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+1 to Paracaidas  Edit oh god see end of previous page I still do not know how to copy links on phone
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Sep 21, 2017 00:46
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stop calling things which are bad "Freedom" or "Rights" you hopelessly dumb clowns
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Sep 21, 2017 00:48
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from that think progress piece: quote:The month of September has been bombarded with health care bills. This week alone, Democrat and Republican senators introduced both a single-payer plan and an Affordable Care Act (ACA) repeal and replacement plan. But the most important bill has yet to be released. Language to the only health bill that’ll immediately secure the ACA marketplace and relieve nearly 22 million people of stress next year — and a host of coverage providers — will be released soon. quote:Thirty-eight House members of the New Democrat Coalition, including Rep. Bera, sent a letter to Sen. Alexander and HELP committee ranking member Patty Murray Friday, thanking them for holding hearings. In the letter, House members listed some of their own ideas, one of which is sure to make it in the Senate bill: paying CSR payments to insurance companies. When asked if New Democrat Coalition members could sign off on a Senate bill that includes Republican ideas like copper plans, Bera said there’s “openness.” the article seems overly fair to democrats, since they've championed copper plans in the past, so i'm not sure what your objection to it is paracaidas
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Sep 21, 2017 00:57
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Cease to Hope posted:stop calling things which are bad "Freedom" or "Rights" you hopelessly dumb clowns Guilty as charged on all counts.  Countersuggestions?
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Sep 21, 2017 01:14
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I'd prefer we call it tungsten plans. For when you're tough and can't be hurt easily. Just like tungsten.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:16
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Condiv posted:
It's not that you think the dems are worse than republicans, Condiv - just that you appear to hate them a whole lot more, based on how you spend your time and energy. Niton fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 01:16
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oh please
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Niton posted:It's not that you think the dems are worse than republicans, Condiv - just that you appear to hate them a whole lot more, based on how you spend your time and energy. I think it has more to do with the fact that we can change the Democrats to not be broke brained centrists. We can't fight the GOP for the most part for at least 14 months.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:20
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Condiv posted:mccaskill was boosting the copper plans just last month. Also, I'd like to express my shock that an incumbent Dem senator in a reddish-purple state has indicated her openness to bipartisan reforms in a town hall meeting. Read the line you quoted from the TP article. Assuming it's as written, Congressman Bera indicated the "openness" of his caucus to a "Senate bill that includes Republican ideas like copper plans". What's the alternative here, "Absolutely not, we will not sign anything that contains Republican ideas"? It's certainly a negotiating strategy, but it belies a Trumpian incompetence given the Republican control of Government. Condiv posted:machin and 6 other dems were pushing the copper plan in the vox link in 2014, so i dunno why you think this one in 2017 that has the exact same name would be any better? at the very least, it's an extension of catastrophic plans to the entire population instead of under 30s. most likely it's exactly what dems were pushing in 2014. at worst it's worse than even that. A reasonably comprehensive copper plan (with requirements that it not be the only affordable coverage available to any consumer, may only represent a small fraction of an insurer's business in any county, and meeting minimum price/coverage thresholds) would be a bitter pill to swallow that could still be a better overall outcome for the nation and both the average and marginalized consumer. Let's turn this around: What would you be willing to deal on to get to "shall" on CSR? We've heard that you oppose the ridiculous giveaways you've determined are the Dem's stance based on a thinly sourced piece, a single spokesman's statement and your own conjecture. Do you think there will be damage if the CSRs don't get stabilization? What's it worth to you to mitigate that damage? Condiv posted:
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Sep 21, 2017 01:28
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Niton posted:It's not that you think the dems are worse than republicans, Condiv - just that you appear to hate them a whole lot more, based on how you spend your time and energy. What's bizarre to me is all the time snd effort expended on explaining why the democrats can't possibly do any better and expecting better things from them is unrealistic because we just don't understand the dang process.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:30
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Niton posted:It's not that you think the dems are worse than republicans, Condiv - just that you appear to hate them a whole lot more, based on how you spend your time and energy. this is the dumbest loving poo poo ive ever seen. the criticism is meant to impel people towards reformation and to do better.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:31
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Niton posted:It's not that you think the dems are worse than republicans, Condiv - just that you appear to hate them a whole lot more, based on how you spend your time and energy. spending my time and energy on republicans seems like a waste. either i'd be railing against trump in this subforum, which already has tons of people to do that, or i'd be on another subforum arguing against conservatives, which are way more intransigent and maddening to talk to than the worst dems. at least with dems i disagree with on D&D i have a chance of finding middle ground and reaching an understanding. and that's pretty nice Condiv fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 01:32
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Paracaidas posted:Nah, I explained the logical objections. It's kind of what I'm limited to when there aren't facts to discuss, as you helpfully bold in the TP piece. I wasn't aware I was required to discuss everything that any Dems had, in the past decade, indicated they were willing to work with the GOP on. Shall we discuss how awful it'd be if they offered to sign on to Trump's infrastructure bill in exchange for CSR solidification? What if they built his wall, or attached it to tax reform? Maybe they'll agree to entitlement reform to change it to "shall" on the CSR! we have facts enough of what the copper plans and such entail. that's why i linked that past policy. please stop being obtuse and pretending that the new plan, with more republican influence, is going to be gentler than the 2014 one that had dems like tim kaine on board. and no, we should not be negotiating with republicans in exchange for copper plans and such. doing so is in itself incompetent, as you're going from a position of strength with the backing of the US populace to one that helps the republicans too much in exchange for the can being kicked down the road. quote:In part because it isn't 2014? There is a different President now, and with it a different administration of the ACA, and with it a different set of risks and priorities. The ACA wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. Both you and the public have indicated that you'll hold the GOP responsible for any failures of the ACA, another change from 2014. Manchin has seen his popularity and reelection chances grow substantially since 2017's repeal effort took off. there would be damage, but that damage could and should be laid at republicans' feet. if republicans want to shirk CSR and increase people's premiums through the roof, nail them to the wall on it. that's what they should receive instead of concessions. the dems are out of power. they are completely unable to do anything to prevent premiums from rising due to republican irresponsibility. so make it clear. wield it as a weapon! republicans want to raise your already sky high premiums cause they hate working class americans! that's a message that is easy to broadcast to people right now cause guess what? republicans are currently doing everything in their power to rip away all healthcare for people. make it clear to people that republicans spitefully raised their premiums cause they couldn't rip away healthcare wholesale! compromise is the losing position in this! it makes democrats culpable in republican fuckery. and worst of all, it doesn't prevent the republicans going for repeal again in a year, after their lovely plans destroy ppaca. and it weakens dems' position as defending healthcare as for your theoretical better copper plan, i'm still not sure why you think it'd be better this time around. yes, there's a different president now. and nazis in our streets. and republicans control more of the government than before. there is no reason to believe the copper plans proposed this year will be less terrible than the ones proposed when the republicans had way less power and the dems had more. that's just a ludicrous notion quote:Having been down this path before with you (I think this makes four times?), why don't I save us some time? You read something into my post that isn't there. I make myself more explicit. You declare that's clearly not what I meant and whine about tone while ignoring any of the actual content. When called on it, you declare yourself unwilling to interact with someone so rude and slink off, rather that acknowledging or addressing any points. so what'd you mean by this then? quote:But sure. While the GOP is again aiming to trade the lives of Americans for small tax cuts, save your rancor for the Dems who dared to discuss ways to reinforce our system. It's not telling in the slightest. cause my reading is you're saying i spend too little time attacking the GOP, and too much time being angry at the democrats, echoing earlier sentiments that i hate dems more than i hate republicans. if your criticism is just that i should spend more time attacking republicans, well that's just silly and not worthwhile. there's already a ton of people attacking republicans way better than I can. edit: oh, and so you don't think i'm just slinking away, it's rather late here so i'm going to bed Condiv fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 01:53
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Lol @ anyone who hasn't had condiv on ignore for forever and reads a uspol thread. He's like a computer that takes in facts and spits out the absolute dumbest takes possible.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:00
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Paracaidas posted:What's the alternative here, "Absolutely not, we will not sign anything that contains Republican ideas"? It's certainly a negotiating strategy, but it belies a Trumpian incompetence given the Republican control of Government. Uh, yeah? If it's worse than the status quo, then you make Republicans own it 100%. You don't give them a single vote. You don't "compromise" and give them a bill you'll vote for to make things worse than they are, you vote no.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:02
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Captain Monkey posted:Lol @ anyone who hasn't had condiv on ignore for forever and reads a uspol thread. He's like a computer that takes in facts and spits out the absolute dumbest takes possible. C'mon, 'takes in facts' is a little bit of a falsehood..
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Sep 21, 2017 02:06
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh, yeah? If it's worse than the status quo, then you make Republicans own it 100%. You don't give them a single vote. You don't "compromise" and give them a bill you'll vote for to make things worse than they are, you vote no. Totally agree. How about something with bad elements (e.g. the inclusion of a waiver on something or other) that don't outweigh preventing Donald from destroying the ACA private market? Part of the problem here is that we're mostly arguing hypotheticals, at least regarding the temporarily inhumed compromise 'bill'.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:06
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Uh, yeah? If it's worse than the status quo, then you make Republicans own it 100%. You don't give them a single vote. You don't "compromise" and give them a bill you'll vote for to make things worse than they are, you vote no. That was the point though, to give up some things (e.g. the bronze plans) to get something better than the status quo (stabilization of ACA). Instead the Republicans said no, so we're going to get a bill that only makes things worse and no Democrats should vote for and the Democratic leadership is whipping votes against.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:08
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Captain Monkey posted:Lol @ anyone who hasn't had condiv on ignore for forever and reads a uspol thread. He's like a computer that takes in facts and spits out the absolute dumbest takes possible. He's making some pretty good points here, that are backed up by evidence. If you think the substance of his argument is dumb, tell us why.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:37
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e: the metaposting is excessive and disruptive, especially given the sixer. I stand by it, but the posting histories of condiv and I are not conducive to discussion. Modifications throughout.Condiv posted:we have facts enough of what the copper plans and such entail. that's why i linked that past policy. please stop being obtuse and pretending that the new plan, with more republican influence, is going to be gentler than the 2014 one that had dems like tim kaine on board. As I posted: The public now polls favorably on the ACA and says they see the GOP as responsible for future problems. This changes their motivations. Manchin has gone from being in substantial risk to leaning towards reelection ever since Repeal Circus 2017 kicked off-for him specifically, and for other Dems, this signals that defending and improving the ACA is no longer a liability but an asset. This changes their motivations. We agree that the Copper Plan, as discussed in 2014 or in the TP piece, would be awful. There is nothing to back up the idea that it must be this way. As I posted, there are implementations that would not be catastrophic. Again, it could be that the Dems are desperately trying to give away the farm in exchange for magic beans. That would be awful. I'd be opposed to it. But in the absence of any facts or reporting, all we have is conjecture. Which could be reasonable, except I can't see any reason why they'd be doing it outside of Dems are a Waste. So either Dems are a Waste, or the outrage press is making mountains out of molehills again. Condiv posted:there would be damage, but that damage could and should be laid at republicans' feet. if republicans want to shirk CSR and increase people's premiums through the roof, nail them to the wall on it. that's what they should receive instead of concessions. the dems are out of power. they are completely unable to do anything to prevent premiums from rising due to republican irresponsibility. so make it clear. wield it as a weapon! republicans want to raise your already sky high premiums cause they hate working class americans! that's a message that is easy to broadcast to people right now cause guess what? republicans are currently doing everything in their power to rip away all healthcare for people. make it clear to people that republicans spitefully raised their premiums cause they couldn't rip away healthcare wholesale! *cut to Breitbart headline, 2018* "Insurance Premiums increased? More White Genocide from the Illegals" Condiv posted:and no, we should not be negotiating with republicans in exchange for copper plans and such. doing so is in itself incompetent, as you're going from a position of strength with the backing of the US populace to one that helps the republicans too much in exchange for the can being kicked down the road. Paracaidas posted:I regret to inform you that the crew who knows fuckall about process is very upset about process. Condiv posted:cause my reading is you're saying i spend too little time attacking the GOP, and too much time being angry at the democrats, echoing earlier sentiments that i hate dems more than i hate republicans. if your criticism is just that i should spend more time attacking republicans, well that's just silly and not worthwhile. there's already a ton of people attacking republicans way better than I can. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 21, 2017 03:05
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The 2011 budget/debt ceiling debates are still what take hold in my memory whenever I'm considering the Democrats' negotiating prowess, so my baseline expectations about "compromise" when "stabilization" is the word-of-the-day are... low.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:21
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Majorian posted:He's making some pretty good points here, that are backed up by evidence. If you think the substance of his argument is dumb, tell us why. That would be difficult, since I have him on ignore. Also I'm not interested in responding to Condiv's temporary bouts of coherency.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:39
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The 2011 budget/debt ceiling debates are still what take hold in my memory whenever I'm considering the Democrats' negotiating prowess, so my baseline expectations about "compromise" when "stabilization" is the word-of-the-day are... low. That's absolutely fair. That came after a colossal wave where the Dems were near historic lows and little perceived mandate to govern despite retaining power... and where they absolutely needed to make a deal due to the catastrophic consequences of failure. I take heart from the Dems being out of power and the GOP plausibly having a selfinterested motivation to fix the bill. As Trabs mentioned, nobody is advocating that Dems join a bill that makes things worse just to "appear bipartisan". But if they can work a bill that winds up being a positive despite the concessions they make, I don't believe they should allow American healthcare to degrade just because it might hurt the GOP. I question how much the looming idea of Single Payer plays into this dynamic as well. The worst thing for SP in the early 2020s would be a stable Obamacare with some bipartisan appeal (though that may be a better outcome for UHC longterm). For those who are willing to take an accelerationist view towards getting SP but don't quite want to commit to GCHJ/BRCA/AHCA, the CSRs crumbling and dissatisfaction increasing would be the best scenario. Jizz Festival posted:What's bizarre to me is all the time snd effort expended on explaining why the democrats can't possibly do any better and expecting better things from them is unrealistic because we just don't understand the dang process. Captain Monkey posted:That would be difficult, since I have him on ignore. Also I'm not interested in responding to Condiv's temporary bouts of coherency.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:49
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Paracaidas posted:Did you take a wrong turn? It appears you think you're in the white noise and weak burn thread. I assure you, you are not. Muffley: Gentlemen, this is outrageous. I have never heard of such behavior in the war room before.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:52
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Glad to see the USPOL thread living up to its expectations.
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Sep 21, 2017 05:16
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Paracaidas gets 24 hours, condiv 6. Proof of the mods' anti-centrist agenda
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Sep 21, 2017 05:19
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Mustached Demon posted:I'd prefer we call it tungsten plans. tungsten will shatter pretty easily, copper is way tougher in general imo
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Sep 21, 2017 05:41
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I have no idea what this avatar is or who figured it was a good use of their money to get it but it was probably somebody in this thread and it's highly amusing so thanks I guess.  Domestic Amuse posted:Glad to see the USPOL thread living up to its expectations. Oh come on it's not THAT bad really.....though how on the nose it is with being about U.S Politics and mirroring it's us vs. them "gently caress the other guy" petty squabbling and feuding over sometimes important issues definitely feels appropriate. 
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Sep 21, 2017 05:47
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Kale posted:I have no idea what this avatar is or who figured it was a good use of their money to get it but it was probably somebody in this thread and it's highly amusing so thanks I guess. I think it's a corncob. Are you denying that it's a corncob?
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Sep 21, 2017 05:50
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Jizz Festival posted:I think it's a corncob. Are you denying that it's a corncob? I choose to poll the thread for the right opinion on this matter and make whatever the majority opinion is my answer. 
Kale fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 05:52
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Calibanibal posted:Paracaidas gets 24 hours, condiv 6. Proof of the mods' anti-centrist agenda who's the greater fool: the fool, or the fool who quote-replies him for 600 words?
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Sep 21, 2017 05:56
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ps post about politics topics and not posters or the thread. report posts about posters or the thread. don't post about the ignore function. bye
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Sep 21, 2017 05:57
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R. Guyovich posted:ps post about politics topics and not posters or the thread. report posts about posters or the thread. don't post about the ignore function. bye I've gotta say I'm a big proponent of this idea. Unfortunately I don't expect any "big moves" to start happening until at least Monday when the GOP probably mad scrambles to pass some version of Cassidy/Graham and call it a big win. I can talk about Puerto Rico though and how hosed it is that the governor doesn't expect power to be restored to the island for months and how I can't imagine the Trump administration is going to do a whole lot in fostering aid from the mainland for it's territory. Congress is probably going to be too busy trying to cram Graham/Cassidy through before the reconciliation expires to earmark anything before the end of the month either. Kale fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 06:00
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Kale posted:I have no idea what this avatar is or who figured it was a good use of their money to get it but it was probably somebody in this thread and it's highly amusing so thanks I guess. Sea-lioning dog-whistle didn't work out so you're sea-lioning corn-cob now? I'm pretty sure you sea-lioned sea-lioning already. e: R. Guyovich posted:ps post about politics topics and not posters or the thread. report posts about posters or the thread. don't post about the ignore function. bye Oh poo poo. Uh.. This healthcare bill sucks and doesn't seem like budget reconciliation to me. I'd call my senator but I'm in Arkansas and their numbers are auto-forwarded to Satan. e2: Oh wait, one of my senators is Tom Cotton and I've heard he's a great guy, I'm sure only wonderful things can come of me letting him know he might be making a bad decision by voting yes. RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 06:09
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RandomBlue posted:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, call him with my message for Ted Cruz: full repeal or no loving deal. This wimpy-rear end insufficiently-murderous bill is caving to the limp-wristed RINO establishment, and the voters of Arkansas expect a stronger, more principled stand.
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Sep 21, 2017 06:55
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RandomBlue posted:
Unless you're from Maine, Alaska or Arizona it just doesn't look like a Republican senator is going to give a poo poo what the constituents think on this one regardless of how nice and considerate they seem to be at town halls or in radio calls or whatever. If they did they wouldn't still be trying to bum rush a bill though congress that even polls wildly unpopular with Republican voters. There's a lot to be said for trying to "get a win" for people that wouldn't even consider it one too. I mean let's see how the CBO scores this next week but every time they've tried this "process" it's come back with a poo poo score which I'd imagine is in part because just trying to write bills that gently caress over or undo the other parties signature legislation doesn't actually accomplish a whole lot for the American people and is conducive to at worst outright bad policy and at best non-policy. See part about where the last bill forgot the whole replacement part and they were still a single vote away from passing it. It's kind of amazing sometimes to think that Bill Clinton came out of Arkansas by the way. Of course that was then and this is now but still probably the last time you'll ever see a Democrat carry your state. Raskolnikov38 posted:bipartisanship in its dictionary form does not exist among the public writ large, it's a stand in for "I want the other side to capitulate unconditionally to the program I support". This guy gets it Kale fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 07:00
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Trabisnikof posted:That was the point though, to give up some things (e.g. the bronze plans) to get something better than the status quo (stabilization of ACA). problem is that what was being suggested is not better than the status quo. it's a very temporary status quo in exchange for weakening the protections ppaca provided. so it was a bad compromise. Paracaidas posted:I explain a few of the reasons why 2017 is different than 2014, and why those factors could make for a stronger negotiating position. You reject them or wholesale ignore them and label me obtuse and the concept ludicrous. It's such a charming dance we have. except for the details we have already show that copper plans are at the very least extending the catastrophic plans to the whole populace. considering deductibles and copays for ppaca are already way too high, this is a bad compromise. quote:At least you're not hiding your accelerationism on this topic. For the record, still some ghoulish, callous poo poo. Instead of making literally any attempt to help you, we'll go ahead and watch things turn to poo poo. And trust that you'll blame the GOP for it. A foolproof plan, since they're typically punished for their bullshit. its not accelerationism. falling for the republicans' hostage taking hasn't won us anything all the times it's happened before. i'm sure you remember the super committee, and how well that compromise ended up working for us, and i don't expect this to go any better on the other hand, letting republicans transform ppaca into ahca piece by piece delegitimizes dems on this issue and gives republicans exactly what they want (they get to claim they fixed healthcare, and if poo poo goes bad they get to blame it on the dems)
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Sep 21, 2017 08:48
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It sounds like that tentative outreach to Republicans won't actually become law. If they can look bipartisan enough to court moderate votes in the Senate while not actually sacrificing anything (because there's no actual law that comes from this), who is playing who?
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Sep 21, 2017 11:52
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The Democrats are always being played, of course. See all of the things they've been forced to concede since Trump took office. Seriously though, like I said before all of this "compromising" and the like means nothing if it doesn't get into a bill that gets voted through. And considering the GOP right now, and "compromise" that keeps even a gutted ACA is intolerable to the hard right.
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Sep 21, 2017 12:27
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Democrazy posted:It sounds like that tentative outreach to Republicans won't actually become law. If they can look bipartisan enough to court moderate votes in the Senate while not actually sacrificing anything (because there's no actual law that comes from this), who is playing who? The Democrats (or really their supporters) That strategy us what cost them the 2016 elections and it's even worse to do it when your base is literally screaming at you to take the initiative on something
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Sep 21, 2017 13:24
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This is why the Democrats deserves to be destroyed; they need to constantly be pressured to do anything half-way decent and will blame the people who voted for them for not going to enough fundraising dinners when they don't.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:30
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