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wiegieman posted:I think starports definitely need to be weaker earlier on and stronger later. They're a huge deal in the corvette phase and an unnoticeable speed-bump in the battleship phase, even thought they're apparently the massive complexes that are churning out your deathfleets. Militia in Bumfuck, Arizona could shoot a few bush planes with riflemen down. New York City would fare super bad against a full squadron of TU-95s by itself.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:12
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wiegieman posted:I think starports definitely need to be weaker earlier on and stronger later. They're a huge deal in the corvette phase and an unnoticeable speed-bump in the battleship phase, even thought they're apparently the massive complexes that are churning out your deathfleets. Yeah, that's another big problem. I tried another machine game, geared up to do an early rush. 13 corvettes, three armies, up against an enemy planet with no starbase. Basically nothing spent, no colony ships, no additonal pops, nothing. The AI has twenty corvettes. Fleet gets wiped, GG. And this is why I always end up playing some kind of tech-up passive pacifist. As much as I want to be a Death-to-all-organics Skynet, it's absurdly frustrating. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 08:26
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Milky Moor posted:Yeah, that's another big problem. Did you have advanced starts on for AI? I always disable those to avoid this kind of annoyance.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:36
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One thing I always forget at the start of a playthrough is that the Fleet cap is not a hard cap. The hard cap is how much you can afford to sustain over fleet cap. The AI never forgets this.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:39
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Fewd posted:Did you have advanced starts on for AI? I always disable those to avoid this kind of annoyance. Nope. Just regular starts. I think someone said a page or two back that the AI just builds as many ships as it can if it is near a human player. Except this went down about a month past first contact, so, they're basically doing it via omniscience. It'd at least be nice if you could catch some early empires off-guard -- particularly the quieter ones. These guys were just the Erudite Explorers and I don't see why they're building up ships past their cap. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 08:41
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My current map has both an Arrakis and a Kerbal system, which please me to no end
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Sep 22, 2017 08:54
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Milky Moor posted:Nope. Just regular starts. If you're going to try and early game rush someone (and let's remember it was you who tried to rush them) you need to have a big enough fleet to kill their fleet and their star port together. This usually means matching their fleet strength + 1,000 ish strength. If you do not do this, they can play defensive and just refuse to fight you away from the star bases, so you would have to know you can catch their fleet in open space (e.g. If you find them fighting some space entity and you attack them there). As soon as you realised they had more corvettes than you, the first thing you should have done is retreated back to your home world, whereupon you would turtle up knowing if they come to try and take your only world, your combined fleet strength plus station strength will smash their fleet (and then allow you to invade). If they refuse to attack (which is the usual response) you just wait until either you can break the deadlock by building more ships, or until they offer white peace. Alternatively you can sit in a huge pile of minerals, engage in fleet fight until you've both taken heavy losses, and while you're fighting have corvettes queued up. Then you essentially hope you can replenish your fleet faster than theirs. If you just build 13 corvettes and fling them at the enemy that doesn't work, so I'm sort of inclined to say this is not an AI issue (as the AI has done what any player would do) and is more of a "you carried out a poorly planned rush" issue. Let's not forget that in terms of their number of ships your starting fleet cap is 15 before modifiers, and the naval cap tech early on boosts that by +15, plus ethics and traditions and leaders can boost it, so it's not even like they were necessarily over their fleet cap. The reality is since spaceports were buffed early game rushes don't really work until you've got at least 4/5 planets settled and you've unlocked destroyers. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 09:02
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Libluini posted:Then it's a bit weird that I'm allowed to put them back into this process again. Is this a bug? I can't reproduce it internally, chances are you're experiencing a temporary glitch or it's been fixed already.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:03
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Improbable Lobster posted:My current map has both an Arrakis and a Kerbal system, which please me to no end If you play star trek the gamma quadrant has both the kerbol system and the klendathu system right next door to each other.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:06
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Update on the double key thing:Paradox Support Rep posted:PLEASE log a support ticket at paradox.zendesk.com when this happens. In particular let us know which of the two keys you redeemed so we can nullify the other one.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:27
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Kitchner posted:If you're going to try and early game rush someone (and let's remember it was you who tried to rush them) you need to have a big enough fleet to kill their fleet and their star port together. This usually means matching their fleet strength + 1,000 ish strength. Good luck "breaking the deadlock" when you pay 100 minerals per pop. Good luck building equal fleet strength + 1000 when every pop you build is one station or one corvette or an improvement or... You turtle up, you just get out-expanded. You get out-expanded, your robot bonuses don't matter because they'll just have enough of a disparity that a 15% damage bonus just means you die slightly slower. A 'Driven Exterminator' should be able to do more exterminating than sitting around, quietly expanding and hoping your neighbours don't get ahead of you (and/or band up to kill you, form defensive pacts to make wars even harder, and so on). Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 09:40
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Milky Moor posted:Good luck "breaking the deadlock" when you pay 100 minerals per pop. Good luck building equal fleet strength + 1000 when every pop you build is one station or one corvette or an improvement or... You turtle up, you just get out-expanded. You get out-expanded, your robot bonuses don't matter because they'll just have enough of a disparity that a 15% damage bonus just means you die slightly slower. Personally, I just think that's the way Stellaris plays right now  Especially with machine empires, they only really start their snowballing mid to late game, even if you are technically a Driven Exterminator, you'll still know if you don't have the raw fire power to take down other empires When I started playing I thought rushing was a viable tactic, but it just didn't work for me. However (this was 1.7 mind you), if I just waited until I got destoryers and a nice positive income, fought hard to win my first war... Everything else fell into place for midgame and I could crush everything in the game. I do agree, however, that as a player in an AI filled galaxy, it would be nice to be able to rush them and start galactic domination ASAP... But for balance reasons (imagine if you could just rush any pacifist player 1 or 2 colonies in and crush them out the game) it makes sense that you can't easily wipe empires off the face of the galaxy that early. You can probably fight a smart war early game, with an intentionally low warscore, if you pick on empires which you know have a colony with no spaceport and you dance around their fleet... But I'd never expect to be winning anything before mid game And now that hull cost is up and upgrades are down, early rushes will probably be even harder since naked corverttes are not the most efficient way to win fights That's my two cents at least, therefore opinion heavy without many actual numbers/facts to back it up
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Sep 22, 2017 10:04
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I dunno if this still works well, but in 1.6 you'd rush destoyers, equip artillery core with missiles, build 10, yes just 10, you can now kill a starport with 0-1 losses and any enemy fleet with roughly the same, as long as you don't try to do both at the same time. This is doable by like 2010? Bait their fleet somewhere with a transport, gank it, then mop up the starport. If starports got significantly buffed, you might need 2-3 more destroyers I guess?
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Sep 22, 2017 10:18
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Early rushing is helped by the use of defence stations to wear down enemy fleets before you tackle them yourself. It's also one of the rare occasions when torpedoes are good, as torpedo corvettes are excellent at taking down stations. You're probably not going to be able to rush as machines, though. Exterminators will need a lot of luck to do it.
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Sep 22, 2017 10:45
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A missile station will trash a lot of corvettes before they ever get in range, and torpedoes are pretty far into the tech tree I think, so I dunno if that's a good idea. Starports sport a ton of weapons, but only like 3-4 large ones, so shooting them from out of range of most of their weaponry is very effective I found. It does mean you kinda have to start with missiles though, since large lasers/projectiles have poo poo range comparatively.
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Sep 22, 2017 10:50
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Truga posted:A missile station will trash a lot of corvettes before they ever get in range, and torpedoes are pretty far into the tech tree I think, so I dunno if that's a good idea. Starports sport a ton of weapons, but only like 3-4 large ones, so shooting them from out of range of most of their weaponry is very effective I found. It does mean you kinda have to start with missiles though, since large lasers/projectiles have poo poo range comparatively. You're not wrong on the tech tree point - torps really should be lower. My point is really to address the, "If you must rush with corvettes..." question. I would agree that waiting for DEs is generally superior.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:02
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Speaking of, is a resource somewhere about how to build competent fleets? I bought the game recently and usually get my rear end kicked by apparently equal strength fleets.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:13
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One way to "rush" is to wait until the AI colonises a planet, then wardec and occupy the new planet before they have a chance to build the starport.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:16
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LordMune posted:I can't reproduce it internally, chances are you're experiencing a temporary glitch or it's been fixed already. Welp, in about 7 hours I'm back from work. I'll test this again then.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:27
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Splicer posted:One way to "rush" is to wait until the AI colonises a planet, then wardec and occupy the new planet before they have a chance to build the starport. This was my strategy. It went badly for other reasons.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:32
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What determines whether my purges will uncolonize a planet?
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Sep 22, 2017 11:50
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A planet with 0 pops gets uncolonized
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Sep 22, 2017 11:57
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Truga posted:A planet with 0 pops gets uncolonized
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Sep 22, 2017 12:01
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No idea about that, sorry. vvv: I think that's a bug that you can even do that. Truga fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 12:09
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 I liberated some planets from an empire as a Machine Empire. They got my civics, all right. They also have no name or form of government.
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Sep 22, 2017 12:15
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Improbable Lobster posted:Is it too early to say if Missiles and Space Torpedoes are good yet? They got the ability to re-target right? They got the ability to retarget, but point defense techs also got buffed, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Sep 22, 2017 12:51
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Milky Moor posted:Good luck "breaking the deadlock" when you pay 100 minerals per pop. Good luck building equal fleet strength + 1000 when every pop you build is one station or one corvette or an improvement or... You turtle up, you just get out-expanded. You get out-expanded, your robot bonuses don't matter because they'll just have enough of a disparity that a 15% damage bonus just means you die slightly slower. I get what you're saying, but even if you weren't a driven assimilator and you were a normal living empire doing exactly what you outlined you did was a bad idea, and if you had known that before hand you wouldn't have done it. If you want to post saying it's so slow to get started as a machine empire that everyone else out expands you and then kicks the snot out of you that's fine, it may be a valid point as I've not played much of the new expansion yet. That's a different issue to "I rushed my neighbour with 13 corvettes and lost to their 20 corvettes". No one can really rush their neighbour with 13 corvettes.
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Sep 22, 2017 12:57
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Rushing requires about 36 corvettes with missiles and that's to take down the space port sans fleet. The fleet you have to ambush.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:18
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I wouldn't have run such a strategy as a normal living empire because of how bad early-game combat is, yes. But, really, losing all diplomacy in exchange for 15% damage bonus, unity from purged organics and apocalypse bombardment isn't great. You get all these combat bonuses that a. don't really alter the playstyle and b. are actually kind of useless because the moment people meet you they Defensive Pact. So, the optimal thing is to sort of sit there and tech up and build up and maybe wage war 15% earlier than you normally would. It just doesn't feel right. That's kind of my summary of playing three Machine games today -- Exterminator and Assimilator. It doesn't feel right. I'm not sure how you're supposed to prevent any neighbouring civilisation from just out-expanding you and then crushing you with their superior fleet and income because they're not spending over a thousand minerals to get a planet inhabited. It feels like Machine Empires should be the 'tall option' people kept asking for, where you can grab and micromanage your core systems and can exploit them to their zenith, but I'm either missing something that makes them 'click' or their fate is to get choked to death once DEs and CAs enter the equation. 500 mineral colony ships with an additional 100 minerals per population is just huge. 100 minerals per planet per month just to get a constant pop growth rate, not factoring in actually building the tile improvement. 1000 minerals just to get a colony to upgrade the 'ship shelter' equivalent. Think about whatever else your neighbouring empires can use 1000 minerals for and, well... If they could colonise barren, toxic or molten then things wouldn't be as bad, but that might be too powerful. Maybe a robot-only tech for each type? A machine template for hostile world colonisation? Whatever late-game advantage the technological terrors might have doesn't really matter if getting there is a roll of the dice. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 13:37
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It's three minerals per month per planet to keep constant growth, not 100. That's nothing compared to the food you'd have to feed a biological pop, place one single mine per planet on a food tile like you would normally place a farm and boom, you're now feeding the growth of that planet. It's really not as bad as you're painting it, machine empires definitely feel like the slow burn that starts out weak but just keeps climbing even after the biologicals slow down/plateau. Being able to colonize every planet type at 100% habitability is a massive advantage, you always get full production from your pops while a biological empire trying to colonize against their preference is gonna get a pittance. Machine empires are not built for early game rushes, you tried to early game rush with one and got hosed, oh well that's how the game works. E: Although I can agree that 15% damage is on the low end for specifically Exterminators, yeah, it could do with a 5-10% buff. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 13:43
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The 15% damage buff is very low, I'd agree - something like 25-30% would be more appropriate. Combine that with the Bulwark of Harmony and you'd get an empire that was very difficult to defeat in the opening phases of the game and would be deadly after it turtled up. Servitors are probably the strongest machine empire right now, both from their Unity generation and the bonus from Servitor morale. Assimilators will be strong once their cyberpops grow naturally.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:43
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Crazycryodude posted:It's three minerals per month per planet to keep constant growth, not 100. That's nothing compared to the food you'd have to feed a biological pop, place one single mine per planet on a food tile like you would normally place a farm and boom, you're now feeding the growth of that planet. It's really not as bad as you're painting it, machine empires definitely feel like the slow burn that starts out weak but just keeps climbing even after the biologicals slow down/plateau. Being able to colonize every planet type at 100% habitability is a massive advantage, you always get full production from your pops while a biological empire trying to colonize against their preference is gonna get a pittance. What kind of robots are you running where it costs you three minerals to build a new robot pop every month? edit: Like, is this some weird post where you think minerals and growth work like food and growth?
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Sep 22, 2017 13:49
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It's not that bad. I've been exponentially expanding like crazy by getting robot modding early and keeping a bunch of templates around for whatever I build them on. Grab synergy early for 33% faster robots and you can go pretty crazy on growth.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:50
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Milky Moor posted:What kind of robots are you running where it costs you three minerals to build a new robot pop every month? I pay 100 minerals, then pay nothing for 30 months while the pop is growing. I am smart enough to budget my mineral expenses so that every 30 months, I have at least 100 minerals laying around. I do this by saving 3 minerals per month, as if the pop was consuming it like food. Multiply by the number of planets that need pops grown. It's not hard.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:52
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How do sectors handle machine empires? Will they still try and grow food for them?
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Sep 22, 2017 13:53
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Anyone know how you get the Machine Template System technology required for the Synthetic Age ascension perk? Guessing i need a nerdbot with a certain trait in the research somewhere.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:14
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 Nice to see the traditional Paradox comet event has been updated for machine empires.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:18
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Played as Assimilators who got curb stomped by a ravening horde next door by like year 30. Clearly the influence of unstable, illogical organics was holding me back, as now my Exterminators are the dominant galactic force until the FEs wake up. Wish there were a summary page that showed all the modifiers impacting my empire. Between being an exterminator, supremacy traditions, fleet academy / battle simulator, and other sources I have no idea what my fire rate bonus is.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:44
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Kitchner posted:If you're going to try and early game rush someone (and let's remember it was you who tried to rush them) you need to have a big enough fleet to kill their fleet and their star port together. This usually means matching their fleet strength + 1,000 ish strength. No, this is all wrong. Early game rushes are done by hitting them in their second or third colonies. The AI typically won't have a starport built on those (unless they're advanced starts) so you don't need to beat the starport, just the opposing fleet. But as noted, the AI will build nothing but corvettes, if they have a player neighbor, until they can't build anymore without destroying themselves. This means as player you need to be building up just as hard. It's actually a bit easier now that tech plays a much bigger role with the new mineral costs, although I haven't had an opportunity to test how much of a difference. If you're going for early rush you do exactly what the AI does, focus on just keeping your head above water on resources and build corvettes like crazy with a few armies for the attack. As soon as you've hit your fleet cap or gone over, are ready to attack, and your opponent has no more than three colonies established, declare war and invade the second and third (if it exists) colonies. That will give you enough war score to either take the homeworld and cripple them permanently, vassalize them, or take every planet. That is how you do early warfare.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:51
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Milky Moor posted:What kind of robots are you running where it costs you three minerals to build a new robot pop every month? People completely loving up basic arithmetic and then doubling down when corrected are my favourite
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Sep 22, 2017 14:57
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