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Karloff posted:That's not the claim I was arguing... you've moved the goalposts. Okay, I'll concede that the phrasing was ambiguous, if you assume that everyone that isn't you is a moron. The implication, which should have been pretty loving clear from context, was that 'building lean muscle as Robert Downey Jr, the subject of discussion has done, has a very small window in which you can do it naturally.' LORD OF BOOTY posted:Most importantly, what the gently caress does any of this have to do with comic book movies, take it to YLLS or the TCC roid thread Robert Downey Jr was in several comic book movies. You probably heard of a couple of them.
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Oct 3, 2017 05:57
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Natural Born Killers is better than any marvel movie
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Oct 3, 2017 05:59
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got any sevens posted:Natural Born Killers is better than any marvel movie So very true. It's a deleted scene, but Ashley Judd's scene in the courtroom is probably the best thing Stone filmed.
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Oct 3, 2017 06:01
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All that muscle talk and still no explanation how the Avengers are not fascist.
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Oct 3, 2017 06:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:All that muscle talk and still no explanation how the Avengers are not fascist. They are. They are explicitly facist. They're certainly villains. Especially as of Spiderman Homecoming's opening.
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Oct 3, 2017 07:12
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Pretty sure you can build muscle at pretty much any age? There's a reason physical therapy for the elderly exists, to reverse the effects of muscle atrophy. How MUCH muscle you can build and how effectively is another question.
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Oct 3, 2017 07:41
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Inescapable Duck posted:Pretty sure you can build muscle at pretty much any age? There's a reason physical therapy for the elderly exists, to reverse the effects of muscle atrophy. Thanks for confirming that the whole discussion wasn't a different discussion. Very insightful.
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Oct 3, 2017 12:41
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I wish the roid goons would shut the gently caress up about thier HGH guts or whatever. This is a serious thread about me grappling each other in sexy tights.
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Oct 3, 2017 13:27
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got any sevens posted:Natural Born Killers is better than any marvel movie I would go so far as to say that Natural Born Killers is a comic book movie. Snowman_McK posted:They are. They are explicitly facist. They're certainly villains. Especially as of Spiderman Homecoming's opening. They're a corporate superhero team, they're openly fascistic. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 15:04
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I mean the first movie has a scene where the billionaire flies into an active warzone (?) and just starts killing people with his shiny new toy. The only reason the villain is worse than him is that he wants to give other wealthy people and organizations the same capability.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:34
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Serf posted:I mean the first movie has a scene where the billionaire flies into an active warzone (?) and just starts killing people with his shiny new toy. The only reason the villain is worse than him is that he wants to give other wealthy people and organizations the same capability. To be fair, a tv news reporter dramatically asked "Who will do something about this?" He really had no choice
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Oct 3, 2017 15:36
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Man Iron-Man 2 was sooooo close to nailing how absurd and bad Ironman is as an intervention method. Then nope totally undercut.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:46
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Dexo posted:Man Iron-Man 2 was sooooo close to nailing how absurd and bad Ironman is as an intervention method. Civil War also tried to make this point only to gently caress it up sorta. Like in Ultron they make a huge deal about saving people as a priority, with scenes of evacuations and rescues and all that stuff. Then in Civil War we see the results of them not being good enough at their jobs. But then it sets up our only choices as state-sponsored superhuman international intervention or vigilante justice beholden to one old man's conscience. Like they really were trying to drive home how hosed the Sokovia incident was, but it falls flat when they carry on doing the same poo poo.
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Oct 3, 2017 15:50
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Serf posted:Civil War also tried to make this point only to gently caress it up sorta. Like in Ultron they make a huge deal about saving people as a priority, with scenes of evacuations and rescues and all that stuff. Then in Civil War we see the results of them not being good enough at their jobs. But then it sets up our only choices as state-sponsored superhuman international intervention or vigilante justice beholden to one old man's conscience. Like they really were trying to drive home how hosed the Sokovia incident was, but it falls flat when they carry on doing the same poo poo. They also made it super clear that Tony wasn't even going to follow the Accords *HIMSELF* The very instant he had any reason to go against them and subvert them, he did. Without a second thought. Because HE'S not the problem, everyone else is. They just need to listen to him better!
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Oct 3, 2017 16:17
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Burkion posted:They also made it super clear that Tony wasn't even going to follow the Accords *HIMSELF* You're talking like its something that wasn't supposed to be implied by the film. If he had held stronger to his professed position, or been able to see the wider angle of the consequences of his actions, like the Black Panther, then he wouldn't have ruined his friendship (however temporary) with Cap or been defeated like how a villain would be defeated in any other comic book movie. Also man gymrats are the most annoying nerds.
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Oct 3, 2017 18:25
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Shageletic posted:You're talking like its something that wasn't supposed to be implied by the film. If he had held stronger to his professed position, or been able to see the wider angle of the consequences of his actions, like the Black Panther, then he wouldn't have ruined his friendship (however temporary) with Cap or been defeated like how a villain would be defeated in any other comic book movie. No, see, the problem with the movie is that it implicitly FORGIVES HIM FOR THIS. He doesn't seek Cap's forgiveness or try to change anything he acts like a selfish villainous rear end in a top hat the entire movie, and at the end of the movie Cap goes "We still BFFs" without literally any effort on Tony's part That's the hosed part
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Oct 3, 2017 18:35
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He was portrayed as a vain and imperious man with severe weaknesses and phobias. I wasn't calling him a villain, only that his defeat mimicked the defeat of one. His actions weren't the only mistakes made by characters in the movie. Captain America's need to go it alone, to flout everyone and every institution, for what he deems is right is also a severe character flaw organically created over the course of his movies. They both done hosed up, and Cap's letter to set it all aside for the good of the planet or against another threat was a nicely adult way to go about it, I think.
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Oct 3, 2017 19:06
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Captain America's need to go it alone for what he deems right is probably his greatest strength. And he's usually right or mostly right every time he does, he's the hero of these stories after all: - he was right to apprehend Bucky himself since the guy was a mental case and the authorities were trying to kill him on sight (even tho he was framed for the bombing) - he wasn't wrong to refrain from signing after Tony revealed that he was already flaunting the ill-defined and subject-to-change rules himself and making unilateral decisions about the team like imprisoning SW - probably the most wrong he was was when he and Falcon took Bucky themselves, but at that point he knew the UN task force had a mole which already compromised them, and that they were acting in extremely bad faith rushing into poor tactical decisions like the aforementioned attempting to kill a suspect on sight - he was right to not let Tony kill Bucky because wtf That's not even getting into Winter Soldier where the entire plot was that he was disobeying the orders of S.H.I.E.L.D. that turned out to actually be Hydra anyway lol
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Oct 3, 2017 19:34
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The problem is that he's so full of himself he still thinks he knows better than anyone else when and how to intervene in situations. He doesn't want to be beholden to anyone but his own principles because "the safest hands are still his own". He's perfectly fine with violating other countries sovereignty when it suits him. He's just as deluded as Stark, just in his own way. So yeah, he's a fascist, he just happens to drape himself in a flag instead of a suit of armor.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:04
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McCloud posted:The problem is that he's so full of himself he still thinks he knows better than anyone else when and how to intervene in situations. He doesn't want to be beholden to anyone but his own principles because "the safest hands are still his own". He's perfectly fine with violating other countries sovereignty when it suits him. He's just as deluded as Stark, just in his own way. "Just as deluded" is such blatant false equivalence though. The concerns he brings up are valid: "what if there's someplace we need to go and they don't let us" etc. Tony is openly flippant about the accords because he knows they won't constrain him anyway. He openly says they'll just change them later if they need to. Cap actually cares about what he's signing and the consequences, he may not be 100% right but he is at least showing integrity in his decision. quote:So yeah, he's a fascist, he just happens to drape himself in a flag instead of a suit of armor. This is just wrong though. You can ding him for not wanting to obey rules or solving his problems with violence, but he does not exhibit any fascist beliefs. Maybe shades corporatism or libertarianism or whatever else people have said previously in the thread, but fascism is it's own distinct ideology, and if anything refusing to become tools of the government puts him squarely outside those tenets.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:25
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Guy A. Person posted:"Just as deluded" is such blatant false equivalence though. The concerns he brings up are valid: "what if there's someplace we need to go and they don't let us" etc. Tony is openly flippant about the accords because he knows they won't constrain him anyway. He openly says they'll just change them later if they need to. Cap actually cares about what he's signing and the consequences, he may not be 100% right but he is at least showing integrity in his decision. Tony cares about what he's signing and the consequences. He just has a more accurate picture of what those consequences are. As a CEO used to working the military, Congress, the media, etc. he knows that the consequences can be managed. Cap's fundamentally a rube who doesn't understand that the Accords are about the Avengers capturing the UN, not the UN restraining the Avengers.
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Oct 3, 2017 20:40
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McCloud posted:
Captain America, the guy who helped defeat the Nazis and dismantled a fascist government organization bent out n ruling the world... is fascist? Please tell me more, the mental gymnastics required to make this work are astounding.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:02
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Rough Lobster posted:Captain America, the guy who helped defeat the Nazis and dismantled a fascist government organization bent out n ruling the world... is fascist? Please tell me more, the mental gymnastics required to make this work are astounding. He's just Tony Stark's employee.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:03
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The problem with the Sokovia Accords, as presented in the movie, is that almost none of the incidents depicted are the Avengers' fault. Hell, most of them would have happened either way, and been much, much worse tragedies without the Avengers' intervention. making GBS threads on them for Ultron is a fair point, but the Battle of New York (for example) would have happened with or without them, and they're why it was localized to New York instead of being a nation-wide issue. It sort of comes off as the UN being ungrateful assholes, which... isn't really a great angle to take when writing people with the opinion "hey uh maybe these superpowered dudes need some oversight." e: before anyone yells at me here, I am not defending the Avengers as characters and, had it been written a little differently (maybe with different reasoning) I would be totally okay with the whole plot point. It's just written kind of stupidly in the film as it exists.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:04
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I'd say there's a difference between Joe Blow who violates a country's sovereignty and Captain America doing the same thing. The difference being, I trust Captain America to do such a thing for the right reason. What is the right reason? That's not something I need to worry about because Captain America is in charge of making that decision and he is trustworthy and not vulnerable to corruption. As shown multiple times, Stark is fairly easily manipulated and vulnerable to corruption. As shown multiple times, Cap is not easily manipulated EXCEPT when it comes to Bucky.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:06
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Cap alone can fix it.LORD OF BOOTY posted:The problem with the Sokovia Accords, as presented in the movie, is that almost none of the incidents depicted are the Avengers' fault. Hell, most of them would have happened either way, and been much, much worse tragedies without the Avengers' intervention. making GBS threads on them for Ultron is a fair point, but the Battle of New York (for example) would have happened with or without them, and they're why it was localized to New York instead of being a nation-wide issue. This is because the Sokovia Accords are Black Panther's manipulations of the UN in order to get revenge on Bucky. The disaster footage is a bad-faith argument by Ross, who's been itching to get the Hulk under control for near a decade, as part of an elaborate political enterprise being driven by one angry monarch. The UN coming off as a joke is consistent with the general Iron Man view of the government.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:13
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Sir Kodiak posted:This is because the Sokovia Accords are Black Panther's manipulations of the UN in order to get revenge on Bucky. Except Black Panther's dad was killed at the conference where they were going to ratify the Accords, which is what prompts him to seek revenge on Bucky.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:18
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Guy A. Person posted:"Just as deluded" is such blatant false equivalence though. The concerns he brings up are valid: "what if there's someplace we need to go and they don't let us" etc. Tony is openly flippant about the accords because he knows they won't constrain him anyway. He openly says they'll just change them later if they need to. Cap actually cares about what he's signing and the consequences, he may not be 100% right but he is at least showing integrity in his decision. The concerns are valid, but his conclusion is not. The answer to "what if a sovereign nation doesn't want us here" isn't "let's ignore their laws and rules and do whatever the gently caress we want, because we know best". He may have principles, but again, those principles are still "We do what we want because we know best". If you want to argue that his intent matters that's fine, but there have been tons of monsters in history who thought they where doing what they thought was right, and caps way of thinking is dangerously deluded, what else do you call it when someone believes they will always make the right choice, 100% of the time? Guy A. Person posted:This is just wrong though. You can ding him for not wanting to obey rules or solving his problems with violence, but he does not exhibit any fascist beliefs. Maybe shades corporatism or libertarianism or whatever else people have said previously in the thread, but fascism is it's own distinct ideology, and if anything refusing to become tools of the government puts him squarely outside those tenets. Objection sustained, hyperbole withdrawn.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:23
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McCloud posted:The answer to "what if a sovereign nation doesn't want us here" isn't "let's ignore their laws and rules and do whatever the gently caress we want, because we know best". Actually, on second thought, this actually is exactly what the physical embodiment of America would say and do, but still
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Oct 3, 2017 21:26
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If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody"
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Oct 3, 2017 21:34
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" 
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Oct 3, 2017 21:37
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" The Thing.
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Oct 3, 2017 21:39
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" You seem only to be able to perceive justice from a right-wing vantage point. The point is that Captain America doesn't give a poo poo whether you trust him or not. He's not engaging the public in any political discourse while waging private wars. Who holds him accountable?
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Oct 3, 2017 21:54
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I still have zero idea what to make of the political disagreement in Civil War. On the one hand like, yeah of course Captain America is right to not want to be beholden to some international cabal ordering him into Iraq or whatever. On the other hand, it's totally bad to have the equivalent of a handful of tactical nukes in private hands. This doesn't feel like a real moral/political dilemma though, because in real life people aren't tactical nukes, so it ends up feeling all kind of vague and nonsensical. Or maybe it's secretly an argument for pacifism/disarmament? The very existence of Captain America certainly isn't called into question by the movie itself though.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:03
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Civil War seems less like a real world allegory and more like just the natural development of the created fictional world.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:06
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" The Punisher. He's the most honest.
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Oct 3, 2017 22:07
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" Reminder: This was a guy who said "Sometimes a soldier should just follow orders" when Stark questioned Shield
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Oct 3, 2017 22:10
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civil war is the product you get when you make a story explicitly about politics but want to avoid any possible stance that could impact revenue so a story about justified force and culpability is actually just about tony stark's feelings
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Oct 3, 2017 22:13
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:If you can't trust Captain America, who has repeatedly shown to be of impeccable moral character, who can you trust? I feel like the only acceptable answer to that question would have to be "absolutely nobody" Tell me, what actually makes Captain America a person of "impeccable moral character" in the Marvel movies?
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Oct 3, 2017 22:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Tell me, what actually makes Captain America a person of "impeccable moral character" in the Marvel movies? He's usually right due to his unerring moral compass and his actions have led to the savings of countless innocent lives while thwarting evil at every turn, often at great personal sacrifice. E: sources: All Captain America and Avengers movies Rough Lobster fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 22:18
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