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Fat Samurai posted:Having more than 47% of the votes before claiming to be representing all the catalans, for starters. Good news, they will have a lot more than that now.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:37
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Aumanor posted:Good news, they will have a lot more than that now. That was probably the point of it all along.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:39
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Aumanor posted:Good news, they will have a lot more than that now. Angry Lobster posted:That was probably the point of it all along.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:41
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I would think anyone who WANTS Catalan to remain part of Spain (Like Me) Should absolutely hate Rajoy and the Spanish Government for now almost ensuring that it will do everything in its power to declare Indendence and become independent; including war. Just like King George and the British Crown did everything they could to ensure the Colonialists declared independence due to their own hubris.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:42
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Angry Lobster posted:That was probably the point of it all along. Well, as far as promoting independence goes, I'd imagine a clear demonstration that the government is just a thinly veiled occupant that has no intention of respecting your right to self-determination is a pretty effective method. Aumanor fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 17:44
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Ormi posted:The provision against self-determination in the constitution is both illiberal and undemocratic itself. Certainly, most liberal democracies share the sentiment that territorial integrity is more important than these higher ideals, but they're also better at heading off secessionists before they get to this point and lay bare the contradiction for all to see. I don't think so. A region from a country gaining independence isn't a trivial thing, it shouldn't be that easy (but it shouldn't be impossible either). It *should* be an agreement between the country and the region to have it put to a vote, and it should require a pretty big majority to ever come to pass. This current situation + Brexit + Scottish referendum are perfect examples of why it shouldn't be that easy, because relatively brief moments of political discord can result in some pretty drastic and largely irreversible decisions.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:45
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:I would think anyone who WANTS Catalan to remain part of Spain (Like Me) Should absolutely hate Rajoy and the Spanish Government for now almost ensuring that it will do everything in its power to declare Indendence and become independent; including war. *France goes bankrupt* *Macron loses his head* *France conquers Europe*
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Oct 1, 2017 17:46
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Democracy doesn't mean you wipe your rear end with the Constitution of the country. hahahahahahaha holy poo poo I'll just let that post fester in its own putrid waste, but the broader point here is that Spain is obviously under no obligation to treat the referendum as anything but illegal, unbinding, and irrelevant, but there's no justification for sending in the cops to brain citizens with clubs if they try to vote on it. And by sending in the cops to brain citizens who are trying to vote on it the government has completely invalidated their position as the Good Guys Just Trying To Do It All Right By The Book, and they've made people worldwide sympathetic to Catalan independence regardless of the merits.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:46
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Pedro De Heredia posted:A region from a country gaining independence isn't a trivial thing, it shouldn't be that easy (but it shouldn't be impossible either). It *should* be an agreement between the country and the region to have it put to a vote, and it should require a pretty big majority to ever come to pass.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:48
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I'll just let that post fester in its own putrid waste, but the broader point here is that Spain is obviously under no obligation to treat the referendum as anything but illegal, unbinding, and irrelevant, but there's no justification for sending in the cops to brain citizens with clubs if they try to vote on it. And by sending in the cops to brain citizens who are trying to vote on it the government has completely invalidated their position as the Good Guys Just Trying To Do It All Right By The Book, and they've made people worldwide sympathetic to Catalan independence regardless of the merits. I agree with all of that. Obviously Rajoy is an incompetent idiot who has severely and dramatically mishandled this whole issue for years. I just think people are underrating legality and illegality here. People worldwide don't matter in terms of what happens with Catalan independence, what might matter is other governments worldwide, and they are not going to be siding clearly with Catalans or clearly against Rajoy when it comes to the question of independence itself, because of the dubiousness of the vote. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 17:52
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Irrelevant post sorry.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:54
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Dawncloack posted:Delors, Monti, Verhofstad, Reding and others have called for the United States of Europe. The idea has been there from the beginning, even if, admittedly, it's not maybe the idea of every single Brussels civil servant. To deny that it's one of the big motivations is disingenuous. Sorry for going back to this but this argument is almost literally the same as I hear from the cryptofascist populist right wing in the Netherlands and it annoys the hell out of me. Just because some people (and only a slight minority at that) dreamt or dream about a United States of Europe doesn't mean that it has an even remote chance of happening, because the actually existing European Union is structured in such a way that it is guaranteed not to happen. The European Commission is the servant (agent) of its principals the member states, and the member states smack the Commission the gently caress down every time it tries to become too independent or overbearing in its functioning. Delors is dead and buried and the EU is more likely to fall apart than become a superstate, and I rate the chances of a breakup at very low.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:56
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I agree with all of that. Obviously Rajoy is an incompetent idiot who has severely and dramatically mishandled this whole issue for years. He has managed to stay in power by completely ignoring every issue that has come up. I guess he thought he could do the same here until it reached the point of no return and then he completely messed it up.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:57
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:hahahahahahaha holy poo poo This is my take on it as well. Let them hold the symbolic vote under everyone's knowledge of its illegality. Let it fester in courts for years. If any hostile actions do come out of it, THEN send out the cops to bash skulls. This looks like a pretty classic case of overplaying one's hand.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:57
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Fat Samurai posted:Having more than 47% of the votes before claiming to be representing all the catalans, for starters. 
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Oct 1, 2017 18:05
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Freezer posted:This is my take on it as well. Let them hold the symbolic vote under everyone's knowledge of its illegality. Let it fester in courts for years. If any hostile actions do come out of it, THEN send out the cops to bash skulls. Hasn't Puigdemont pledged an immediate unilateral declaration of independence, following a successful vote (inevitable, once the opposition parties pledged to abstain) in this for-real-this-time referendum? A bit tricky to try to drag that down with judicial processes. A government in Madrid with plenty of political capital could 11-dimensional-chess this much more readily by promising its own centrally-approved referendum, then pouring resources into a No vote. Polling suggests a easy No win. Changing the wording or the date a little bit would readily split the pro-independence radicals. But perhaps Brexit has made such thinking unpalatable. And besides, the real problem with that is that Rajoy himself sits on a rickety minority government
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Oct 1, 2017 18:08
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Freezer posted:This is my take on it as well. Let them hold the symbolic vote under everyone's knowledge of its illegality. Let it fester in courts for years. If any hostile actions do come out of it, THEN send out the cops to bash skulls. This isn't really a much better option. It's what they've been doing for a long time, and it didn't do any good. The intention behind this wasn't to have a symbolic vote, it was to legitimately gain independence from Spain. That is what these people have been saying, that is they were ostensibly elected to do, that's what they have been gearing up to do. The vote wasn't just some demonstration. It wouldn't actually look any better for the Catalan government to literally declare independence after a vote only to have the Spanish army depose whoever did that and put him or her on trial. It would be less violent in that there'd be less blood, but it would be symbolically worse. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 18:10
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These polls encompass all the options, from 'legal referendum' to 'illegal referendum'.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:12
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Sorry for going back to this but this argument is almost literally the same as I hear from the cryptofascist populist right wing in the Netherlands and it annoys the hell out of me. Just because some people (and only a slight minority at that) dreamt or dream about a United States of Europe doesn't mean that it has an even remote chance of happening, because the actually existing European Union is structured in such a way that it is guaranteed not to happen. The European Commission is the servant (agent) of its principals the member states, and the member states smack the Commission the gently caress down every time it tries to become too independent or overbearing in its functioning. Delors is dead and buried and the EU is more likely to fall apart than become a superstate, and I rate the chances of a breakup at very low. I'm not an expert, but isn't it possible that state governments will gradually hand over more and more powers to the parliament? I mean, you can get to a federal state like Germany and the US through gradual evolution, without the states abolishing themselves at any point. The German states all have their own police forces and full autonomy in many areas like education. They still exist and command a lot of authority, just not in areas like defense or international relations.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:12
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ronya posted:A government in Madrid with plenty of political capital could 11-dimensional-chess this much more readily by promising its own centrally-approved referendum, then pouring resources into a No vote. Polling suggests a easy No win. But perhaps Brexit has made such thinking unpalatable. And besides, the real problem with that is that Rajoy himself sits on a rickety minority government That is what they should have done - organize the referendum themselves, set up a heavily funded No campaign (which would be completely understandable on their part), and make a few concessions with regards to Catalan autonomy (just fully reinstating the 2006 Statute of Autonomy would very likely be enough). It would have been a comfortable victory for No, just like in the UK. Instead, they chose repression and violence, ensuring Catalan independence in the long run. Any system that is based exclusively on repression will fall sooner or later.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:14
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Phlegmish posted:That is what they should have done - organize the referendum themselves, set up a heavily funded No campaign (which would be completely understandable on their part), and make a few concessions with regards to Catalan autonomy (just fully reinstating the 2006 Statute of Autonomy would very likely be enough). It would have been a comfortable victory for No, just like in the UK. Agreed. 49,6, sorry.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:16
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ronya posted:Hasn't Puigdemont pledged an immediate unilateral declaration of independence, following a successful vote (inevitable, once the opposition parties pledged to abstain) in this for-real-this-time referendum? A bit tricky to try to drag that down with judicial processes. Not just pledged, it's literally in the referendum law rammed through the Catalan Parlament that it has to come together within 48 hours after a Yes vote and declare independence. ronya posted:A government in Madrid with plenty of political capital could 11-dimensional-chess this much more readily by promising its own centrally-approved referendum, then pouring resources into a No vote. Polling suggests a easy No win. Changing the wording or the date a little bit would readily split the pro-independence radicals. But perhaps Brexit has made such thinking unpalatable. And besides, the real problem with that is that Rajoy himself sits on a rickety minority government I'm afraid it was very clear before today already that the Rajoy government wouldn't do anything sensible and so far, they're conforming perfectly to expectations.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:16
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Pedro De Heredia posted:These polls encompass all the options, from 'legal referendum' to 'illegal referendum'. The referendum is only 'illegal' because Castilian courts have decreed it. The point is that it's bullshit to claim that this is purely coming from the separatists. The vast majority of Catalans was in favor of a referendum regardless of their opinion on independence.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:18
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Phlegmish posted:That is what they should have done - organize the referendum themselves, set up a heavily funded No campaign (which would be completely understandable on their part), and make a few concessions with regards to Catalan autonomy (just fully reinstating the 2006 Statute of Autonomy would very likely be enough). It would have been a comfortable victory for No, just like in the UK. Yes, hence my remark about Brexit. The polling also said that Cameron would cruise to an easy Stay vote and that would shut his party flank up for a decade. But then... And Rajoy is in no position to promise concessions anyway, minority government and all.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:18
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ronya posted:Yes, hence my remark about Brexit. The polling also said that Cameron would cruise to an easy Stay vote and that would shut his party flank up for a decade. But then... Minority government and "gently caress the regions" being in its party DNA. Also, since you mention brexit, when everyone is done posting about Catalonia please read this article and be horrified at the state of our "democracies". https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy
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Oct 1, 2017 18:23
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Phlegmish posted:The referendum is only 'illegal' because Castilian courts have decreed it. The point is that it's bullshit to claim that this is purely coming from the separatists. The vast majority of Catalans was in favor of a referendum regardless of their opinion on independence. You are conflating two different things, which are 'Catalans' opinions on whether a referendum should be held' and 'Catalan votes for the current regional government'. What makes these two different is that a person who is in favor of a legal referendum is not necessarily in favor of an illegal one, and even a person in favor of an illegal one is not necessarily in favor of unilaterally declaring independence and seeking to secede from Spain (which would spark an international crisis if not a military invasion). I don't condone the army going to Calatonia and clubbing people, but saying you're going to secede from the country you're part of through some vote you organized that is not legally recognized by anyone except you is a serious deal. It's not a joke. A government that barely got a majority taking these actions is being extremely reckless. This is the kind of thing armies are for. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 18:23
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ronya posted:Yes, hence my remark about Brexit. The polling also said that Cameron would cruise to an easy Stay vote and that would shut his party flank up for a decade. But then... If that still ends up being the result, they should accept it. That's democracy. quote:And Rajoy is in no position to promise concessions anyway, minority government and all. Forget concessions, it would have been enough to stop loving with already existing statutes. That's what caused this whole crisis back in 2010.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:"Pretty big majority"? Like, what, needing 2/3 to be in favor before the referendum is valid? Do you think they should be able to secede if 49.9% are against it?
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Oct 1, 2017 18:25
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Phlegmish posted:Forget concessions, it would have been enough to stop loving with already existing statutes. That's what caused this whole crisis back in 2010.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:26
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Why the gently caress do nation states even still exist in 2017?
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Oct 1, 2017 18:26
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Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? like what do people hope to gain that they cant get from being part of a large democratic spain? It would make much more sense if Spain was still under Franco so this could be a referendum for freedom but it's not really the case in this instance. I'm not making any value judgements on the catalonians, I'm just wondering what they hope to gain from this stunt.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:28
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Al-Saqr posted:Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? like what do people hope to gain that they cant get from being part of a large democratic spain? It would make much more sense if Spain was still under Franco so this could be a referendum for freedom but it's not really the case in this instance. Far from me to compare Spain to where you live, but when the Executive has control over the judiciary to the point when they can have the creation of a political police not investigated, a street protest law identical to Russia's not declared unconstitutional, and they can tell the TV to not discuss just how many people were committing suicide because of evictions, and when that same executive only stops at installing a friendly prosecutor general because every single prosecutor threatens to resign, when they are on the record destroying incriminating evidence against them and nothing comes out of that, and a long etc. you gotta start asking questions about the quality of that democracy.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:32
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Dawncloack posted:Far from me to compare Spain to where you live, but when the Executive has control over the judiciary to the point when they can have the creation of a political police not investigated, a street protest law identical to Russia's not declared unconstitutional, and they can tell the TV to not discuss just how many people were committing suicide because of evictions, and when that same executive only stops at installing a friendly prosecutor general because every single prosecutor threatens to resign, when they are on the record destroying incriminating evidence against them and nothing comes out of that, and a long etc. you gotta start asking questions about the quality of that democracy. ah ok that makes sense then. that sounds pretty bad.I guess the referendum could work as a wake up call for the central government to take their issues actually seriously and not screw around and stop protecting injustice.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:35
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I'm not an expert, but isn't it possible that state governments will gradually hand over more and more powers to the parliament? I mean, you can get to a federal state like Germany and the US through gradual evolution, without the states abolishing themselves at any point. The German states all have their own police forces and full autonomy in many areas like education. They still exist and command a lot of authority, just not in areas like defense or international relations. There are certainly areas where states have delegated powers to the EU, though even there the power transfers are usually conditional and tightly circumscribed; also, some powers have been delegated downwards through devolution and decentralisation, either to territorial bodies or quasi-autonomous organizations representing industries being granted powers to self-regulate (EU integration theory calls this "multi-level governance"). The essentials of what makes a state though? Not so much. The EU Treaty specifies exactly where the EU has competences to regulate and though those powers can be stretched a bit, particularly in the bailout countries, that only goes so far. Nothing in the EU Treaties gives it the power to abolish national anthems or take over command of armies, because the voters don't want it, so the elected governments don't want it, so the EU institutions remain perfectly powerless there. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Oct 1, 2017 18:35
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Al-Saqr posted:Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? like what do people hope to gain that they cant get from being part of a large democratic spain? It would make much more sense if Spain was still under Franco so this could be a referendum for freedom but it's not really the case in this instance. Because, much like with Brexit and Scottish independence, 'independence' becomes a catch-all solution to a series of political and economic problems that the political establishment has been unable to (or uninterested) in solving.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:35
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Al-Saqr posted:Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? like what do people hope to gain that they cant get from being part of a large democratic spain? It would make much more sense if Spain was still under Franco so this could be a referendum for freedom but it's not really the case in this instance. There's definitely some hyperbole being thrown around given the relatively low stakes involved, but the national government really does seem to institute policies in a way that fucks over (for instance) Barcelona to the benefit of Madrid. There's also an underlying FYGM sentiment among some separatists though, who don't want to be burdened with poorer parts of the country anymore. Obviously the crackdown is angering people too, but that doesn't really explain why it was such an urgent issue before the crackdown. The best case scenario would have been a negotiated solution that saw the country's finances being used more appropriately, but hardliners on both sides aren't looking for negotiated solutions.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:38
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Al-Saqr posted:Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? like what do people hope to gain that they cant get from being part of a large democratic spain? It would make much more sense if Spain was still under Franco so this could be a referendum for freedom but it's not really the case in this instance. Again, this whole crisis was ultimately sparked off by Spanish courts arbitrarily reversing most of the 2006 Statute of Autonomy back in 2010. There is the feeling among many Catalans that Madrid can undermine Catalan autonomy and the Catalan language at a whim, and that independence is the only way to safeguard these. Up until about a month ago I would have agreed with you about Spain respecting human rights, but that's clearly out the window now, especially considering today's events. Here is a woman who was sexually assaulted and had her fingers broken one by one by the national police: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171001/431704301221/marta-torrejillas-dedos-tetas-policia-nacional-referendum-1-o.html Spain is once more in a dark place right now.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:39
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Al-Saqr posted:Is it controversial to say that if you live in a democracy like Spain where your human rights are largely guaranteed then holding a seperatist referendum is really pointless and dumb? It depends. In my opinion, until like 80% of the population votes out, there's possibly a better way to go about the issues you have with your situation. If people wanna shoot themselves in the foot, they have every right to though 
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Oct 1, 2017 18:40
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Truga posted:If people wanna shoot themselves in the foot, they have every right to though They don't actually have that right in this case.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:40
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Sinteres posted:There's definitely some hyperbole being thrown around given the relatively low stakes involved, but the national government really does seem to institute policies in a way that fucks over (for instance) Barcelona to the benefit of Madrid. There's also an underlying FYGM sentiment among some separatists though, who don't want to be burdened with poorer parts of the country anymore. Obviously the crackdown is angering people too, but that doesn't really explain why it was such an urgent issue before the crackdown. The best case scenario would have been a negotiated solution that saw the country's finances being used more appropriately, but hardliners on both sides aren't looking for negotiated solutions. It has always been about money, no matter how we sugar coat it, that's the real problem.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:42
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