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Gonz posted:If we see Bij tangibly experienced on Discovery, I would consider the entire season a rousing success.
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Oct 7, 2017 08:18
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Cat Hatter posted:
If this was on anyone's list they should have been ignored. Of course, much like neocons, they weren't.
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Oct 7, 2017 09:24
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Angry Salami posted:My main problem with 31 is that there was never any good stories with them that couldn't have just been done with a standard corrupt admiral, and because of their nature, they tend to fall into the boring conspiracy narratives where everything the good guys do to stop them is just part of their Master Plan. They're just not interesting. I kinda like that they work explicitly through a corrupt admiral, though. They're practically the devil in the ear of the powerful and unscrupulous, whispering ideas to make their problems just go away if they just help a little and don't ask questions. I wouldn't mind them showing up more if it was explicit that they cause more trouble than they fix and cause institutional damage.
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Oct 7, 2017 11:15
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I still think people are being way to harsh on Discovery since we only have 3 episodes of set-up and it's trying to update a series that hasn't innovated since the early '90s. This is compounded by a weird cultural osmosis of what Star Trek is or isn't, some of the best episodes and arcs involve conflicted characters and answers that aren't clear-cut. But fans will shriek at any signs of a moral grey area. Discovery isn't what I'd call good... Yet. But it's certainly not the garbage fire some people seem to claim it is. Give it a bit more time. ashpanash posted:You're cherrypicking what many people say is one of the best episodes of any Trek series as a typical episode of TOS. I don't dislike TOS like I dislike Voyager, but it fails a lot more than it impresses, to me. You're not wrong! I should've said "TOS can be very good.
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Oct 7, 2017 14:13
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TOS often is good, but it gets a bad rap that's probably partially deserved.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:16
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I don't dislike it because it isn't like Star Trek, I dislike it because it's full of cliches and design-by-committee focus grouped stuff.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:19
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I like that STD is trying something new, as that definitely explains why every complaint about its obvious impersonation of every other sci-fi show from the past decade and its hack writing are answered with "well the other Star Trek series had bad seasons too." We could go through the exercise of trying to identify what it does that is actually new to Trek or to sci-fi/action TV as a whole. I can tell you what the conclusion of that is though... Fidel Cuckstro fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 15:27
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:TOS often is good, but it gets a bad rap that's probably partially deserved. TOS has a wider range of quality than the other shows do. It gives people whiplash to go from a City on the Edge or a Balance of Terror to an Alternative Factor, or a Doomsday Machine to a Wolf in the Fold, or even an All Our Yesterdays to a Turnabout Intruder. The other Trek shows tend to be more consistent, whether good or bad (with a couple exceptions like the first couple seasons of TNG and the first season of DS9, which both get slammed at least as often as TOS).
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Oct 7, 2017 15:37
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skasion posted:TOS has a wider range of quality than the other shows do. It gives people whiplash to go from a City on the Edge or a Balance of Terror to an Alternative Factor, or a Doomsday Machine to a Wolf in the Fold, or even an All Our Yesterdays to a Turnabout Intruder. The other Trek shows tend to be more consistent, whether good or bad (with a couple exceptions like the first couple seasons of TNG and the first season of DS9, which both get slammed at least as often as TOS). True. Also, most of season three, with the exception of a few episodes like Spectre of the Gun and All Our Yesterdays, are either disappointing or awful. I don't know of any other Star Trek show where that was true. First season TNG gets a lot of (well deserved) crap, but I think even it's better than season three TOS, and I'm a huge TOS fan.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:39
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:True. Also, most of season three, with the exception of a few episodes like Spectre of the Gun and All Our Yesterdays, are either disappointing or awful. I don't know of any other Star Trek show where that was true. First season TNG gets a lot of (well deserved) crap, but I think even it's better than season three TOS, and I'm a huge TOS fan. Seventh season of TNG petered out really hard, though people tend to give it a pass because there are some good episodes still, including the finale. TOS season 3 is a bit unique because the network was actively trying to kill the show; the only real parallel is Enterprise S4 which while it's definitely bad, and bad in a way somewhat unlike the rest of Enterprise, doesn't quite have the same "gently caress it, this show is doomed" air as TOS S3. It's really astonishing to me how much of Trek's reputation as a franchise was made on the very first season they ever aired. S2 is good as well but that first season, even before they really pinned down a canon backstory, has a higher density of good-to-great episodes than probably any other single season of Trek. And The Alternative Factor.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:46
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My conclusion from watching it all is the vast majority of TOS is garbage. Like 90%. It's worse than Voyager, though that's probably because Voyager has a lot more episodes and stopped clock twice a day etc.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:50
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Grand Fromage posted:My conclusion from watching it all is the vast majority of TOS is garbage. Like 90%. It's worse than Voyager, though that's probably because Voyager has a lot more episodes and stopped clock twice a day etc. You don't deserve to wear that uniform
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Oct 7, 2017 16:16
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:I like that STD is trying something new, as that definitely explains why every complaint about its obvious impersonation of every other sci-fi show from the past decade and its hack writing are answered with "well the other Star Trek series had bad seasons too." You know, I like you. Grand Fromage posted:My conclusion from watching it all is the vast majority of TOS is garbage. Like 90%. It's worse than Voyager, though that's probably because Voyager has a lot more episodes and stopped clock twice a day etc. You, on the other hand, I'm not so fond of.
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Oct 7, 2017 17:47
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Grand Fromage posted:My conclusion from watching it all is the vast majority of TOS is garbage. Like 90%. It's worse than Voyager, though that's probably because Voyager has a lot more episodes and stopped clock twice a day etc. I think part of that, though, has to do with the way TV has changed in 50 years, and viewer's expectations about TV and TV writing. TV has changed a lot, to the extent that even comparing TOS to Voyager is unfair. I think the standard isn't how TOS compares to later Trek series. It's how does it compare to, say, Lost in Space or The Time Tunnel.
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Oct 7, 2017 17:52
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To be clear. My stance on DSC is: let's see. I'm not suggesting that it should stay that way for multiple seasons, just that we've literally only had set-up until now and have no idea what the payoff for any of this is. There is a reason I'm rewatching good TOS episodes right now after all. Speaking of! What are some other really good ones I should watch? Balance of Terror, Spectre of the Gun and The City on the Edge of Forever were all in the top picks so I'm trying to figure out where to go from after this.
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Oct 7, 2017 17:55
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Epicurius posted:I think part of that, though, has to do with the way TV has changed in 50 years, and viewer's expectations about TV and TV writing. TV has changed a lot, to the extent that even comparing TOS to Voyager is unfair. I think the standard isn't how TOS compares to later Trek series. It's how does it compare to, say, Lost in Space or The Time Tunnel. That's fair but Lost in Space also sucks. I've never seen The Time Tunnel. Anyway, now that I'm done I'm comfortable with my beliefs. DS9 TNG ENT VOY TOS TAS up next, I have two fresh bottles of liquor to get me through. I had seen maybe half of TOS in reruns before but I have not seen a second of TAS other than gifs, so this will be special.
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Oct 7, 2017 17:58
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Moriatti posted:To be clear. My stance on DSC is: let's see. Trouble with Tribbles, Doomsday Machine, Amok Time, Mirror Mirror, Devil in the Dark
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Oct 7, 2017 18:02
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Moriatti posted:Speaking of! What are some other really good ones I should watch? Balance of Terror, Spectre of the Gun and The City on the Edge of Forever were all in the top picks so I'm trying to figure out where to go from after this. Amok Time, The Trouble with Tribbles, Journey to Babel, Arena, Mirror, Mirror, and A Private Little War. The Squire of Gothos is good too, if just for William Cambpell's over the top enthusiasm.
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Oct 7, 2017 18:04
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The one where an annoying god-like alien traps the ship and makes the crew do stuff for its amusement. Real suggestions: The Enterprise Incident, Space Seed, Journey to Babel
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Oct 7, 2017 18:05
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Squire of Gothos is great too. Shades of Q (this is probably the name of some EU book)
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Oct 7, 2017 18:05
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Grand Fromage posted:That's fair but Lost in Space also sucks. What no 
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Oct 7, 2017 18:07
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The_Doctor posted:What no Was every set/costume/prop designer in the 60s just tripping balls at all times?
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Oct 7, 2017 18:09
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Moriatti posted:Speaking of! What are some other really good ones I should watch? Balance of Terror, Spectre of the Gun and The City on the Edge of Forever were all in the top picks so I'm trying to figure out where to go from after this. Mirror, Mirror and Amok Time are two good early season two episodes. Another good one that doesn't often get mentioned is The Ultimate Computer. It summarizes my feelings about autonomous driving and other technology like that. All Our Yesterdays and The Spectre of the Gun are two good season three ones. I would make a strong case for Spock's Brain because I personally think it's hilarious. But it's your choice on that one, since most people seem to hate it. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 18:10
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Moriatti posted:To be clear. My stance on DSC is: let's see. Going a little off the beaten path of a "best of" list, I like Obsession, The Conscience of the King, and Operation: Annihilate!
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Oct 7, 2017 18:14
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If you like MST3K you should watch Spock's Brain, it's the same category.
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Oct 7, 2017 18:18
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I enjoyed Whom Gods Destroy (oh no the Joker has taken over Arkham!), The Empath (what is intellect, without compassion?) and The Way to Eden (space beatniks), from the otherwise-awful third series of TOS. [e] oh and Spectre of the Gun (nightmarish OK Corral proto-HOLODECK BROKE episode). spincube fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 18:22
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Moriatti posted:To be clear. My stance on DSC is: let's see. I think that's most people's view, but if we aren't allowed critical discussion after 2 or 3 episodes then there is literally nothing to talk about. You and others bucketing criticism into "shrieking" fans doesn't really further discussion either. I am hopeful and open but also critical and a fan, but not shrieking.
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Oct 7, 2017 18:30
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TOS episodes may only be 5 minutes longer than TNG episodes but holy crap you sure as hell feel it. Those episodes were padded beyond all reason, right down to some episodes having repeated act outs of Kirk getting captured.
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Oct 7, 2017 18:32
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TMP makes more sense. TOS has 50 minute episodes that feel like three hours which really fits with the 20 hours of TMP.
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Oct 7, 2017 18:37
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TMP's running time is fine if you kill the lights, get a big HDTV, a really really good bass sound system, and aren't quite sober. Or watch the 22 minute Tron: Legacy soundtrack cut. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 18:54
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Another I haven't seen mentioned yet is The Tholian Web. At least I think that's the one where Spock and McCoy go through Kirk's message he leaves for them in case he dies. That's a good character moment for the three of them and elevates an otherwise middling episode.
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Oct 7, 2017 19:10
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Thank you guys! This should keep me fueled for a little while now!The Bloop posted:I think that's most people's view, but if we aren't allowed critical discussion after 2 or 3 episodes then there is literally nothing to talk about. You and others bucketing criticism into "shrieking" fans doesn't really further discussion either. Fair, I definitely don't mean to blanket shut down criticism, I'm just tired of the same repeated points. There are definitely things in these three episodes to be critical of! poo poo like "Black Alert!" Brings out a tone I personally hope we kind of avoid. I think the next batch of episodes will be pretty make or break. As long as it doesn't get to Agents of SHIELD levels where I have to petition people to watch 10 hours of garbage to get the the point where there are actual cool moments and superheroes. This is a pro choice for all repeat viewings.
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Oct 7, 2017 21:04
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The "Black Alert" was to let everyone know they brought Burnham aboard. Pretty racist if you ask me.
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Oct 7, 2017 22:49
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Metamorphosis is a great episode. TOS has a lot of great poo poo. I agree that the quality swings around a lot, but I'd rather that than the bored malaise of Voyager. You have to get like 5 seasons in before it stops being a surprise when there are a couple of decent episodes in a row. Those 3 seasons of TOS are a loving rollercoaster. edit: Oh my god, how could we forget The Corbomite Maneuver? Peak Trek! Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 22:59
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:All Our Yesterdays and The Spectre of the Gun are two good season three ones. Don't forget The Enterprise Incident. That's one of my all time favorites.
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Oct 8, 2017 00:05
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Enterprise Incident is fun to watch just for Spock and the commander turning up the heat, and it has a nice soundtrack and is generally better than the average third season ep by virtue of moving along at a decent clip and not being dreadfully boring. But still I hesitate to recommend it because the plot is complete nonsense. Their grand plan to steal a Romulan cloaking device for Starfleet was to 1) have a starship captain violate the border, 2) get his ship captured, 3) fake his death, 4) have his first officer seduce the Romulan commander as part of a double cross, 5) surgically convert the captain into a Romulan so he could 6) walk right onto the ship and steal the cloaking device, followed by 7) installing the cloaking device on their own ship so they could sneak out right under the Romulans' noses? This plot is so complicated and could fail so many different ways it only holds together by its own momentum. Just for instance: What if the Romulans had just blown the Enterprise up, crippled it completely, or imprisoned/killed the entire crew and boarded the ship? What if the Romulans had a competent doctor who noticed Kirk wasn't dead? What if the Romulan commander was a man? What if Romulans weren't complete morons and detected Kirk beaming back aboard their ship, or had just put their loving shields up while in the presence of the starship of a hostile power? What if they actually guarded their cloaking device? What if the cloaking device didn't neatly screw into the Enterprise and work perfectly? What if the Romulans had raised their loving shields after their cloaking device was stolen out from under their noses, would they have just left Spock to face a firing squad? All these are nitpicks sure, but the bigger point is that the plot only works because the antagonists are ineffectual morons, and the commander is literally more interested in getting some than in doing her job.
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Oct 8, 2017 01:14
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Spock was a sex symbol man.
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Oct 8, 2017 01:16
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Gonna watch I Borg soon, and I'm excited both because of the title and because it was one of the episodes recommended by this thread.
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Oct 8, 2017 01:24
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The Romulans learned their convoluted plans from dealing with the Federation.
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Oct 8, 2017 01:27
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Gonna watch I Borg soon, and I'm excited both because of the title and because it was one of the episodes recommended by this thread. One of my favorite things about I, Borg for me now is how the Greatest Gen guys said they really liked how Picard was smart to instant pull the away team off the planet and nuked it from orbit, for a surprisingly short episode!
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