|
https://twitter.com/VilaWeb/status/914526735072399360 well this worked out well
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 23:24 |
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:*according to Catalan sources 'Catalan'. That's a very interesting choice of words. I like the implicit admission that this is a case of a central government using repression against an entire people and not just 'separatists'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:43
|
|
|
Truga posted:It doubt anyone would notice any difference in their daily lives inside the schengen area. You'd just get less "welcome to county x" and more "welcome to country x" signposts on the autobahn. I dunno. Elections? Laws? Regulations? Taxes?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:44
|
|
|
The Catalan government has just announced a general strike the next 3th of October.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
skipThings posted:https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616 gently caress gently caress gently caress FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK Are these people loving EVERYWHERE? Is everyone who is different anywhere going to be rounded up? What the gently caress is HAPPENING to the world? gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
AceOfFlames posted:gently caress gently caress gently caress FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK What's happening to the world? Much the same as ever. This is nothing new, every prolonged period of peace ends up with idiots who want a war because they don't know what war is, because they're illiterate and don't really think history has anything to offer to them. The new thing is that the majority goes "hope those idiots shut the hell up" instead of falling in line. Now, in order to get to power, they need Quislings who are too dumb to spot that yes, the fire will eat you too, and no longer can just seize regions through having nobody willing to fight them. If they got their wish and the state wasn't there to protect them, they'd be losing, which is also new. Humanity just kinda sucks, and it always has. These same problems brought down the Roman Empire.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
^^ Don't forget prolonged periods of economic malaise. And here we can establish a funny parallel: the elites want to destroy the welfare state because that's what they do, pure greed. The real idiots are the low to mid class that vote for that destruction or cheer it, they simply have never lived without it and don't know the (personal and/or societal) consequences.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:Exact numbers don't really matter that much at this point, we can all agreed that a lot of people got hurt today. Here you're assuming that GC considers southern europeans to be people, which is a bad bet to make.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:16
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Can you elaborate what a state based on only "people" would mean exactly? How it would work? What it would mean in the daily life of an average Joe or Jane? The abandonment of states based on defined historical or pseudohistorical nations and instead resting a vague sense of an undifferentiated "people"?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
This feels like the start of a week where decades happen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
ThePariah posted:This feels like the start of a week where decades happen. Oh I so agree Wait until the 25th of October, when the Chinese premier is secure in his power and can stop pretending everything's peachy with the Chinese financial system. That's when the fireworks start.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AP/status/914589308123779072
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:47
|
|
|
fishmech posted:The abandonment of states based on defined historical or pseudohistorical nations and instead resting a vague sense of an undifferentiated "people"?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:^^ Don't forget prolonged periods of economic malaise. Caused by the rich hoarding wealth like especially stupid dragons and failing to pay the upkeep of the society all their wealth depends on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:52
|
|
|
Puigdemont:quote:That is why today, with this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to have an independent State that is constituted in the form of a republic. Consequently, the Government that I am presiding will transfer the results of today's day in order to act in accordance with the provisions of the Referendum Law in the next few days in the Parliament of Catalonia, which is the expression and expression of the sovereignty of our people. yeah rip
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
So what now, then? I'm genuinely asking, this is all nuts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Secession only works if the seceding area has the military strength to at least draw even with the state it's seceding from. In the case of Catalan where they don't have that military strength, but are economically useful to the rest of Spain, the best way to achieve independence is Ghandi-style civil disobedience. Catalans should intentionally lower their own economy and demand independence/autonomy. The rest of Spain will realize it's better to have an economically strong and independent Catalan to trade with rather than a poor dependent Catalan. This could backfire if there is actual ethnic hatred between the Catalans and Spaniards, which would have resulted in an ethnic cleansing of the Catalans in pre-modern times, but the EU would step in nowadays if the Spaniards attempted to do that today.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Interesting times, indeed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Canada is similar, except it's "native" minority white culture was far too ingrained for it to destroy. Canada is trying to get there, at least. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/06/29/who-gets-to-decide-canadas-identity/ e: Teddybear posted:So what now, then? Chances are pretty good that we never find out. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/914497947517227008 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/914565910798782465
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
safely sodomized posted:https://twitter.com/VilaWeb/status/914526735072399360 It's almost as if they didn't realize the power to rule come from the people. Spain is going to lose Catalonia now. There is no way they don't. Their only option to prevent this would be an armed occupation which is probably against every European convention written in the EU Constitution. None of the European states want to admit it due to the political consequences involving their separatist movements, but this is the only natural result that can occur. Spain will try to remove all the politicians in Barcelona. They will disable anyone who supports the referendum for standing for election. The locals will boycott the elections and delegitimize them. There will be national strikes. Spain will try and remove funding from local police units that defend the people. As a result, local Catalans will cease paying taxes to Spain itself and will instead pay it to local organizations who fund those police units. The Spanish government can try to arrest as many of these local organizations and governments and police units but they are only going to risk further protests and people taking up arms themselves. This kind of poo poo has played out a thousand times before in the past and there are only two options here. Either Spain ceases to be a Democracy and the Central Spanish Government occupies Catalonia or Catalonia obtains some level of independence. Mind you either result is not the best for Catolonia. Catalonia as a indepent state will be much weaker than Catalonia as part of Spain. But it is the result that Rajoy and the PP have forced on the Catalonian People with their response and slow ever creep towards fascism. Just as Rajoy and the leaders of Spain are responsible for the rise of Podemos.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:14
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:This kind of poo poo has played out a thousand times before in the past and there are only two options here. Either Spain ceases to be a Democracy and the Central Spanish Government occupies Catalonia or Catalonia obtains some level of independence. imo most likely catalonia gets some sort of deal where they remain officially part of spain but with significantly expanded local autonomy people overestimate how likely independence is going to occur without consent of the central government: there's a lot of tools they could use short of violence to pressure a catalonian regional government which wants outright independence
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
Typo posted:imo most likely catalonia gets some sort of deal where they remain officially part of spain but with significantly expanded local autonomy Do you honestly believe that the Spanish government led by Rajoy is capable of doing so in an effective, subtle way, without relying on violence?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:20
|
|
|
Moderately serious and completely absurd question Spain can clearly invoke article 4 of the NATO treaty which requires consultation only if they feel their territorial integrity is threatened, but can article 5 (triggering a military response) be invoked against an internal "rebellion"?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Teddybear posted:So what now, then? Nobody knows. Maybe Spain abolishes Catalan regional autonomy and tries to govern directly from Madrid, presumably being sabotaged every step of the way. Maybe the Catalan regional government gets to declare independence, and then there's a run on the banks before everyone's finished celebrating, while investment in Catalonia craters, employment falls, and people realise they've robbed themselves, maybe the government in Madrid and Barcelona agree an amicable divorce while the EU immediately lets in the Catalans as a valued member (in this outcome, everyone also receives a pony). Stock markets in Spain definitely take a hit and its government debt suddenly starts to look shaky too, perhaps triggering a euro debt crisis rerun. PP diehards might want to send in the army but Spain probably isn't that kind of state anymore so they end up seeing no alternative but to let Catalonia go. However, they decide to block Catalan EU membership instead, severely hurting most of its industries other than tourism, and make both themselves and the Catalans poorer in the process. Or the separatists decide that they have played chicken long enough and back down before declaring independence, and probably get massacred at the next polls for wasting everyone's time. There is basically no plausible outcome that isn't nuts in some way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Mukaikubo posted:Moderately serious and completely absurd question take this tom clancy poo poo out of here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:27
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Grisaccia/status/914517312371400707 https://twitter.com/olafnieman/status/914554807754555392 Firefighters are attempting to protect the protesters them the riot police and are getting beaten.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
OhFunny posted:
The top tweet says that the separatists are using pictures from a few years back against the police, and that you shouldn't believe everything that you see (in one of the pictures being sent round, the firemen are on strike and are getting beaten up by the Catalan riot police (nt sure it's this one)). Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
Mukaikubo posted:Moderately serious and completely absurd question
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
Pluskut Tukker posted:The top tweet says that the separatists are using pictures from a few years back against the police, and that you shouldn't believe everything that you see (in one of the pictures being sent round, the firemen are on strike and are getting beaten up by the Catalan riot police (nt sure it's this one)). This seems to be true. Disappointing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:America is a white (Anglo)-nation state masquerading as a multi-cultural state, by allowing minor concessions to smaller white ethnicities while it absorbs them into the collective. Note that this only extends to unthreatening white ethnicities, and that for example the Germans had to be more forcibly integrated to ensure Anglo dominance. Non-white ethnicities of course just get left out in the cold entirely, and are definitely not part of an "undifferentiated people". Canada is similar, except it's "native" minority white culture was far too ingrained for it to destroy. This. Americans generally have a very confused notion of their own ethnicity. I mean it should be obvious the old cliche about "America being a nation of immigrants" isn't referring to native Americans or African Americans. The continued conflation of ethnicity in America with pseudo-scientific conceptions of biology doesn't help to clear the waters
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
What kind of wrench would this throw in the whole ordeal if Trump in all his stupidity tweeted support for the Catalonians Indepence?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:42
|
|
|
ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:What kind of wrench would this throw in the whole ordeal if Trump in all his stupidity tweeted support for the Catalonians Indepence? If he tweeted, and his uniformed minders won't let him, no one would pay attention, I think. Someone mentioned possible scenarios and one of them was a bank run. I'd like to mention that even in the worst case scenario (for Madrid), Spain would be well served defending the interests of Catalan banks. Think about this: every single Catalan government bond says "backed by the king of Spain" or sth like that. Cataluņa cannot default without Spain following suit. It's like a financial explosive belt.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:America is a white (Anglo)-nation state masquerading as a multi-cultural state, by allowing minor concessions to smaller white ethnicities while it absorbs them into the collective. Note that this only extends to unthreatening white ethnicities, and that for example the Germans had to be more forcibly integrated to ensure Anglo dominance. Non-white ethnicities of course just get left out in the cold entirely, and are definitely not part of an "undifferentiated people". Canada is similar, except it's "native" minority white culture was far too ingrained for it to destroy. Yeah, that's the joke.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
Catalonia accounts for something like 19% of the Spanish GDP but also accounts for 15-20% of the national public debt. So, if separation were to actually happen, in what way would this not explode the sovereign debt crisis and turbofuck the entire EU? Edit: to be clear, Catalonia regional debt is already rated as junk, which would obviously not improve following separation, at least not initially. Either Catalonia defaults on it's debt to Spain, which would trigger a Spanish default; or Spain automatically assumes Catalonia's debt (lol) which would probably also trigger a Spanish default due to a sudden ~20% increase in debt coupled with ~20% shrink in economy and revenue. Morbus fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
There is no debt crisis. Only neoliberals who obsess about national debt.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
Angry Lobster posted:Do you honestly believe that the Spanish government led by Rajoy is capable of doing so in an effective, subtle way, without relying on violence? ok, that's true, madrid's response has already backfired badly so I guess it's possible they are too incompetent to diffuse the situation
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
Lord of the Llamas posted:There is no debt crisis. Only neoliberals who obsess about national debt. kthx that clears things up good 2 know
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:03
|
|
|
Morbus posted:Catalonia accounts for something like 19% of the Spanish GDP but also accounts for 15-20% of the national public debt. So, if separation were to actually happen, in what way would this not explode the sovereign debt crisis and turbofuck the entire EU? I looked it up and currently, the Spanish government is currently still uaranteeing the debt payments of the Catalan regional administration. However, they will likely only do so for as long as they are also collecting tax payments from Catalonia. If that guarantee is withdrawn, austerity in Catalonia is sure to be on the menu. And indeed, the ability of Spain to repay its debts will certainly be put under question by the financial markets. Pluskut Tukker fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Oct 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:08
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AP/status/914557926408359937
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 23:24 |
|
|
I'm reading something about 2.262.424 ballots on La Vanguardia. If that's true it could be a problem for the required turnout threshold, whatever it is. Still an amazing number considering all the effort Madrid went through to shut everything down.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 23:39
|
|