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Moriatti posted:Also, no love for the Klingons screaming at the heavens to inform them a warrior is coming? That was important to me. That was cool. I like the redesign as well. They look far more menacing and alien, which makes sense because they were an ally in TNG and DS9, so they didn't need to look menacing.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:20
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DS9 was good (among many, many other reasons obviously) because it deviated from the norm for Star Trek; I wouldn't want it to be the norm for Star Trek. I was thinking I'd wait to the end and binge this on Netflix, but maybe I'll have to watch the first couple of episodes after all, seeing as it's produced so much discussion. Not sure if I can go into it neutrally now, though, since I've seen said discussion. 
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Sep 27, 2017 20:21
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skasion posted:I think the Sisko comparison is good for showing why there's no real comparison. Sisko and Burnham are both introduced as having lost family members to alien attacks, but whereas Sisko is explicitly struggling with his grief, trying to be a good officer and single father while leading a life that feels empty and painful, Burnham has buried her grief and denies that it has any effect on her even though that is clearly not true. Sisko doesn't physically confront a Borg in the pilot and viciously kill it against his own best interests at the time; he confronts a former enemy, now a superior officer, who doesn't even realize that he has wronged Sisko until Sisko, clearly furious and barely keeping himself under control, makes him aware. In fact, he never DOES confront the Borg physically, he comes to terms with his grief through understanding who he is and what he feels, not through violence. Burnham is wronged by Klingons, meets Klingons, lies and connives to try and attack the Klingons and present this as moral high ground, kills some Klingons, and loses her only friend and mentor (and career) because of it. DS9 presents a Starfleet officer whose strong moral compass and commitment to learning and exploring see him through his suffering; STD presents a Starfleet officer in denial about her suffering who does morally wrong and violent things in a way that ruin her life. It's actually pretty amazing that there's no borg in DS9. So many other shows would have cheaply used Sisko's past as an excuse to drag the very popular borg out time and time again, but outside of the pilot I don't think the borg are even mentioned once.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:21
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The Defiant was conceived as an anti Borg weapon, but other than that no. Sisko got stationed as loving far away from the Borg as possible.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:23
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If it's any consolation, I went into it with very low expectations and came with them exceeded. That said, promise of character arcs/growth and realisation are two very different things. I'm cautiously optimistic about Discovery. We will see.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:25
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Baronjutter posted:It's actually pretty amazing that there's no borg in DS9. So many other shows would have cheaply used Sisko's past as an excuse to drag the very popular borg out time and time again, but outside of the pilot I don't think the borg are even mentioned once. TBH, I really would've liked them to use this excuse to put Sisko in First Contact.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:26
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Moriatti posted:If it's any consolation, I went into it with very low expectations and came with them exceeded. That's where I am. I could definitely see them loving up and making it super rahrahy which would be horrible though.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:29
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Moriatti posted:TBH, I really would've liked them to use this excuse to put Sisko in First Contact. No! Only Worf! Marketing says Sisko isn't popular enough! Put a janeway cameo in there though.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:30
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PostNouveau posted:Did he? I guess I only remembered that Michael came out of that conversation demanding they attack and then went for a 1-man mutiny to make it happen. So two episodes in and we're already at "Did the Governor set off the prison alarm?" Walking Dead thread territory. Edit: Okay, not to be just 100% snippy but that was an incredibly important scene to forget and the show did everything it was supposed to to highlight that it was that important. Main character (the show) tells the captain (the audience) that she needs to do something alone, main character contacts previously established father figure on communication channel the computer (the show) tells the main character (the audience) that this is an unusual thing to do, father figure spends 1 minute+ not telling the main character what she wants to know before telling her it but even taking another 10 seconds to say that this is not something the main character should immediately do because the circumstances are different. Kibayasu fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 20:32
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Kibayasu posted:So two episodes in and we're already at "Did the Governor set off the prison alarm?" Walking Dead thread territory. Hey, I admitted I let Michael's actions inaccurately color my memory of their conversation. No need to be a prick about it.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:34
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Moriatti posted:TBH, I really would've liked them to use this excuse to put Sisko in First Contact. Same. There's a version of First Contact that only exists in my head where Sisko is in the movie. Sisko replaces Lily's role in the story and acts as Picard's foil \ rival. Worf is kind of stuck in the middle and is torn between his two Captains. Eventually the two Captains put aside their differences and learn to respect each other and work together. It would have been awesome. (Yes, I know Picard and Sisko learn to respect each other and put aside their differences in the DS9 pilot. But First Contact kind of ignores all the TNG episodes with Hugh in them and uncharacteristically makes Picard into Ahab so if they're going to do that, they might as well do this too) You cannot deny Ben Sisko. This version of First Contact exists. In my mind. I created it! And it's REEEEAAAAAAALLL! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFOdQYmTrk
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Sep 27, 2017 20:38
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Baronjutter posted:No! Only Worf! Marketing says Sisko isn't popular enough! Put a janeway cameo in there though. Please don't attack me like this. EDIT: Gammatron 64 posted:(Yes, I know Picard and Sisko learn to respect each other and put aside their differences in the DS9 pilot. But First Contact kind of ignores all the TNG episodes with Hugh in them and uncharacteristically makes Picard into Ahab so if they're going to do that, they might as well do this too) I mean this, but also I think that was left intentionally with some bad blood, if mostly to avoid "well why doesn't Picard visit DS9..." Moriatti fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 20:38
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Moriatti posted:Please don't attack me like this. He's not, he's mocking the producers
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Sep 27, 2017 20:44
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I don't know why people loving STD makes me kinda depressed. Like people are so thirsty for trek they convinced them selves it was good, or just have basically zero standards for writing or characters? Then they get super super defensive about it, yelling that only some pedo turbo nerd could hate such a fun flashy show, and obviously people just hate it because it's dark and edgy and and not dumb and boring and can't get over that 60's or 90's trek is dead. Also a bunch of people are going full Ghostbusters where if you don't like STD it's because you're a sexist racist gamergate.  (not in the thread here, but I'm seeing it all over the usual social media zones)
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 20:45
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Baronjutter posted:I don't know why people loving STD makes me kinda depressed. Like people are so thirsty for trek they convinced them selves it was good, or just have basically zero standards for writing or characters? Then they get super super defensive about it, yelling that only some pedo turbo nerd could hate such a fun flashy show, and obviously people just hate it because it's dark and edgy and and not dumb and boring and can't get over that 60's or 90's trek is dead. The first two episodes of Star Trek Discovery........................................... .............................................................................were okay.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:46
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Gammatron 64 posted:There's a version of First Contact that only exists in my head where Sisko is in the movie. Sisko replaces Lily's role in the story and acts as Picard's foil \ rival. Worf is kind of stuck in the middle and is torn between his two Captains. Eventually the two Captains put aside their differences and learn to respect each other and work together. It would have been awesome. I can hear Avery Brooks yelling "Jean-Luc, blow up the drat ship!" in my head so clearly it hurts.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:47
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Kazinsal posted:I can hear Avery Brooks yelling "Jean-Luc, blow up the drat ship!" in my head so clearly it hurts.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:49
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Kazinsal posted:I can hear Avery Brooks yelling "Jean-Luc, blow up the drat ship!" in my head so clearly it hurts. This would have been a good and interesting movie, but it would never happen because the TNG movies were only TNG movies, they were aimed at TNG fans not the wierd black sheep ds9 nerds. Also marketing shows Picard and Data are the most popular so make everything just about them and give their actors a lot of creative input. Actually what would even have been a good movie is simply a movie starring TV show Picard not weird movie Picard. TV Picard is a solid source of reliable and inspiring ethics way more consistent than the likes of Christ or Buddha. Movie picard is a morally flexible revenge fueled dune buggy enthusiast.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:54
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Moriatti posted:TBH, I really would've liked them to use this excuse to put Sisko in First Contact. But that would cause a different issue... (13:32)
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Sep 27, 2017 20:55
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Baronjutter posted:the TNG movies were only TNG movies
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Sep 27, 2017 20:56
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If you're going with the fantasy version of First Contact then you need to reverse Sisko and Picard too. Picard not only lost ("only") friends and crew members at and before Wolf 359, he was the one that allowed it to happen. He was assimilated. He was left with who knows how much mental trauma. He saw more destruction that the Borg wrought than anybody. And he still refused to genocide them given the opportunity. Sisko, on the other hand, turned down any future postings on ships so he could sit around and obsess over a ship designed specifically to kill Borg. Sisko is the one that will wage (species-specific) chemical warfare to get what he wants, Sisko is the one that will aid and abet the assassination of a foreign government official to trick them into waging war. While I don't think Sisko would actually do so it's far more plausible in my head that, when confronted with the Borg threatening to wipe out humanity's entire existence, he's going to be the one that snaps and goes full Ahab and beging to sacrifice everything and everyone around him to stop it. You even get to have Picard on the planet and Riker in orbit as originally planned, which is the only way Sisko would get to command the Enterprise.
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Sep 27, 2017 20:59
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Kibayasu posted:If you're going with the fantasy version of First Contact then you need to reverse Sisko and Picard too. Picard not only lost ("only") friends and crew members at and before Wolf 359, he was the one that allowed it to happen. He was assimilated. He was left with who knows how much mental trauma. He saw more destruction that the Borg wrought than anybody. And he still refused to genocide them given the opportunity. Someone find me a portal gun so I can watch this dimension's version of the movie.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:02
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If they were making three series on the run now like they were in 90s Trek, they absolutely would have had DS9 crossover movies, and probably aimed for a tent pole blockbuster three-way crossover trilogy with Voyager, special guest starring Nimoy as the final boss Emperor Mirror Spock or something. Realistically though there's no way they could have done justice to a proper DS9 crossover version of First Contact, they already struggle with giving just the TNG crew enough to do in the movies (and FC probably does best out of any of them). Maybe if they added Sisko and O'Brien, but they'd still have given half the cast the shaft.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:04
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Baronjutter posted:I don't know why people loving STD makes me kinda depressed. Like people are so thirsty for trek they convinced them selves it was good, or just have basically zero standards for writing or characters? Then they get super super defensive about it, yelling that only some pedo turbo nerd could hate such a fun flashy show, and obviously people just hate it because it's dark and edgy and and not dumb and boring and can't get over that 60's or 90's trek is dead. To be fair, I think this is a subset of people and depends on what crowd you're talking to. The Star Trek reddit is like this and downvoted me into oblivion. And I wasn't even making GBS threads on it, I said "It's a decent show but isn't Star Trek." Which is really fair I think. I posted the exact same thing on facebook and people were like "Oh my God, yes, I feel the exact same way!" And yes of course a lot of my friends are nerds, but what surprised me is that a lot of the people saying this to me aren't. One of my fraternity brothers has a job at CNN and has never played a video game in his life feels this way and I didn't know that he even liked Star Trek. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't feel too bad because you're not alone. And a lot of the people who feel this way are actually normies with kids and jobs and aren't basement dwellers. Also people can try and use the same excuses they used for Ghostbusters '16 and just calling anyone who doesn't like it a racist, sexist homophobic gamergater. But this time around it really isn't going to work because Star Trek has always been very progressive and diverse since the very beginning. I have not seen a single person complaining about anyone's race \ gender \ sexuality in this, period. I'm sure someone out there has because there's always that one guy, but it's uncommon enough that I haven't seen it. Like seriously dude, the people throwing around personal attacks and accusations are not fooling anyone. They can fling poo poo all they want, it's just going to bounce off. Edit: Also you know, people are allowed to like this. And they are also allowed to not like it. It's stupid to make personal judgements on people because of their taste in media. That is super, duper stupid. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 21:13
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Baronjutter posted:I don't know why people loving STD makes me kinda depressed. Like people are so thirsty for trek they convinced them selves it was good, or just have basically zero standards for writing or characters? Then they get super super defensive about it, yelling that only some pedo turbo nerd could hate such a fun flashy show, and obviously people just hate it because it's dark and edgy and and not dumb and boring and can't get over that 60's or 90's trek is dead. I'm gonna say that putting it on a scale where the low end is "The Cage"/"Encounter at Farpoint" and the high end is "The Emissary" and it doesn't hit THAT high point is a far step from loving it. That said, it's enough to earn a cautious optimism.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:13
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Now I'm sad that we got the terrible TNG movies that we did.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:15
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Peachfart posted:Now I'm sad that we got the terrible TNG movies that we did. That's like what a good tenth of this thread is even about.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:31
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The tone and visual style aren't my cup of tea but they're not deal breakers, if STD's writing/plots/characters improve I'm totally down watching it. I don't give a poo poo that the sets don't look like TOS -10 years, I understand they need to modernize things. Everything I hate about STD is purely that I strongly believe the writing is absolute poo poo and the directing is not getting good performances out of people. My wife did not grow up on Trek and only discovered DS9 recently. She thought TNG was "ok" and couldn't get through TOS so has no nostalgia or obsession with the lore/history/tech. She wanted to turn STD off about 2 min in because she could not believe how bad the dialog was. She was gasping and wide eyed in shock at the extremely unnatural heavy handed exposition and could not believe how bad the acting was in parts. Her background is all film/lit so she's way more picky and picks up on lovely dialog more than me who's used to watching lovely Canadian-filmed scifi. She didn't even want to watch the 2nd episode. "These women are awful, the dialog is atrocious, and I'm bored. No thanks."
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Sep 27, 2017 21:33
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As we both know, you've been my first officer for seven years. What would you do if you were stuck here? Well, since I am a xeno archaeologist, I would study the culture and try to join it. We are both in Starfleet. That's correct, we go on missions like this one.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:37
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I keep thinking about how weird it was that they only introduced about 6 characters in three intro and then immediately killed half of them.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:47
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I keep thinking about how weird it was that they only introduced about 6 characters in three intro and then immediately killed half of them.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:47
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That scene is really clumsy but Burnham rhapsodizing about the Klingon beacon is even worse. It's like they wanted to make her sound like this erudite intellectual who is moved to poetry by what she's seeing but the dialogue strikes completely the wrong tone and she completely no-sells it. It's even worse when you compare it to Spock's EVA monologue in TMP.
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Sep 27, 2017 21:48
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Gammatron 64 posted:Same. This... Actually would be awesome. 
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Sep 27, 2017 21:51
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Al Borland Corp. posted:As we both know, you've been my first officer for seven years. What would you do if you were stuck here? Even better, she said "xenoanthropologist" which I'm pretty sure is a self-contradictory word. edit: maybe less contradictory and more "not what they meant", since a straightforward translation would presumably be "study of strange humans" when they really meant "study of non-human cultures" Pham Nuwen fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 21:55
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Kibayasu posted:You even get to have Picard on the planet and Riker in orbit as originally planned, which is the only way Sisko would get to command the Enterprise. WORF: They're on the move again. The Borg just overrun three of our defense checkpoints. They've taken over decks five and six. They've adapted to every modulation on our weapons. SISKO: Find another way to modify our weapons, so they'll be more effective. In the meantime, tell your men to stand their ground. SECURITY OFFICER #2: Sir? SISKO: Fight hand-to-hand, if they have to. SECURITY OFFICER #2: Aye, sir. RIKER: Captain, our weapons are useless. We must activate the autodestruct sequence and use the escape pods to evacuate the ship. SISKO: No! CRUSHER: Captain Sisko, if we destroy the ship, we destroy the Borg. SISKO: We're going to stay and fight. RIKER: Sir, we have lost the Enterprise. We should not sacrifice... SISKO: We have not lost the Enterprise, Will. We are not going to lose the Enterprise. Not to the Borg. Not while I'm in command. You have your orders. RIKER: I must object to this course of action. SISKO: Your objection is noted. RIKER: With all due respect, sir, ...I believe you are allowing your personal experience with the Borg to influence your judgement. WORF: Sir, Commander Riker is right. SISKO: You're afraid. You want to destroy the ship and run away. You coward. CRUSHER (OC): Ben... WORF: If you were any other man I would kill you where you stand. RIKER: You son of a bitch. SISKO: This really isn't the time. RIKER: Everybody out there thinks that staying here and fighting the Borg is suicide. They're just afraid to come in here and say it. SISKO: None of them understand the Borg as I do. ...No one does. No one can. WORF: What is that supposed to mean? SISKO: I have work to do. CRUSHER: The Borg hurt you, and now you're going to hurt them back. I saw the look on your face when you shot those Borg on the holodeck. You were almost enjoying it! SISKO: How dare you! WORF: You're not the first man to get a thrill from murdering someone. SISKO: All of you, off the bridge! RIKER: Or what? You'll kill us, like you killed Ensign Lynch SISKO: There was no way to save him. CRUSHER: You didn't even try. SISKO: I don't have time for this. RIKER: We didn't mean to interrupt your little quest. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale. SISKO: What? This is not about revenge. WORF: Liar! SISKO: This is about saving the future of humanity. RIKER: Benjamin, blow up the drat ship! SISKO: No! ...No! No! ...I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again! The line must be drawn here, ...this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. RIKER: 'And he piled upon the whale's white hump, a sum of all the rage and hate felt by his own race. If his chest had been a cannon, he would have shot his heart upon it.' SISKO: What? RIKER: Ahab spent years hunting the white whale that crippled him. A quest for vengeance, ...but in the end it destroyed him and his ship. CRUSHER: I guess he didn't know when to quit. WORF: What do we do now? SISKO: Carry out my orders. Dyson. Kaplan. Start working on a way to modify the weapons systems. CRUSHER: Wait a minute! This is stupid. If we can get off the ship and blow it up, let's do it. RIKER: Once the Captain has made up his mind the discussion is over.
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Sep 27, 2017 22:02
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I keep thinking about how weird it was that they only introduced about 6 characters in three intro and then immediately killed half of them. The more I think about it the more the pilot feels like some network exec demanded they "make it like those movies that made a ton of money!" and that hopefully third episode will be more of a proper introduction to the show. I mean we still haven't seen most of the characters or the hero ship yet so there's still lots of stuff core to the show that's just not there so far For what it's worth all the other normies from work accosted me yesterday demanding to know why Star Trek was so dull and all I could do was shrug because yep, and the other nerds were just as unimpressed. Hey when does The Expanse come back?
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Sep 27, 2017 22:19
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Baronjutter posted:The tone and visual style aren't my cup of tea but they're not deal breakers, if STD's writing/plots/characters improve I'm totally down watching it. I don't give a poo poo that the sets don't look like TOS -10 years, I understand they need to modernize things. Everything I hate about STD is purely that I strongly believe the writing is absolute poo poo and the directing is not getting good performances out of people. My wife did not grow up on Trek and only discovered DS9 recently. She thought TNG was "ok" and couldn't get through TOS so has no nostalgia or obsession with the lore/history/tech. She wanted to turn STD off about 2 min in because she could not believe how bad the dialog was. She was gasping and wide eyed in shock at the extremely unnatural heavy handed exposition and could not believe how bad the acting was in parts. Her background is all film/lit so she's way more picky and picks up on lovely dialog more than me who's used to watching lovely Canadian-filmed scifi. She didn't even want to watch the 2nd episode. "These women are awful, the dialog is atrocious, and I'm bored. No thanks." uhhhh heh, well, actually, seeing as your ""wife"" was able to stomach that old garbage TNG made before the enlightened modern age of television, it's obvious that she's actually just a huge nerd whose opinions are intellectually bankrupt. enjoy your schlock made for dipshits, me and my many millions of fellow advanced viewers will be *sniff* savoring this program alongside other such ~~*~prestige~*~~ programmes as The Expanse and Westworld 
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Sep 27, 2017 22:20
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Al Borland Corp. posted:As we both know, you've been my first officer for seven years. What would you do if you were stuck here? (Edit - there are no spoilers here) "We come in peace, that's why we're here... isn't that the whole idea of Starfleet?" (like, what the gently caress were they discussing that led to that) "Hey, I taught you that!" "You don't trust me, Captain?" (like what, where does an issue of trust come from, that doesn't even follow) "I trust you with my life, Commander Burnham, but it doesn't change the fact that you're lost. Very lost." (so i guess she's trusting her to know the way for her, but those first two lines are *so* out of place if that's the case) "Technically we would be lost" (character trait established: pedantic little poo poo) "How long til that storm comes crashing down on us?" "I estimate 1 hour, 17 minutes, 22 seconds, which is why I made sure we're not lost. The map says the well's this way Captain" (character trait established: super-specific smug little prick. that's not an "estimate" and you know it, also how can a giant storm be said to reach a specific point to the very second, it's gonna get breezy and then gusty and then windy. Also what map, why is your captain not privy to this map, why have you not even got the map out) *some fluff about a native species and the prime directive that isn't completely terrible* "Storm's moving faster than I thought, she ship won't be able to pick up our signatures" (character trait supplemental: too smug and pedantic for own good) "Unless we contact Lieutenant Saru, we'll be trapped here until it's over" "Let's take a walk. follow my footsteps" "Why? Captain where are we going" "It's your turn to trust me now number 1" "But now we're really lost" (I THOUGHT YOU HAD A MAP) "we're far too small to be seen with the naked eye" (doesn't the ship have loving optical sensors? hell there's a telescope in your captain's loving office) "and you can't set a course without a star" (  ) "is it wise to be heading away from the village?""It's hard to imagine you've served under me for 7 years. I think it's time we talked about you having your own command" (how does this follow from the previous conversation except in the context of "I can't believe you don't trust me, why don't you get your own bloody ship and gently caress off off of mine since you've clearly learned nothing") Then some poo poo about the footprints. Scientific absurdities aside that is some awful dialogue in there, but luckily it does get a lot better (by setting such a low bar i guess) I still think the show is OK, btw, but I loving love mocking all the mis-steps which is why i did this post Microplastics fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 27, 2017 |
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Sep 27, 2017 22:23
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I know this is super nitpicky too but the sound and VFX for the phasers were weak as hell, absolutely no punch Remember when Kirk blasted that Klingon in one of the movies and he went loving flying like a meter into the air? Dude got loving launched! They need to be doing things like that instead of treating these things like generic guns.
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Sep 27, 2017 22:28
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Wheat Loaf posted:I have not watched this yet but from what I'm seeing here, it's sounding like it's the first 5-10 minutes of the first episode of DS9 with the Battle of Wolf-359 except as two episodes instead of 5-10 minutes. I think it's more like the BSG miniseries but shorter (also, I hated the miniseries so much I didn't give the show a shot for years). It does all the inciting incident stuff and ends on a "where will we go from here?" I don't think this was the best way to start either show, but it got me interested enough to try the series proper.
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Sep 27, 2017 22:40
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