|
Sarrisan posted:I never played WoW, but aggro isnt something you really need to pay attention to once you learn the gist of how it works. you certainly do need to pay attention to it if you're trying to min/max. Aggro management is a thing you have to look at constantly while doing savage fights. As for the diff between wow and ffxiv. I tank both at high end levels (on o4s in ffxiv as a pld and working on desolate host mythic as a druid tank). Like wow a tanks dps rotation is brain dead to do good dps(pld at least). The difference between the two though is you have a bit more cool downs to watch for in ffxiv and wanting to go full dps mode means you might lose aggro possibly where as in wow that will never happen. Also you don't have boss mods telling you what to do for all the mechanics in ffxiv, so if you have a good memory it will be easy as everything is timed and happens in the same order every time. I would say tanking in this game is a bit easier outside of min/maxing your dps/threat balance which is the only complicated part. In wow you have to move bosses quite a bit and pick up adds occasionally which adds to the complexity a bit. Also you could be murdered pretty quick in wow, where as ffxiv it takes a bit. Holyshoot fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 4, 2017 |
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:30 |
|
|
A major difference between tanking in WoW and tanking in FFXIV is that the whole "active mitigation" thing that WoW has going is nearly completely absent in FFXIV - your main rotation is for holding threat and doing damage, with most attacks having little to no defensive value. You also don't have any of the "40% damage reduction for 6 seconds on a 14 second cooldown" style abilities (though I guess that one blocking ability PLD gets is kinda similar) To put it simply - like with most other roles, tanking in WoW is more reflex based while FFXIV tanking is more about planning. This is a good thing, since FFXIV's engine doesn't really lend itself very well to split second reflex stuff beyond big "oh poo poo button" defensive cooldowns.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Zinkraptor posted:.You also don't have any of the "40% damage reduction for 6 seconds on a 14 second cooldown" style abilities (though I guess that one blocking ability PLD gets is kinda similar) Warrior has Inner Beast and DRK has Blackest Night, so everyone has one "low cooldown, low duration, high mitigation" button. I will agree that it's not as important or complicated as it is in WoW though. You don't really have to manage it like you do for WoW's active mitigation classes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
Holyshoot posted:you certainly do need to pay attention to it if you're trying to min/max. Aggro management is a thing you have to look at constantly while doing savage fights. It does take some measure of attention, I'll admit, but if you have a co-tank working with you (And you should if you are doing end-game fights) then shirk makes it pretty trivial still. I think the only fight I even think about aggro beyond the first 2 minutes of a fight is NED.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
Sarrisan posted:It does take some measure of attention, I'll admit, but if you have a co-tank working with you (And you should if you are doing end-game fights) then shirk makes it pretty trivial still. I think the only fight I even think about aggro beyond the first 2 minutes of a fight is NED. I worry about it on o1 and o3 until a few shirks have gone off then I'm good. But before that my sam and monk are riding me within 100k and we have no ninja. NED is actually the most relaxing one cause you only need aggro at specific points so I can just ignore it until they pop up. It's amazing how much more comfortable that fight became once I figured it out. Now we just need to get omega down.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 21:27
|
|
|
I've had aggro worries in Lakshmi Extreme as off-tank. If the main tank is in a DPS stance, it's hard to thread the needle, so to speak, as you have to stay between their enmity and the top DPS' enmity, which isn't always a huge margin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Jay Rust posted:I've had aggro worries in Lakshmi Extreme as off-tank. If the main tank is in a DPS stance, it's hard to thread the needle, so to speak, as you have to stay between their enmity and the top DPS' enmity, which isn't always a huge margin. Do a full shirk exchange instead of a half shirk exchange and that should keep you far enough in the lead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
Jay Rust posted:I've had aggro worries in Lakshmi Extreme as off-tank. If the main tank is in a DPS stance, it's hard to thread the needle, so to speak, as you have to stay between their enmity and the top DPS' enmity, which isn't always a huge margin. All you have to do for this is use provoke sometime before the offtank cleave goes out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
Holyshoot posted:I worry about it on o1 and o3 until a few shirks have gone off then I'm good. But before that my sam and monk are riding me within 100k and we have no ninja. NED is actually the most relaxing one cause you only need aggro at specific points so I can just ignore it until they pop up. It's amazing how much more comfortable that fight became once I figured it out. Now we just need to get omega down. Read: the worst possible situation to be in as a tank. fuckin RIP lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
Holyshoot posted:I worry about it on o1 and o3 until a few shirks have gone off then I'm good. But before that my sam and monk are riding me within 100k and we have no ninja. NED is actually the most relaxing one cause you only need aggro at specific points so I can just ignore it until they pop up. It's amazing how much more comfortable that fight became once I figured it out. Now we just need to get omega down. This, co-tanks that don't know how to Voke/Shirk, and the massive WHM aggro in O4S are what ultimately drove me to make a second WAR opener that begins with the aggro combo. Even using both my self-heals and a free Onslaught, it just wasn't enough. I occasionally have to dip back into Defiance for a Butcher's Block between Berserks (which costs me a Fell Cleave from that lost 10 beast gauge!  ).The O4S Neo pull in particular is awful because even with the aggro-boosting opener, a WHM will have a godawful habit of passing me in aggro at the exact moment Thunders go out.  I often need to hammer it into the co-tank's skull that his Provoke will be back up in time if he Voke/Shirk's me at the start of the fight, as most of them mistakenly think it won't. (And it's a lesson I really wish they'd learn, because it lets the WHM save their Lucid Dreaming.)
SL the Pyro fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Oct 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:25
|
|
|
I'm just glad I have ACT telling me numbers. Don't think I'd be playing at my optimal level if I didn't have them. And my hats off to anyone who can thread the threat needle using SE's garbage threat meter of bars.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:51
|
|
|
I have the threat meter enabled but I have no loving idea where it actually is on the HUD 
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
Bolow posted:I have the threat meter enabled but I have no loving idea where it actually is on the HUD It's the little bars under the job icons on the party list.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
When you have an enemy targeted, the threat meter is on the job icons in the party list. It's really tiny. Also, there's an aggro list, but it's mostly poo poo because it updates once every 3 seconds or so. Green bubble means <75% threat, orange triangle means >75%, red square means you have aggro, IIRC. Also, 
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
What the gently caress is that a threat meter for ants?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:09
|
|
|
Bolow posted:What the gently caress is that a threat meter for ants? Compared to how huge and obtrusive most of the UI elements are it's quite classy. It also means that an enormous number of newbie tanks have no idea that there is a way to determine how much threat they have. v  v
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
Truga posted:When you have an enemy targeted, the threat meter is on the job icons in the party list. It's really tiny. please do not trigger warriors like myself by using images from previous expansions and reminding us that we used to have flash
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:21
|
|
|
I wish the enemity meter would show when you're close to losing aggro
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:28
|
|
|
If Aggro #2's bar is almost full, that means you're close to losing aggro
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:35
|
|
|
Jay Rust posted:I've had aggro worries in Lakshmi Extreme as off-tank. If the main tank is in a DPS stance, it's hard to thread the needle, so to speak, as you have to stay between their enmity and the top DPS' enmity, which isn't always a huge margin. My advice in that scenario would be to take over MTing yourself. If the MT cares so much about personal DPS and so little about making threat work smoothly for the group, they'd probably be perfectly happy to be OT and use absolutely no tank stance or threat combos the whole fight. There are other workarounds involving more unusual provoke and shirk timing than you'd otherwise be used to from when you're paired with MTs who can be hosed to get a reasonable threat lead at the start (so shirk has enough to work with that even at 75% post-shirk you're still at #2), but honestly it's a micromanage-y pain in the rear end for the OT. That may be something you'd be willing to put up with if farming with a static and shooting the poo poo with your friends, but it's an unnecessary headache if you're just trying to get a reasonable farm rolling with a bunch of strangers. For successful pugging, you really want ease of coordination and reliable/consistent strategies, over more annoying techniques that could min/max results in theory but in reality just cause logistical issues and create more problems than they solve.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:35
|
|
|
Vil posted:That may be something you'd be willing to put up with if farming with a static and shooting the poo poo with your friends, but it's an unnecessary headache if you're just trying to get a reasonable farm rolling with a bunch of strangers. For successful pugging, you really want ease of coordination and reliable/consistent strategies, over more annoying techniques that could min/max results in theory but in reality just cause logistical issues and create more problems than they solve. The ultimate lesson of 'Skip Soar' 
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2017 23:57
|
|
|
Ok so I've played Summoner once since unlocking. How are the aethorflow changes going to effect the quasi-aoe by spreading the DoT's with Bane?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:18
|
|
|
Sade posted:If Aggro #2's bar is almost full, that means you're close to losing aggro I think he means to aggro list, and it'd definitely be nice if it was getting brighter red the closer the 2nd person is, being completely white if it's aggro+1 like in a provoke situation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
Truga posted:I think he means to aggro list, and it'd definitely be nice if it was getting brighter red the closer the 2nd person is, being completely white if it's aggro+1 like in a provoke situation. It would also be helpful for staying on top of things in group pulls if you're having a bad day and your aoe attacks aren't hitting the entire group and a stray mob is about to break away, not that that's ever happened to me, I always play perfectly
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:25
|
|
|
Yeah that's what I mean, I'm just thinking out loud how it'd be easily changed to give more info. The icon getting ever brighter would be an easy way. or the icon being hollow and filling up with red the closer the 2nd person is, being completely empty when you're 50% or more ahead or something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
Vil posted:My advice in that scenario would be to take over MTing yourself. If the MT cares so much about personal DPS and so little about making threat work smoothly for the group, they'd probably be perfectly happy to be OT and use absolutely no tank stance or threat combos the whole fight. just provoke a few gcd's before that mechanic comes out. I off-tanked that fight a million times and it's braindead simple. EDIT: Specifically, provoke, take the hit, and then shirk. by the time the mechanic comes again you should have provoke and shirk back up to repeat. Offtanks in the current expansion need to learn that threat is no longer the sole responsibility of the MT; in fact, as OT you are maybe more responsible than the MT. In a perfect world you and your partner will swap regularly, making full use of Shirk and your defensive cooldowns, but if your MT insists on staying MT then it's your job to provoke+shirk at regular intervals to maintain threat, since it costs you nothing while it may cost the MT significant time changing stances and using suboptimal threat combos. EDIT2: really, the whole concept of "main tank" and "off tank" are outdated. there is merely the active threat holder, and the spare tank. good tanking involves regular swaps and sharing of all tanking responsibilities in a given fight. Sarrisan fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Oct 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:35
|
|
|
you should have shirk on your bar anyway, so hit an aggro chain and shirk him if he doesn't want to build enough lead if it makes you feel better, it's not like doing this is going to make a noticeable difference in how quick you clear 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 00:38
|
|
|
EponymousMrYar posted:The ultimate lesson of 'Skip Soar' I'd be lying if I said that example hadn't popped into my head when writing my earlier post.  And to the other replies, yes, I agree tanks should work together and threat isn't purely the responsibility of a single for-the-whole-fight "main tank". That said, threat generation is at its absolute most valuable at the start of the fight, because it's the initial constant that gets multiplied by all those compounding shirks. Any downstream threat GCDs (on either tank's part) to compensate for lovely initial threat, are a net DPS loss compared to just generating more initial threat in the first place. (Threat resets notwithstanding, of course.) And setting aside DPS losses and clear speed, they're also just loving annoying to have to deal with, in part because of how easily avoidable they are. The party as a whole is worse off (even if the initial tank may be better off for pure DPS in a vacuum) as a result. So yes, you can work around it. And yes, it's a shared responsibility for both tanks. But it's still smoothest for everyone involved if whoever's tanking first doesn't half-rear end their initial threat to eke out 5 more DPS over the course of the entire fight.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 01:23
|
|
|
I guess I'm just not sure how you half-rear end initial threat unless you are just pulling in DPS stance or something. Even paladin (The shittiest pulling tank), outside of edge cases like a whole part of top-parsing SAMs and MNKs, only needs like 1 rage of halone combo in shield oath before switching to DPS stance for the rest of the fight. If whoever is pulling is not doing even that much then yes, that's dumb and annoying. EDIT: Also, tank dps is no joke if the tank in question is decent; having 2 tanks who dps properly is like having a whole other DPS player in the party. Conversely, having tanks and healers who don't dps for poo poo is hell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 01:28
|
|
|
Sarrisan posted:I guess I'm just not sure how you half-rear end initial threat unless you are just pulling in DPS stance or something. Even paladin (The shittiest pulling tank), outside of edge cases like a whole part of top-parsing SAMs and MNKs, only needs like 1 rage of halone combo in shield oath before switching to DPS stance for the rest of the fight. Agreed on all points. (And yes, I've had occasions of whoever pulls "not doing even that much". They're fun times.) I will add though, that on fights like Lakshmi where you care about who's in the #2 slot as opposed to the normal case of just who's in the #1 slot, that after initial shirking's over with, the current off tank is going to be at 60% of the current main tank's threat (3/4 vs. 5/4 of pre-shirk post-provoke threat). That 60% number still has to be in a comfortable lead over #3 to account for the fact that while tank DPS is, I agree, no joke, it's still less than DPS-DPS. So unless all four of your DPS suck enough to make it a non-issue, you don't want #3 to close the gap before the next shirk (or at least the next provoke) is off cooldown. If that's the case, then no additional shenanigans are needed for clean mechanic execution and everyone's happy. If that's not the case (#1 might have a solid lead over everyone else, but the other tank is very definitely not a solid #2 at their 60% spot) then additional shenanigans are needed and they're one or another flavor of annoying. Workable, sure, but annoying, and all the ones I can think of end up in a greater net loss for party DPS than just getting a second tank-stance threat combo from the initial tank at the start of the fight. Vil fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Oct 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 01:43
|
|
|
Sarrisan posted:I guess I'm just not sure how you half-rear end initial threat unless you are just pulling in DPS stance or something. Even paladin (The shittiest pulling tank), outside of edge cases like a whole part of top-parsing SAMs and MNKs, only needs like 1 rage of halone combo in shield oath before switching to DPS stance for the rest of the fight. Depends on party comp and gear levels. Sometimes 1 threat combo just isn't enough when you've got SAM's and BLM's bearing down on your enmity's butt.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 02:02
|
|
|
I once got the off tank cleave in Lakshmi Ex as a Red Mage in a PF group. Fortunately I was already in a position to keep it from cleaving the raid, but that little marker over my head gave me a heck of a start. I feel like I should have gotten comms for that, but I didn't. I did win the casting ring on a Need roll of 1, though, because I was the only caster! That's my story.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 02:07
|
|
|
Leofish posted:I once got the off tank cleave in Lakshmi Ex as a Red Mage in a PF group. Fortunately I was already in a position to keep it from cleaving the raid, but that little marker over my head gave me a heck of a start. You aren't going to get comms in PF regardless
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 02:26
|
|
|
I finally did Vedrfolnir Devoteth after grinding FATEs an hour with strangers, only for a ton of people to show up for the Darkscale boss fights and the follow-up Vedrfolnir boss fight. Afterwards, everyone in my party friended me and we all went on our separate ways after victory posing. That was probably the most fun I've had in this game. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 02:58
|
|
|
slev posted:You aren't going to get comms in PF regardless Oh, I know. I still try to comm people whenever I can in other content, but sometimes they leave before I can do so. Hobgoblin2099 posted:I finally did Vedrfolnir Devoteth after grinding FATEs an hour with strangers, only for a ton of people to show up for the Darkscale boss fights and the follow-up Vedrfolnir boss fight. I'm still hoping to one day get a weekend crew together to do all of the big monster fates in SB, including the giant chain in the Steppe. I've done almost all of the 30 minute boss fates except for the one in the Lochs that gives a TT card for gold, but I know new people are coming up all the time, and you kinda had to be there in the first week of the expansion to get them done reasonably easily. But I suppose with 4.1 around the corner, that'll have to wait a bit. People will want to do that instead, and so will I. HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Oct 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
To this day I have still never even seen the third Coerulregina fate.  I decided to lazy leve on carpenter a bit today and bought a bunch of normal quality birch lumber off the MB for an average of about 600 gil each. I then found that the leves themselves gave me 1000 gil per lumber in addition to the XP. I thought I had already explored most of the depths of marketboard dumbness but this was a fascinating new dimension.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 03:22
|
|
|
also, did you know that flour can be bought for cents a pound, but a loaf of bread can be sold for like five bucks?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Thundarr posted:To this day I have still never even seen the third Coerulregina fate. I mean, that's not necessarily that dumb because it a) expects people to factor in the reward of leves when setting their prices which I don't expect anyone to think about much less bother actually doing and b) leves are limited and how many people are gonna burn 'em for 1,000 gil when there's that much more productive stuff to do with them? I am enjoying leve gil rewards though now that I'm out of HW territory and most of the crafting recipes I've encountered so far are doable for free with a properly-leveled gathering class. It offsets some of the poor financial choices I made on my crafting journey up to here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
 Just got this bad boy. That.....wasn't terrible. However I still have 11 weapons left to grind for. That seems more terrible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 06:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:30 |
|
|
Thundarr posted:To this day I have still never even seen the third Coerulregina fate. I have yet to do Behemoth, Coeurlregina, and Prey Online. Do they just spawn randomly? Leofish posted:I'm still hoping to one day get a weekend crew together to do all of the big monster fates in SB, including the giant chain in the Steppe. I've done almost all of the 30 minute boss fates except for the one in the Lochs that gives a TT card for gold, but I know new people are coming up all the time, and you kinda had to be there in the first week of the expansion to get them done reasonably easily. I'm still in need of a number of big FATEs. I think I did all of the ARR ones, at least. GreenBuckanneer posted:
Get out now while you still can.
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Oct 5, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2017 06:05
|
|