart from him saying "Say hello to my little friend." Hey, yo, you better not be talking bad about Razor Ramon, mang.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:20
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amigolupus posted:Marvel should really just retire Frank at this point since heroes ignoring his crimes makes him stick out like a sore thumb. Just replace him with the Pun-isher, the hero who knocks out villains with awful puns and lame dad jokes. Have Ryan North write it, I'm sure he'd be up to the task. I don't think he needs to be retired but he probably should be pointed away from NYC crime and just have a couple decades of only fighting/slaughtering the various criminal supergroups like Hydra, Secret Empire, AIM (we had frankencastle now it's time for Robocastle) , Sons of the Serpent/Society, that French one, maybe team up with heroes in Madripoor. Or just team up with Blade and do a big Tomb of Dracula revival.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:24
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I don't think art is beholden to ensuring the worst people on the planet don't take it the wrong way, and it's still bizarre to me to see young people on the left increasingly taking the same position on the need for artists to be socially responsible (while obviously disagreeing about what that means) that we all used to mock social conservatives for taking. Yeah, it's alarming as hell to see police wearing the Punisher symbol (which they may not have even realized was associated with a comic book character), but obviously movies have been pushing revenge fantasies for decades too, so it's not like Marvel getting rid of the Punisher is all it takes to change American society.
Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 19:27
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Don't make Punisher go away but move him into the Deadpool group of comics
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Sep 12, 2017 19:34
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Zachack posted:
I'm trying to imagine an entire subculture inspired by Solondz movies and man... we either dodged a bullet there or the world is mad boring I'm not sure which.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:38
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Gaunab posted:No one forgets the last act of Scarface you dweeb, they just admire Tony Montana's ambition and determination. People don't like Scarface despite the last act, they like it because of the last act. The giant pile of cocaine and going out guns blazing are pretty key elements of the mythology.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:41
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Scarface was the story of being an uncompromising batshit crazy baller and going out guns blazing long before Al Pacino ever starred in the role. Also, I'd say I'm sorry for starting Punisher chat but I'm not, this is the most interesting the Marvel thread has been in a while. A nice break from 'Nick Spencer is a bad writer, as we all know'. To go back to the question of updating the origin to War on Terror instead of 'Nam, I think the unending aspect of Afghanistan is actually one of the biggest issues. Part of the point of the Punisher's war on crime is that it's a war he /knows/ will never end, because his previous one was definitively lost/taken from him with US withdrawal in Vietnam. Why bring the war back home now when he can just reenlist for another tour? You'd need to build a secondary motivation into it that likely dilutes the 'broken man committing a drawn-out, collateral-damage-filled, suicide' narrative.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:11
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Lightning Lord posted:I figure the mafia should always be involved with the Punisher's origin. Yeah, and like I said, there's already a PMC in this new origin... Rhyno posted:Into what? You know, I never really thought about it before but the Comedian is basically Watchmen's Punisher. Anyway, they should just have a miniseries called "Punisher: Not A Hero" and lay it to rest for the people who can't move beyond the surface murdering of "the people who deserve it." The Question IRL posted:The vast majority of people (or as we shall call them, Norms.) often miss the point of a stoey/character or get a skewed reading. Tony Montana: Not A Hero, Much Like The Pubisher, You Dweebs (Mostly Rappers). Zachack posted:Tony dies as an out of control baby idiot who wants to gently caress his sister. Admiring that is like admiring the child molester in Happiness because the molester is really determined to gently caress a boy, and does. Way to live your dreams! Sir, your casual implied racism is astounding, and furthermore
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Sep 12, 2017 20:34
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I liked in the '06 Moon Knight series when Punisher put on a wig and dress to kill a bunch of mobsters. He should do that again.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:40
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Anyway, they should just have a miniseries called "Punisher: Not A Hero" and lay it to rest for the people who can't move beyond the surface murdering of "the people who deserve it." The Punisher's creator has been pretty outspoken about the character not being a hero, and you could make as many series with that title as you like, but some people will still take inspiration in it regardless, just as white supremacists loved American History X because they ignored the parts they didn't like and twisted the message to validate what they already believed. I'm not saying art is wholly free from consequences, or that nobody should ever consider these things, but at some point you can't worry about what awful people will take inspiration from, because they'll find what they're looking for no matter what you do. On the plus side, it's overwhelmingly likely that few, if any, people actually made up their minds about how awesome it is to gun down criminals because of the existence of the character so much as they feel that they found a mascot for beliefs they already have.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:42
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Sinteres posted:I don't think art is beholden to ensuring the worst people on the planet don't take it the wrong way, and it's still bizarre to me to see young people on the left increasingly taking the same position on the need for artists to be socially responsible (while obviously disagreeing about what that means) that we all used to mock social conservatives for taking. Yeah, it's alarming as hell to see police wearing the Punisher symbol (which they may not have even realized was associated with a comic book character), but obviously movies have been pushing revenge fantasies for decades too, so it's not like Marvel getting rid of the Punisher is all it takes to change American society. people keep saying this, and it's weird and disingenuous, because the message isn't that art should be beholden to ensuring the worst people on the planet don't take it the wrong way, it's that art shouldn't be made in such a way that basically ensures the worst people on the planet are gonna take off with it and start worshipping it like a Coke bottle that fell from the sky.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:59
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I think the Punisher should be less like Death Wish and more like Death Wish 3.
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Sep 12, 2017 21:09
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Alaois posted:people keep saying this, and it's weird and disingenuous, because the message isn't that art should be beholden to ensuring the worst people on the planet don't take it the wrong way, it's that art shouldn't be made in such a way that basically ensures the worst people on the planet are gonna take off with it and start worshipping it like a Coke bottle that fell from the sky.
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Sep 12, 2017 21:12
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Alaois posted:people keep saying this, and it's weird and disingenuous, because the message isn't that art should be beholden to ensuring the worst people on the planet don't take it the wrong way, it's that art shouldn't be made in such a way that basically ensures the worst people on the planet are gonna take off with it and start worshipping it like a Coke bottle that fell from the sky. That's literally impossible. You're asking artists to be able to govern the consumer's interpretation, and that's a fool's errand, especially in the current media/information environment. The absolute best-case scenario in this instance would be a general watering-down of media to the most lukewarm, unchallenging possible denominator, and even then somebody could probably gin up a controversy out of thin air. A good example is how "Bella and the Bulldogs" became a white-supremacist/alt-right lightning rod. These are people who are already very good at twisting incoming information to suit their worldview and nothing you can do will preemptively prevent them from doing it. Sure, there are some topics and genres that some writers shouldn't touch, because they'll likely bungle the execution. Nick Spencer is just fine when he's writing about genial gently caress-ups who are currently loving up, and when he goes outside that very narrow band of proficiency, it's a dumpster fire. Dan Slott is a perfectly good comedy writer who falls on his rear end when he tries for high-stakes action/drama. That doesn't mean there's any point to a blanket condemnation of certain topics, approaches, genres, or themes, because you're trying to govern someone else's reaction.
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Sep 12, 2017 22:15
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RandallODim posted:Scarface was the story of being an uncompromising batshit crazy baller and going out guns blazing long before Al Pacino ever starred in the role. There are mental health requirements to serving in the army. I imagine Frank can't re-enlist due to them.
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Sep 12, 2017 23:37
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Zoro posted:There are mental health requirements to serving in the army. 
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Sep 12, 2017 23:45
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Zoro posted:There are mental health requirements to serving in the army. I imagine Frank can't re-enlist due to them. 👏👏👏
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Sep 13, 2017 00:04
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Wanderer posted:That's literally impossible. You're asking artists to be able to govern the consumer's interpretation, and that's a fool's errand, especially in the current media/information environment. look all i'm asking is maybe don't make punisher comics about him going into ghettos and blasting every hoodlum he sees that's really all i want
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Sep 13, 2017 02:04
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Isn't he popular for the same reason ghost rider is popular? You can pretend he's a good guy because he's a demon killing other demons?
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Sep 13, 2017 02:29
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Billzasilver posted:Isn't he popular for the same reason ghost rider is popular? You can pretend he's a good guy because he's a demon killing other demons? I'm pretty sure the flaming motorcycle plays into the popularity too.
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Sep 13, 2017 02:33
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Yeah The Punisher is just a bad guy who kills other bad guys. Ghost Rider is just Metal as gently caress.
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Sep 13, 2017 02:36
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Billzasilver posted:Isn't he popular for the same reason ghost rider is popular? You can pretend he's a good guy because he's a demon killing other demons? The Punisher would look out of place on a Megadeth album cover; Ghost Rider would not. Ergo, they are dissimilar in all the ways that matter. 
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Sep 13, 2017 04:17
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Danny Ketch Ghost Rider was straight up a good guy. Only came around when the blood of the innocent was spilled.
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Sep 13, 2017 04:40
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Codependent Poster posted:Danny Ketch Ghost Rider was straight up a good guy. Only came around when the blood of the innocent was spilled. Ketch Rider best Rider.
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Sep 13, 2017 05:13
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David D. Davidson posted:Yeah The Punisher is just a bad guy who kills other bad guys. Ghost Rider is just Metal as gently caress. Psh just give pubisher a sniper rifle and have him stand on a skyscraper gargoyle and you attract the exact same demo Edit: the EXACT same demo  
Billzasilver fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 11:30
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Maybe if the skull on Punisher's shirt was on fire???
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Sep 13, 2017 16:26
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The new Miss Marvel was okay. I don't think it was good as the last one, but it was an okay ending. It kind of just felt like it ended though. You know what I mean? Not a big bang like I was expecting. But, it feels like they're trying to set up more with it that's going to come up later. So I guess it isn't really the ending. What everyone else think?
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Sep 13, 2017 16:29
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Zoro posted:The new Miss Marvel was okay. I don't think it was good as the last one, but it was an okay ending. It kind of just felt like it ended though. You know what I mean? Not a big bang like I was expecting. But, it feels like they're trying to set up more with it that's going to come up later. So I guess it isn't really the ending. What everyone else think? They cancelled Ms. Marvel?
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Sep 13, 2017 16:35
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Ms. Marvel is still continuing after this issue.
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Sep 13, 2017 16:52
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