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cellphones were only made so your boss and/or parole officer can reach you at all times
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:33 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 06:38 |
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Jazerus posted:i have no objections to a full employment/reduced work week scheme right this very second. it's a good idea. but it's the stopgap, rather than ubi being the stopgap. public works that paid pretty well and guaranteed a job to all would definitely eliminate the bullshit low-value private sector jobs that can be automated away though, if the public works program lasted long enough, and then you have to start thinking about how you're going to go forward from there. if people were directed out of low-value bullshit jobs that only exist because of perverse capitalist incentives into high-value jobs, our society could be transformed and maybe we could even start conceiving of a live-able UBI system. right now that is so far beyond what we are capable of though that to propose it to people should be considered untenable.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:35 |
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Serf posted:me, under capitalism: robots are bad
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:36 |
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Al! posted:it always comes down to some guy deciding that housework isnt socially necessary labor
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:39 |
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Al! posted:the biggest and reasonable criticism of UBI is that different people have wildly different needs depending on locality, health, ability, etc. so actually designing a UBI system that truly takes care of people's survival needs is an incredibly difficult to hit moving target (ha ha just kidding, all you would need is to hire enough case workers to handle a full load) Locality shouldn't be factored into UBI. No one NEEDs to live in New York City, but if the rentier class wants their starbucks they should have to pay for their barista's to live there everyone else can and should leave immediately.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:39 |
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comedyblissoption posted:i think that a back of the envelope calculation based on gdp per capita shows that we cannot have a UBI that by itself is considered live-able today. the masses of people still need to absolutely labor to provide a modern standard of living. can you even name a $ figure that you consider live-able? a decent livable UBI is only achievable or useful if we first de-commodify the various necessities of living if food and housing and healthcare and education and childcare and probably a few more things are guaranteed to people then everyone could probably easily live very well on 50k per person of course at that point you're most of the way to full communism anyway
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:40 |
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Locality shouldn't be factored into UBI. No one NEEDs to live in New York City, but if the rentier class wants their starbucks they should have to pay for their barista's to live there everyone else can and should leave immediately. this is like every lib's plan to fix america by forcibly relocating rural residents to cities
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:41 |
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the bitcoin of weed posted:if food and housing and healthcare and education and childcare and probably a few more things are guaranteed to people then everyone could probably easily live very well on 50k per person
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:43 |
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deadgoon posted:here's enough UBI to support whatever u think the ethical baseline should be i would totally start doing conservation corp work again. busting rocks in 110 degree heat owns when your doing it in national parks
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:44 |
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I didn't realize until now that they dude was living in a dirt crawlspace under a house.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:44 |
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deadgoon posted:here's enough UBI to support whatever u think the ethical baseline should be a gig economy would actually probably work pretty well with a robust ubi
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:45 |
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comedyblissoption posted:that 57k GDP figure per person is generated by the current economic output of the US society. you cannot economically implement a 50k per person UBI today. the GDP to even consider that would require substantially more economic productivity of the society. this only makes sense if you assume that our current system is anything approaching efficient
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:46 |
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Agean90 posted:my biggest issue with ubi is that lovely landlords wouod hike their rents by however much the ubi is Owning residential property besides the house you personally live in is punishable by guillotine.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:47 |
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Al! posted:a gig economy would actually probably work pretty well with a robust ubi srriously seasonal govment work owned and id still be doing it if I was more finacially secure
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:47 |
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OatmealRaisin posted:this is like every lib's plan to fix america by forcibly relocating rural residents to cities at some point with climate change becoming worse and worse the fantasy of the suburb as bullshit as it is might have to come to an end at the same time, housing in cities like new york especially is hosed up for poor people, living in roach infested basement closets for upwards of $700/mo. forming and enforcing a universal standard of living to bring an end to the exploitation of the vulnerable is essential
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:47 |
the bitcoin of weed posted:a decent livable UBI is only achievable or useful if we first de-commodify the various necessities of living i'm pretty sure most folks could live reasonably on like $10k per person at that point. if you're guaranteeing housing then you're eliminating the biggest source of regional variation in expenses. but that still has a much higher cost than just the $10k since you've got the necessities in there separately. comedyblissoption posted:that 57k GDP figure per person is generated by the current economic output of the US society. you cannot economically implement a 50k per person UBI today. the GDP to even consider that would require substantially more economic productivity of the society. the us gov could print a shitload more money to make up some of this gap, for one thing. under a modern monetary theory analysis, the federal government spends waaaay less money than it should to maintain a healthy inflation rate at the moment, that's why the fed has to do quantitative easing $50k per person is higher than i would have pegged it, maybe $30k? some places would be unliveable on ubi at that rate but who knows, maybe that would revive rural america in a good way
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:47 |
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what im saying is to talk about a live-able UBI today is unproductive. it is economically impossible in our current situation. your definition of "live-able" would need to be shared with zuckerberg and be either squalor or alaskan-like supplementary income. there are more important issues to focus on (e.g. medicare for all, converting the economy to worker co-ops, etc.) before that issue.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:48 |
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Owning residential property besides the house you personally live in is punishable by guillotine. this is important guillotine landlords and double-guillotine developers
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:49 |
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Taintrunner posted:at the same time, housing in cities like new york especially is hosed up for poor people, living in roach infested basement closets for upwards of $700/mo. forming and enforcing a universal standard of living to bring an end to the exploitation of the vulnerable is essential hahaha lollllllllllll AHAHahahahaha try 1.4k a month in a garbage area. thats if you're lucky.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:49 |
also yeah i agree with al! that gdp per capita right now doesn't have that much bearing on what a rationally organized socialist economy could do with the same resources
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:50 |
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Taintrunner posted:at the same time, housing in cities like new york especially is hosed up for poor people, living in roach infested basement closets for upwards of $700/mo. forming and enforcing a universal standard of living to bring an end to the exploitation of the vulnerable is essential $700/mo??????? woah tell me about this miracle deal you got
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:51 |
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Jazerus posted:i'm pretty sure most folks could live reasonably on like $10k per person at that point. if you're guaranteeing housing then you're eliminating the biggest source of regional variation in expenses. but that still has a much higher cost than just the $10k since you've got the necessities in there separately. quote:the us gov could print a shitload more money to make up some of this gap, for one thing. under a modern monetary theory analysis, the federal government spends waaaay less money than it should to maintain a healthy inflation rate at the moment, that's why the fed has to do quantitative easing
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:51 |
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Taintrunner posted:this is a huge problem, yeah. it'd be like gentrification on kerosene Yeah this is why I support decommodifying food, energy, healthcare, housing, transport, internet stuff (like google, apple, facebook, amazon) etc. in conjunction with a UBI, plus strong anti-monopoly policy regulating production of what I guess you would call "nonessential" goods and services
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:51 |
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Just for the record there is already a UBI vs Job Guarantee thread in C-SPAM: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3819512 If you're going to have a serious and really productive conversation I'm not sure if the Suck Zone is the best place for that
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:52 |
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Serf posted:me, under capitalism: robots are bad I don't fear the robots taking over because I believe that we as human beings are probably too stupid to figure out our own problems, but a well-constructed, self-replicating AI can probably get off this rock and thrive long after we're gone. It's our evolutionary destiny.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:52 |
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Jazerus posted:also yeah i agree with al! that gdp per capita right now doesn't have that much bearing on what a rationally organized socialist economy could do with the same resources
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:53 |
comedyblissoption posted:you need to factor in any other social welfare programs along with UBI to provide a compelling economic argument that such a program is possible. you can't just handwave away housing and not include that in your UBI costs. that's exactly what i said in the part that you quoted comedyblissoption posted:maybe you should focus on convincing people to support a rationally organized socialist economy before you browbeat them into supporting a UBI system that is fundamentally impossible even if you had the political power to try to implement the policy i already agreed that that should be the first step are you even reading my posts??
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:54 |
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ubi doesn't mean that some people work all day and some people play all day it means that some people do work that generates money for corporations and some people do work that doesn't line the pockets of wealthy capitalists there's a ton of important work that gets ignored because no rich person is willing to pay someone a living wage to do it
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:54 |
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exquisite tea posted:I don't fear the robots taking over because I believe that we as human beings are probably too stupid to figure out our own problems, but a well-constructed, self-replicating AI can probably get off this rock and thrive long after we're gone. It's our evolutionary destiny. gently caress those AIs. either we go together or no one goes at all
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:54 |
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OatmealRaisin posted:this is like every lib's plan to fix america by forcibly relocating rural residents to cities Lol gently caress that. If I could I'd be gone from NYC post-haste. I'd come visit via train every few weeks. But if it were cheaper to live here I wouldn't mind as much. However because I have to work, I currently have to live here.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:56 |
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Lol gently caress that. If I could I'd be gone from NYC post-haste. I'd come visit via train every few weeks. But if it were cheaper to live here I wouldn't mind as much. However because I have to work, I currently have to live here. it's cool that you have the flexibility to up and gently caress off without a second thought if not chained to your desk lots of people don't
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:57 |
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comedyblissoption posted:maybe you should focus on convincing people to support a rationally organized socialist economy before you browbeat them into supporting a UBI system that is fundamentally impossible even if you had the political power to try to implement the policy
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 20:59 |
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comedyblissoption posted:what im saying is to talk about a live-able UBI today is unproductive. it is economically impossible in our current situation. your definition of "live-able" would need to be shared with zuckerberg and be either squalor or alaskan-like supplementary income. there are more important issues to focus on (e.g. medicare for all, converting the economy to worker co-ops, etc.) before that issue. what's so hard about "enough that nobody ever has to worry about rent, food, or healthcare"?
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:03 |
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OatmealRaisin posted:it's cool that you have the flexibility to up and gently caress off without a second thought if not chained to your desk That is what UBI would allow people to do, which is exactly what we have been talking about the past 2 pages. In anycase, UBI can't happen until a lot of other stuff does, but M4A/UHC whatever, can happen, should happen, and will happen.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:03 |
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Serf posted:gently caress those AIs. either we go together or no one goes at all we're insurance to ensure the machine doesn't break down during the AI's grand projects well, that and fuel
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:04 |
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Main Paineframe posted:what's so hard about "enough that nobody ever has to worry about rent, food, or healthcare"? rich people might have to pay more taxes
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:07 |
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How did you find a picture of my posting lair?
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:22 |
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I can't decide if UBI is a first step to socialist utopia or capitalist dystopia. Though I have a hard time believing it could lead somewhere worse than the US is today, where oligarch's are so rich and powerful they can have our politicians deny climate change at the expense of the entire planet.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:38 |
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Alpha Mayo posted:I can't decide if UBI is a first step to socialist utopia or capitalist dystopia. Though I have a hard time believing it could lead somewhere worse than the US is today, where oligarch's are so rich and powerful they can have our politicians deny climate change at the expense of the entire planet.
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:39 |
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# ? May 9, 2024 06:38 |
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comedyblissoption posted:you need to factor in any other social welfare programs along with UBI to provide a compelling economic argument that such a program is possible. you can't just handwave away housing and not include that in your UBI costs. What would you say would be the best way to convert the American economy into coops?
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# ? Sep 19, 2017 21:39 |