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yronic heroism posted:It's the federal law that guaranteed they'd lose though. Without that they might go to trial, and when there's a possibility of a trial then the other side also might settle rather than risk it. no they were guaranteed to lose cause their case was poorly considered, much like the theater case. it's unfortunate, but there was no-one to redress the injuries (even if they could've been redressed with just money) suffered by these people even if the laws were different. the gun store wasn't responsible, the theater wasn't responsible, etc. the shooter was, but he was trying to blow his own apartment up so i dunno how much in the way of assets they could've got out of him anyway.
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Oct 6, 2017 21:40
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Yronic and Jefferson Clay are really sticking to that Weinstein playbook on the Erica Garner ad, I see.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:22
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yronic heroism posted:Sorry they focused on voting rights and stuff like that rather than seeking a handful of criminal convictions they probably wouldn't get and the Republican Supreme Court would definitely overturn. And sorry black voters didn't immediately make your talking point their top issue in 2012. Ah yes, his awesome focus on voting rights, that lead to....*squints at paper*...the Supreme Court cutting the legs off the VRA and the GOP trampling him to get their extremist judge onto the bench??!?!??! That's not right, why would you foolishly focus on something that Obama utterly botched and the Republican Supreme Court actually did overturn as a counter-example?
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Oct 6, 2017 23:18
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haha as if the obama admin was too busy
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Oct 6, 2017 23:24
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hey everybody shut up this exists now: 
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Oct 6, 2017 23:28
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When considering whether Obama had any worthwhile accomplishments addressing the needs of people of color, I think it's probably important to consider the opinions of people of color. http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/14/obama-leaves-office-on-high-note-but-public-has-mixed-views-of-accomplishments/  60 percent of black people say Obama solved major problems facing the country. 91% think he at least tried to address major problems facing the country. 38 percent of latinx people say Obama solved major problems facing the country. 81% think he at least tried to address major problems facing the country.  41% of black people say Obama was an outstanding president. 38% say he was above average. Only 22% rate him as average or below. Which is why when people say the democrats don't care about POC and don't try to help them, or that Obama didn't accomplish anything important for POC during his time in office, I think that's erasure.
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Oct 6, 2017 23:34
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Oct 6, 2017 23:35
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JeffersonClay posted:41% of black people say Obama was an outstanding president. 38% say he was above average. Only 22% rate him as average or below. So your argument is basically, "Most black voters liked Obama; therefore, the Democratic Party, as a whole, must care about black voters a lot." Even you must know that this is one of the dumber arguments you've made, right JC?
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Oct 6, 2017 23:48
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I admire jc's commitment to putting bad posts in the thread as per the titular request
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Oct 7, 2017 00:02
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JeffersonClay posted:I think that's erasure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J2OlIpQgF8
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Oct 7, 2017 00:10
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https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/916420535692742656 i didn't expect biden to be this bad...
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Oct 7, 2017 00:23
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Condiv posted:
Why? He was one of the biggest proponents on the War on Drugs.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:27
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Majorian posted:So your argument is basically, "Most black voters liked Obama; therefore, the Democratic Party, as a whole, must care about black voters a lot." No my argument is most black people think obama solved major problems facing the nation therefore asserting obama did nothing for black people erases their views on the issue. I think we should listen to POC when trying to understand issues facing POC. I understand why you think that's dumb because you only care about erasure as a cudgel to attack the Democratic Party
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Oct 7, 2017 00:43
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Majorian posted:And black voters, particularly women, seem to be holding the party accountable. It's good that Tom Perez is acknowledging that the Dems can't take black women for granted, but I hope he actually listens to them, instead of just paying them lip service. I think he'll find that black voters and left-populists of all races have a lot of goals in common. quote:Speaking to reporters, Jackson Lee attributed the decline in support to younger voters. “Every generation has a different way of looking at life,” she said. Today’s young people came of age under President Barack Obama when “all was well,” so now the Democratic Party needs to “talk values” particularly to younger black women. Jackson Lee insisted she’s “not daunted at all” by the drop off in support, but had a clear message for her party. “Democrats do well to listen to the standard-bearers of the party,” she said. “We need to shine our armor. We need to buff up our teapot.”
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Oct 7, 2017 00:54
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This is completely off the wall, but I really want someone to make a cover of the Toadies song Debaser, but replace Debaser with Erasure. Then use posts from this thread to fill in the other lyrics. also Calibanibal is likely the best poster on the forums right now. In regards to Joe Biden, He has always been one of those people that get viewed way more positively than his actual opinions. He's a "genuinely well meaning guy," but when he gets talking about things you end up at  almost always. He also likes to touch people when they clearly don't want to be touched.
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Oct 7, 2017 00:54
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Biden is also the student loans bankruptcy guy, so he'll never make it out of the 2020 primary.
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Oct 7, 2017 01:07
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For all the good that the Onion does, turning Joe Biden into a likable caricature instead of the walking sex-offender that he really is undoes all of that good. He, along with the Obamas and the Clintons and Pelosi and their centrist trash ilk need to be expelled from modern society as swiftly as possible. C. Everett Koop fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 01:54
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JeffersonClay posted:No my argument is most black people think obama solved major problems facing the nation therefore asserting obama did nothing for black people erases their views on the issue. You keep moving your goalposts. Your argument began here... JeffersonClay posted:[W]hen black primary voters overwhelmingly choose the establishment democrat, it's impossible to assert that the establishment democrats don't want to do anything for POC without erasing their clear preference. ...and has now become, "Black people think Obama solved major problems." Is that, perhaps, because your original argument was completely ludicrous and indefensible? C. Everett Koop posted:For all the good that the Onion does, turning Joe Biden into a likable caricature instead of the walking sex-offender that he really is undoes all of that good. Biden was already a "likable caricature" in the public's perception, long before The Onion ever wrote anything on him. The dude's had a lot of practice at being folksily charismatic and disarmingly "awww, shucks." Also, I know you're a gimmick/troll, but please don't advocate violence against former presidents; I like this thread and don't want it to get shut down. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 01:58
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JeffersonClay posted:I don't think you know what a false dilemma is. You claim legal strategies are bad because legislative strategies are better. Setting aside the fact that this is far from obvious, there's no reason why both strategies cannot be pursued simultaneously. The dilemma that you've created, where we must choose one or the other, is false. Explain why people should be able to sue manufacturers for manufacturing items that conform to legal specifications, perform as advertised, and are sold through legal means. If Sandy Hook happened because the gun went off accidentally or shot wildly off target due to a manufacturing defect or they hid the possibility that their guns could be used to shoot children or something like that then you can sue the manufacturer. You can't sue someone for their product working as intended just because someone put that intended use to something horrible. It's not suddenly their fault when the government at large, with full knowledge of the risks, has very clearly decided the risks were acceptable.
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Oct 7, 2017 02:03
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Majorian posted:Biden was already a "likable caricature" in the public's perception, long before The Onion ever wrote anything on him. The dude's had a lot of practice at being folksily charismatic and disarmingly "awww, shucks." The four things that people remember about Biden from the past eight years was mocking the poo poo out of Paul Ryan in the VP debate, the "this is a big loving deal" to Obama about LGBTQ rights, Diamond Joe and his Trans Am, and not running due to his son's death. The first two, while under his control, were independent one-off events, the latter obviously not positive at all. The third one was the constant image we were presented of Biden during his VP tenure, which was far from the truth from the groping wannabe rapist who's fully in bed with the credit card companies that he actually is. His negatives were overshown by a fictional version of himself. He's centrist trash, like the rest of that administration. e - also, fair enough
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Oct 7, 2017 02:06
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C. Everett Koop posted:
Oh, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying the caricature existed before The Onion started spoofing him.
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Oct 7, 2017 02:55
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JeffersonClay posted:No my argument is most black people think obama solved major problems facing the nation therefore asserting obama did nothing for black people erases their views on the issue. I think we should listen to POC when trying to understand issues facing POC. It would be accurate to say it was erasure if someone claimed that black people were unsatisfied with Obama, but voter satisfaction isn't exactly strongly connected with any tangible evaluation of a president's policy and the concrete results of their term. Also, it isn't particularly surprising that the first black president would enjoy significant support from black Americans. Concrete achievements aside, that's still a meaningful thing and it isn't at all surprising that many black people would be happy about this. The fact that you're having to resort to logic like this instead of actually pointing out the positive changes Obama has made in the lives of black Americans should set off warning bells. For some reason people like you never actually bother to argue the specifics of how someone like Obama or Clinton would be better for black Americans than someone further to the left (because there isn't a single reasonable argument supporting that point). To be clear, this isn't to say Obama didn't accomplish anything for black Americans; he did help certain issues, like police violence, become bigger topics in American discourse, and I'm sure stuff like the ACA (mostly the medicaid expansion) also yielded benefits for PoC. But if you actually look at tangible results for black Americans during Obama's term, he really didn't accomplish a hell of a lot and didn't make much, if any, headway regarding racial inequality in general. You should take a moment and ask yourself what exact benefit you think there is to defending his progress like this. What is the harm of being unsatisfied and asking for more? Why does it bother you when people do so? Have people defending the status quo against a desire for more positive change ever been on the right side historically? (The answer is no unless the change isn't actually positive, in which case you should be making that argument instead.)
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Oct 7, 2017 03:01
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Ytlaya posted:What is the harm of being unsatisfied and asking for more? Why does it bother you when people do so? This is what I'm dying to know from our resident centrist idiots. The only answer I've seen them say is something along the lines of "I don't care for the personality of lefty Twitter people, so I mock them as being idiot children who want ponies"
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Oct 7, 2017 03:07
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Majorian posted:Biden was already a "likable caricature" in the public's perception, long before The Onion ever wrote anything on him. The dude's had a lot of practice at being folksily charismatic and disarmingly "awww, shucks." Majorian, we may not always agree, but I appreciate this effort. Joe Biden is a good representative of what the Democrats were, and not a good leader in regards to what they should be. While you may feel he represents centrists, I would argue that he does not. The center of democratic voter beliefs has shifted left enough that he no longer represents that center. If anything people like Joe and Hillary are some of the most right wing Democrats in the party. WampaLord posted:This is what I'm dying to know from our resident centrist idiots. The only answer I've seen them say is something along the lines of "I don't care for the personality of lefty Twitter people, so I mock them as being idiot children who want ponies" Ill try and answer this as honestly as possible. It isn't a problem for people to advocate for more than they are getting. The problem comes when advocating for more turns into attacking people that you have labeled as an enemy with zero regard to the effects of that labeling. Hillary Clinton is not against giving people more than they currently have. She may not be the left's friend, but she is not an enemy in the same manner as the alt right. Many people treat her as worse, and it can be pretty off putting. It's legit to call people like them on their policies, but many posters go far beyond that. I get that there is no good faith between the Democratic party and the left, but there are good people trying to mend that, and it doesn't get much attention. DSA is something that appeals to many people you would call centrists, and we can hopefully agree that there are really positive developments on that front. Hopefully people like you and I can come together to make the changes we want to see a reality.
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Oct 7, 2017 04:33
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stone cold posted:you apologized for johnson's war crimes Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/JStein_Vox/status/916420535692742656 Good to see the leader of the Neoliberals pining for that. Even though frankly if he'd ran we 'd be fawning over him as president right now. E, crap I got James Eastland confused with John E, Rankin. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 05:10
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I get that there is no good faith between the Democratic party and the left, but there are good people trying to mend that, and it doesn't get much attention. DSA is something that appeals to many people you would call centrists, and we can hopefully agree that there are really positive developments on that front. Hopefully people like you and I can come together to make the changes we want to see a reality. That's the electorate, though. If you're talking about the leadership of the Democratic party I think you're just completely wrong. They're enemies to be defeated - nothing more. As far as the left is concerned they take turns pretending it doesn't exist, mocking it, undermining it, and when all else fails trying to take credit for its accomplishments. The Democratic leadership is no more a friend to the left than the board of directors of Breitbart News.
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Oct 7, 2017 05:25
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah the so called socialist who does nothing but punch left. sorry that pointing out that johnson was culpable in the atrocities and deaths of the vietnam war, i guess should i switch over to being a good leftist like you, and start salivating at american imperialism can somebody help me, are we pro imperialism now?
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Oct 7, 2017 06:53
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perhaps the more nuanced read would be, as i've said before, that lbj did extremely good poo poo domestically, but like all presidents in the post wwii era, was an imperialist monster, as one is when one is head of state of the extremely capitalist hegemon
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Oct 7, 2017 06:57
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Majorian, we may not always agree, but I appreciate this effort. I actually think you're correct on this, but what concerns me more is the outsized level of influence that right-wing Democrats have over the party leadership. e: oops, Kilroy beat me to it. But yeah, that's the big concern, all right. And as long as the party leadership lags behind the preferences of its base, the harder time they're going to have mobilizing that base. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 09:22
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stone cold posted:perhaps the more nuanced read would be, as i've said before, that lbj did extremely good poo poo domestically, but like all presidents in the post wwii era, was an imperialist monster, as one is when one is head of state of the extremely capitalist hegemon That's not really relevant to the leftists today who say we need to get back the LBJ's Great Society. I doubt they're proposing we re-invade Vietnam. Looking at the modern Democrats, the biggest imperialist war hawks also tend to be the most conservative, economically
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Oct 7, 2017 11:20
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:DSA is something that appeals to many people you would call centrists, and we can hopefully agree that there are really positive developments on that front. Does it really? I feel like you're the only centrist that respects the DSA here, I expect if you asked JC or Nevvy about their DSA feelings they would not feel the same way.
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Oct 7, 2017 11:30
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VitalSigns posted:That's not really relevant to the leftists today who say we need to get back the LBJ's Great Society. I am reminded how a lot of minority people in TGRS and elsewhere are skeptical of leftist ideas compared to the Great Society and/or New Deal given those programs were carefully crafted to exclude minorities. Historical context means different things to different people, and you have to keep that in mind with communicating. Though people looking for a reason to oppose the real core of what you're proposing will find a way no matter what you do.
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Oct 7, 2017 11:46
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Inescapable Duck posted:I am reminded how a lot of minority people in TGRS and elsewhere are skeptical of leftist ideas compared to the Great Society and/or New Deal given those programs were carefully crafted to exclude minorities. Historical context means different things to different people, and you have to keep that in mind with communicating. Though people looking for a reason to oppose the real core of what you're proposing will find a way no matter what you do. Those are much more reasonable concerns than "the far left wants to reinvade Vietnam, Medicare is just a dogwhistle for war with the Communist Chinese", because anticommunism and imperialism and colonialism had much more support from the conservative wing of the party and the far left was in the streets getting shot by the National Guard for protesting the war
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Oct 7, 2017 13:07
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stone cold posted:sorry that pointing out that johnson was culpable in the atrocities and deaths of the vietnam war, i guess When have I salivated at American Imperialism? I think America should get out of the Middle East entirely, and increasingly I think we should go with talks with Russia to solve Ukraine. How am I a imperialist. Oh Most Socialist of them all? (I bet you're a trots)
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Oct 7, 2017 15:02
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Rural America is only like 20% of the United States. However, I'll remind people that a 1/5 of the rural population is a minority.
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Oct 7, 2017 20:01
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VitalSigns posted:That's not really relevant to the leftists today who say we need to get back the LBJ's Great Society. yes but again, this came up itt when somebody literally thought johnson wasn't into war Crowsbeak posted:When have I salivated at American Imperialism? I think America should get out of the Middle East entirely, and increasingly I think we should go with talks with Russia to solve Ukraine. How am I a imperialist. Oh Most Socialist of them all? (I bet you're a trots) you repeatedly stanned for vietnam so
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Oct 7, 2017 20:17
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah the so called socialist who does nothing but punch left. You're being kind of dumb here. For an analogy, what you're doing is literally no different than liberals who use positive social justice views to mask harmful economic policy (except in reverse, using LBJ's positive accomplishments to somehow "offset" his escalation of the Vietnam War, which is pretty loving bad as far as crimes go).
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Oct 7, 2017 20:18
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Ytlaya posted:You're being kind of dumb here. For an analogy, what you're doing is literally no different than liberals who use positive social justice views to mask harmful economic policy (except in reverse, using LBJ's positive accomplishments to somehow "offset" his escalation of the Vietnam War, which is pretty loving bad as far as crimes go). yeop nobody is proposing that people want to reinvade vietnam like vitalsigns said, that's dumb the concern is the whitewashing of the deaths of 3 million+ vietnamese people
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Oct 7, 2017 20:20
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iirc this started (over a week ago) when yronic heroism claimed that the democratic base used to be southern racists (correct but not controversial) and that all the losing democratic presidential candidates since then have been super leftist (lol no) I'm not sure what point he was trying to make and probably he doesn't know either, but that's how it started - calling that out for the idiocy that it is doesn't strike me as trying to rehabilitate LBJ but maybe I missed some posts
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Oct 7, 2017 20:43
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point being, yronic heroism is such a terrible poster that he can inspire a weeks worth of bad posts in the bad post thread, makes u think
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