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Echo Chamber posted:How many years after 9/11 do we have to wait before a story that has some war conflict can't be dismissed as "post-9/11". Is Game of Thrones "post-9/11'? The clock would start ticking on that after we manage to end any of the wars we started for 9/11.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:52
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fadam posted:Because it sucks, next question. also quoting this for the next page.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:53
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Echo Chamber posted:How many years after 9/11 do we have to wait before a story that has some war conflict can't be dismissed as "post-9/11". Is Game of Thrones "post-9/11'? "In the Pale Moonlight" wasn't the first episode of DS9.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:54
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Pakled posted:"In the Pale Moonlight" wasn't the first episode of DS9.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:55
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Echo Chamber posted:The first scene of DS9 is Wolf 359. The problem I have with Discovery isn't the presence of war, it's the fact that the entire series appears to be a vehicle for justifying war crimes and subverting the ideals of the Federation because "we're at war now, we can't afford to be soft, the  "
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Sep 27, 2017 05:00
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Echo Chamber posted:The first scene of DS9 is Wolf 359. The premier of DS9 asks the question how can both always move forward in time while being stuck in one moment? The premier of STD asks if you were on Seal Team 6, you'd have aced Bin Laden too, right?
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Sep 27, 2017 05:02
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Echo Chamber posted:How many years after 9/11 do we have to wait before a story that has some war conflict can't be dismissed as "post-9/11". Is Game of Thrones "post-9/11'? Turns out big cultural events have their way of being worked into art and entertainment.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:06
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:The premier of DS9 asks the question how can both always move forward in time while being stuck in one moment? I love this, quoting it to remember.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:06
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Total crackpot conspiracy theory here, but if I was someone with the right influence and hated leftist ideology, I might just try to influence a show featuring a hippy dippy peace-loving leftist utopian future to become increasingly jingoistic and conservative.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:07
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Pakled posted:The problem I have with Discovery isn't the presence of war, it's the fact that the entire series appears to be a vehicle for justifying war crimes and subverting the ideals of the Federation because "we're at war now, we can't afford to be soft, the Nah, the entire series is probably going to be an episode of Trek where we learn the errors of those ways, except rather than wrap it up in an hour, they are going to belabor the inevitable over the course of a full year because they want to imitate "prestige" television.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:08
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Mike the TV posted:Total crackpot conspiracy theory here, but if I was someone with the right influence and hated leftist ideology, I might just try to influence a show featuring a hippy dippy peace-loving leftist utopian future to become increasingly jingoistic and conservative. Not in MY Hollywo- oh, oh poo poo. (A great poster for a terrible movie.)
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Sep 27, 2017 05:09
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Nah, the entire series is probably going to be an episode of Trek where we learn the errors of those ways, except rather than wrap it up in an hour, they are going to belabor the inevitable over the course of a full year because they want to imitate "prestige" television. If this were TNG, Michael Burnham would be the guest character on trial for starting an incident with the Klingons, and it would end with Picard speech-shaming her and end on a bittersweet note that one day she may redeem herself.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:11
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Did we even watch the same premiere? It ended with Michael expressing remorse for her actions. And an implication that the narrative wasn't endorsing her actions. Like... I just don't get the hate. I was entertained by these two episodes. Like... I get the feeling people are projecting what they think would be awful Trek onto this whole show based on two hours that weren't that bad and weren't more "grimdark" or "post-9/11" than where we've seen Trek go before. And I remembered he Trek thread hive mind decided Into Darkness was good back when it came out, even though I knew at that time that it was garbage.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:13
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Echo Chamber posted:Did we even watch the same premiere? It ended with Michael expressing remorse for her actions. And an implication that the narrative wasn't endorsing her actions. Apparently we didn't, because it was fundamentally terrible, from the writing to the cinematography to the characterizations to the plot. Even if it didn't wear the name, it'd be bad television.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:15
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Echo Chamber posted:Did we even watch the same premiere? It ended with Michael expressing remorse for her actions. And an implication that the narrative wasn't endorsing her actions. I absolutely got the impression that the narrative was endorsing her actions. She's ultimately vindicated that the Klingons were going to start a war no matter what and they would have been better off launching a preemptive strike, she's forgiven by her captain remarkably easily, the smug, obstinate admiral who wanted peace gets his ship blown up for his efforts, and the bureaucratic stiffs who throw our protagonist in prison for doing what needs to be done appear all dark and shadowy. Our protagonist is a black female Jack Bauer.
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Sep 27, 2017 05:19
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Pakled posted:I absolutely got the impression that the narrative was endorsing her actions. She's ultimately vindicated that the Klingons were going to start a war no matter what and they would have been better off launching a preemptive strike, she's forgiven by her captain remarkably easily, the smug, obstinate admiral who wanted peace gets his ship blown up for his efforts, and the bureaucratic stiffs who throw our protagonist in prison for doing what needs to be done appear all dark and shadowy. Our protagonist is a black female Jack Bauer. The show also punishes her for the mutiny, not killing the guy she specifically said herself they shouldn't kill so he doesn't become a martyr and instead capture
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Sep 27, 2017 05:29
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Echo Chamber posted:How many years after 9/11 do we have to wait before a story that has some war conflict can't be dismissed as "post-9/11". Is Game of Thrones "post-9/11'? Game of Thrones is post 5/22
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Sep 27, 2017 05:32
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Pakled posted:I absolutely got the impression that the narrative was endorsing her actions. She's ultimately vindicated that the Klingons were going to start a war no matter what and they would have been better off launching a preemptive strike, she's forgiven by her captain remarkably easily, the smug, obstinate admiral who wanted peace gets his ship blown up for his efforts, and the bureaucratic stiffs who throw our protagonist in prison for doing what needs to be done appear all dark and shadowy. Our protagonist is a black female Jack Bauer. Be precise, the Admiral's ship was torn in half by an enormous spiky Klingon ship ramming it head-on. Then he blew himself up as a last ditch act of resistance against a foreign invader.  Or alternately, he blew himself up to save his comrades from a bald enemy flying a supership while wearing a spiky black dress.. Personally I am reminded of the worst movie in the Trek franchise by this moment and that's why this is so off-putting. Yeah it's only two episodes but man, those two episodes, especially the second episode, recall all the worst elements of Nemesis and what came after for Trek. How many times is the captain going to teleport over to nobly sacrifice him/herself in single combat against the spiky black enormous ship? Nemesis? Trek 2009? Into Darkness? Now Discovery. Not good company to keep.By the end of Battle of the Binary Stars I was wishing they'd go back to the kinda stilted first half-hour of The Vulcan Hello. "After action report: Captain Georgieou and Commander Burnham transported to the alien ship to defuse the situation by giving the Klingon leader a Vulcan Hello." Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 05:37
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Trip report: DSC Season 1, episode 1 "The Vulcan Hello" Oh my gosh you guys, this is so bad. I'll note this is exactly what I said about DS9's premiere, so... I don't know. 
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Sep 27, 2017 06:09
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Pakled posted:The problem I have with Discovery isn't the presence of war, it's the fact that the entire series appears to be a vehicle for justifying war crimes and subverting the ideals of the Federation because "we're at war now, we can't afford to be soft, the Everyone on the crew, including the main character by the end of the episode, thought that she was in the wrong. Do we need Rod Serling to come out at the end of the episode and explain that the ends don't justify the means and revenge isn't the answer for you to trust what all the characters on the show are saying? The bad guy wants to unite his people. He views nationalism as the quickest means to that end. Since his people are warriors, instead of yelling "build the wall", he forces his people into a war so they can work together toward a common goal. Its like the evil version of Darmok. The main character isn't perfect and for a while falls into his trap, as did many Starfleet personnel by doing what was expected of them and the Klingon leaders by letting this crap escalate into a war they didn't want. Drink-Mix Man posted:Nah, the entire series is probably going to be an episode of Trek where we learn the errors of those ways, except rather than wrap it up in an hour, they are going to belabor the inevitable over the course of a full year because they want to imitate "prestige" television. I think there is something to be said for taking the time to fully explore an issue instead of just taking it as fact. Sometimes its fine to have Kirk say that Space Nazis are bad and move on, but other times its nice to have Starship Troopers say "OK, if we give the Space Nazis the benefit of the doubt and set up a fascist utopia for them to live in, would they still be assholes?" and then slowly explain that yes, in almost every way are they assholes.
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Sep 27, 2017 06:21
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e: wrong thread. im gay
KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 06:29
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I'm glad we made a new thread, I looked into the STD one for a bit and  I'll just hang out here with you guys.
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Sep 27, 2017 06:36
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Some stuff I'm curious about from the STD pilot that I hope gets explored, plus speculation:
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Sep 27, 2017 06:45
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Nah, the entire series is probably going to be an episode of Trek where we learn the errors of those ways, except rather than wrap it up in an hour, they are going to belabor the inevitable over the course of a full year because they want to imitate "prestige" television. Cat Hatter posted:I think there is something to be said for taking the time to fully explore an issue instead of just taking it as fact. Sometimes its fine to have Kirk say that Space Nazis are bad and move on, but other times its nice to have Starship Troopers say "OK, if we give the Space Nazis the benefit of the doubt and set up a fascist utopia for them to live in, would they still be assholes?" and then slowly explain that yes, in almost every way are they assholes. Even if this is how it turns out, I neither want nor should be expected to tolerate an entire series or season to handhold me through this process like we're all learning it for the first loving time, especially from the central protagonists' perspective. And the two-parter pilot already misfired in the attempt. Even these most optimistic assessments merely present like a tedious retread of better attempts, in more appropriate settings, with almost certainly more effective results in the final tally. Star Trek Discovery -- you'll endure it!
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Sep 27, 2017 07:00
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Grand Fromage posted:I'm glad we made a new thread, I looked into the STD one for a bit and  Also, The Orville is way more delightful than I expected it to be. The comedy barely works, but I'm actually enjoying it as a Star Trek show. You can tell Seth actually really loves TNG, the problem being his ego is so big he thinks he can be a leading man and he really can't pull it off.
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Sep 27, 2017 07:06
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McSpanky posted:Even if this is how it turns out, I neither want nor should be expected to tolerate an entire series or season to handhold me through this process like we're all learning it for the first loving time, especially from the central protagonists' perspective. And the two-parter pilot already misfired in the attempt. Best-case scenario, we're going to waste a season just getting the main character to the point where "Ensign Ro" started...
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Sep 27, 2017 07:12
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McSpanky posted:Even if this is how it turns out, I neither want nor should be expected to tolerate an entire series or season to handhold me through this process like we're all learning it for the first loving time, especially from the central protagonists' perspective. And the two-parter pilot already misfired in the attempt. You are aware that a bunch of people in this country are currently on the opposite side of this issue right now? poo poo, I watch people arguing about how NFL players shouldn't have the freedom to express dissent against the government because it disrespects the national anthem and I think they would be fine just having the show repeat Kirk explaining the Constitution to a bunch of backwards savages that worship it but don't understand the words. (This is probably getting a bit too political, but this is probably what the show runners wanted so mission accomplished?)
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Sep 27, 2017 07:13
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Grand Fromage posted:I'm glad we made a new thread, I looked into the STD one for a bit and Had I known that thread would become an outlet for 4-5 obnoxious shitposters, I'd have just filled the OP with FYAD gifs and Enterprise theme mashups.
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Sep 27, 2017 07:24
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Nah, the entire series is probably going to be an episode of Trek where we learn the errors of those ways, except rather than wrap it up in an hour, they are going to belabor the inevitable over the course of a full year because they want to imitate "prestige" television. Trying to imitate "prestige" television would explain a lot.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:10
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Cat Hatter posted:Everyone on the crew, including the main character by the end of the episode, thought that she was in the wrong. Do we need Rod Serling to come out at the end of the episode and explain that the ends don't justify the means and revenge isn't the answer for you to trust what all the characters on the show are saying? That is a good point. I guess only time will tell whether they use this serialized format to explore ideas or just eat up time with manufactured soap-opera drama.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:25
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I didn't even think the pilot was that bad, it just didn't seem like Star Trek. It's not like a somewhat darker take on things than TNG can't work, DS9 did it but still felt like Trek. There's a reason why lots of us think In the Pale Moonlight is the best Trek episode when it's also one of the darkest ones. We'll see how it goes from here. Honestly I think part of what it was missing and why it doesn't feel Trekky was the lack of ensemble. There's Captain Frenchname, Michael, and weird face science guy. The entire rest of the crew were blank slates. There's that robot helmet thing but otherwise I have zero awareness of any of them. By the end of the other pilots you have met the whole crew and have some basic idea who they are and what's going on. Maybe that'll happen in the next episode.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:44
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As some folks have pointed out, this first couple episodes might just play as a "prequel" to the "real" pilot, the backstory before we really get going.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:46
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Drink-Mix Man posted:As some folks have pointed out, this first couple episodes might just play as a "prequel" to the "real" pilot, the backstory before we really get going. This would be an obnoxious stunt in pretty much any show of any genre, unless something truly next-level incredible came of it down the line.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:54
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Well I'm gonna assume that the real ensemble cast will be in the next episode and that it'll basically just be Michael and the competent fishman that carry over.
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Sep 27, 2017 08:56
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It would make sense to be in the next episode since they weren't even on the Discovery yet. But I do think that was part of why it didn't feel like Trek and am hoping that bringing in other characters will change that. It shouldn't be all resting on a single character.
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Sep 27, 2017 09:03
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Grand Fromage posted:It would make sense to be in the next episode since they weren't even on the Discovery yet. But I do think that was part of why it didn't feel like Trek and am hoping that bringing in other characters will change that. It shouldn't be all resting on a single character.
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Sep 27, 2017 09:21
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I hope Lt. Daft Punk is a series regular on Discovery.
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Sep 27, 2017 09:22
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Pakled posted:Our protagonist is a black female Jack Bauer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P52G4Kyq5M god if only because this would be hilarious to watch in a star trek setting. 24 and jack bauer made for the greatest episode of pretty good also what if we started in the mirror universe and thats why everyone seems like a mustache twirling villain now and michael comes to the real prime reality and stays 
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Sep 27, 2017 09:24
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Drink-Mix Man posted:As some folks have pointed out, this first couple episodes might just play as a "prequel" to the "real" pilot, the backstory before we really get going. I have not watched this yet but from what I'm seeing here, it's sounding like it's the first 5-10 minutes of the first episode of DS9 with the Battle of Wolf-359 except as two episodes instead of 5-10 minutes.
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Sep 27, 2017 09:25
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Steve2911 posted:Well I'm gonna assume that the real ensemble cast will be in the next episode and that it'll basically just be Michael and the competent fishman that carry over. It's this. The Shanzhou crew had zero character because they're essentially featured extras. The pilot is really the first three episodes and CBS should have released them as such instead of spacing it out over two weeks.
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Sep 27, 2017 09:31
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