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Angry_Ed posted:Which you will not accomplish by adopting GOP messaging tactics. Calling for Democrats to give back donations they received from rapists = adopting GOP messaging tactics? I'm not sure what you're referring to, specifically.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:36
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Jaxyon posted:OK how does that not apply outside of a message board? I don't know why you keep bringing this up. In the general context you can expect the Weinstein problem to be brought up as a "Democrats are the real sexist" gotcha argument. Here it is used as a stepping stone in a process to clean up the party and insulate it from further scandals by using Weinstein as a case study in institutional complacency and being too accommodating .of people outside party control The intent and framing are completely different.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:36
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botany posted:okay somebody explain horseshoe theory to me. i see it referenced a lot but i never saw an explanation for it. Horseshoe theory is the belief that people on the extreme left and right are closer to each other than they are to "the middle".
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Oct 11, 2017 19:36
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Love 2 worry about how Republicans frame things because I lack ideological and moral convictions
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Oct 11, 2017 19:37
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steinrokkan posted:I don't know why you keep bringing this up. In the general context you can expect the Weinstein problem to be brought up as a "Democrats are the real sexist" gotcha argument. Here it is used as a stepping stone in a process to clean up the party and insulate it from further scandals by using Weinstein as a case study in institutional complacency and being too accommodating .of people outside party control The intent and framing are completely different. I'm talking about the "lol message board tryhards" sentiment, actually.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:37
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Jaxyon posted:I'm talking about the "lol message board tryhards" sentiment, actually. Well, since I never brought that up, I don't have anything to say about that.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:37
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Angry_Ed posted:Which you will not accomplish by adopting GOP messaging tactics. Stop feeding their narrative, it's as simple as that. A good first step would be for you to stop validating the GOP's message
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Oct 11, 2017 19:38
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Majorian posted:Calling for Democrats to give back donations they received from rapists = adopting GOP messaging tactics? I'm not sure what you're referring to, specifically. We need to shut up and support the Dems cuz otherwise the whole world blows up. Never mind the fact that Democrats don't have any meaningful control over anything.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:39
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botany posted:okay somebody explain horseshoe theory to me. i see it referenced a lot but i never saw an explanation for it. its an idiotic idea that people like nevvy buy into because it allows them call nazis and those that think women and minorities should have rights the same thing because if you take a political spectrum line and curve it suddenly the far left and far right are next each other #wow #whoa
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Oct 11, 2017 19:39
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Majorian posted:Publicly exorcizing the rapists out of the former party will help remove the latter party from power. And that's what's happening. Who came out in defense of Weinstein once this all came out? And IIRC several democrats have already donated the money they got from Weinstein to various charities, although I'm fuzzy on the details. I'll take a second and look it up RQ. edit: here: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/us/politics/democrats-harvey-weinstein.html
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Oct 11, 2017 19:39
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anyhow horseshoe theory is bunk as recent months have confirmed the fishhook model of politics
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Oct 11, 2017 19:40
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Majorian posted:Calling for Democrats to give back donations they received from rapists = adopting GOP messaging tactics? I'm not sure what you're referring to, specifically. Ok first of all that's not what I was talking about but second of all surprise surprise that is GOP messaging tactics right out of the loving RNC. As evidenced here. This was out 3 days before Chris Murphy (D-CT) starting saying the same thing. Additionally, how exactly does returning money to Harvey Weinstein hurt him and help the Democrats other than some misguided idea of "I won't handle your dirty money" (which is hilarious coming from the same place as "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" Can't have it both ways)? If anything the Democrats should not use the money for themselves but donate it to RAINN or other charities. This is not my idea of course, it's something I saw elsewhere and I agree with it. And apparently so do many Democrats who are already donating their money and disavowing him as shown above: LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:And that's what's happening. Who came out in defense of Weinstein once this all came out? I repeat my initial statement. Stop feeding the GOP's narrative. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 19:44
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:And that's what's happening. Who came out in defense of Weinstein once this all came out? Lindsay Lohan. 
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Oct 11, 2017 19:44
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no-one knew about harvey weinstein, that's why this joke was unintelligible in 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cepoO8SoPS8
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Oct 11, 2017 19:48
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Angry_Ed posted:Ok first of all that's not what I was talking about but second of all surprise surprise that is GOP messaging tactics right out of the loving RNC. As evidenced here. That's an absurd take on the issue. The Republicans may be calling on the Democrats to return the money, but they're clearly doing so in bad faith. They don't think the Democrats are actually going to do it, and they're hoping that they don't. People on the left calling on the Democrats to do the same thing, in the hopes that they will live up to the principles that they claim to espouse, and will strengthen themselves in doing so. The way it strengths the party is because it energizes the base, by signaling to them, "We're going to start living by our principles for a change. You can vote for us with a clear conscience, and can once again have faith that we will fight for women and sexual assault survivors." I'm fine with donating it to RAINN or whatever; the point is, they need to not keep the money, and they need to make getting rid of that money as public as possible. The signal needs to be, "We won't stand for any more donors like Harvey Weinstein."
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Oct 11, 2017 19:49
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Raskolnikov38 posted:anyhow horseshoe theory is bunk as recent months have confirmed the fishhook model of politics See David Rubin.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:50
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Majorian posted:That's an absurd take on the issue. The Republicans may be calling on the Democrats to return the money, but they're clearly doing so in bad faith. They don't think the Democrats are actually going to do it, and they're hoping that they don't. People on the left calling on the Democrats to do the same thing, in the hopes that they will live up to the principles that they claim to espouse, and will strengthen themselves in doing so. No, an absurd take on the issue is stumbling in here and demanding Democrats do a thing they're already doing because you're arguing in just as much bad faith as the Republicans and you can't stop yourself scoring own goals by feeding the right-wing narrative.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:51
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Condiv posted:it'd help if i actually suggested that You suggested that obama knowingly sent his daughter to a white rapist because he wanted the rapist's money. Calling out racism isn't racism, friend.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:52
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Condiv posted:no-one knew about harvey weinstein, that's why this joke was unintelligible in 2013 Anyone in the movie industry who says they didn't know about Weinstein is either in an incredible bubble or lying.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:52
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In 2020 the GOP will dare the Dems to win the election, and the DNC will back out of the race so as not to give in to Republican talking points.
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Oct 11, 2017 19:53
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JeffersonClay posted:You suggested that obama knowingly sent his daughter to a white rapist because he wanted the rapist's money. i didn't suggest that either JC keep trying to justify your racism though
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Oct 11, 2017 19:53
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Jaxyon posted:Anyone in the movie industry who says they didn't know about Weinstein is either in an incredible bubble or lying. Anyone who has a yearly income over a million y is definitionally enbubbled
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Oct 11, 2017 19:58
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JeffersonClay posted:You suggested that obama knowingly sent his daughter to a white rapist because he wanted the rapist's money. No one actually thought Obama's daughter getting an internship with Weinstein was anything other than a trade for more political access. But given how insistant you are that it definitely didn't happen, it begs the question...
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Oct 11, 2017 19:59
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Angry_Ed posted:Which you will not accomplish by adopting GOP messaging tactics. Stop feeding their narrative, it's as simple as that. "It's okay to criticize Democrats, but you must do so very politely and repeatedly establish that the Republicans are still worse."
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Oct 11, 2017 19:59
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Condiv posted:i didn't suggest that either JC I'm not sure why you think "don't stereotype obama as an Uncle Tom" is the real racist statement here but at least it's consistent with your terrible posting. If there was some evidence that obama actually knew Weinstein was a rapist, that would be different, but when the accusation is based on nothing but your intense hatred of the man, and the accusation fits perfectly into a racist stereotype, the suggestion that racial animus is playing a role in your thinking isn't unwarranted.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:01
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Angry_Ed posted:No, an absurd take on the issue is stumbling in here and demanding Democrats do a thing they're already doing because you're arguing in just as much bad faith as the Republicans and you can't stop yourself scoring own goals by feeding the right-wing narrative.  In what way am I arguing in bad faith? To what nefarious end do you think I'm calling on the Democrats to give away the Weinstein money and publicly exorcise sexual predators from the party?God almighty, dude, what is the matter with you?
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Oct 11, 2017 20:02
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Ytlaya posted:"It's okay to criticize Democrats, but you must do so very politely and repeatedly establish that the Republicans are still worse." don't forget that the person needs to invest a certain number of posts weekly to how lovely the republicans are
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Oct 11, 2017 20:02
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Ytlaya posted:"It's okay to criticize Democrats, but you must do so very politely and repeatedly establish that the Republicans are still worse." Speaking as a leftist(because otherwise I'll get called a liberal for criticizing leftist): I see about a 2- or 3-1 ratio of criticizing dems to republicans, and much stronger vitriol. I've seen a ton of usually white leftists be way way more angry at hillary than Trump, who's an actual white supremacist in office, and then they don't do anything but criticize. Though that's repeating myself, because they're white leftists.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:03
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MizPiz posted:No one actually thought Obama's daughter getting an internship with Weinstein was anything other than a trade for more political access. I have no doubt that Weinstein gave her the internship as a means to curry favor. I do doubt Condiv's assertion that Obama knew Weinstein was a rapist and let his daughter do the internship anyway as a means of securing weinstein's cash.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:04
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm not sure why you think "don't stereotype obama as an Uncle Tom" is the real racist statement here but at least it's consistent with your terrible posting. If there was some evidence that obama actually knew Weinstein was a rapist, that would be different, but when the accusation is based on nothing but your intense hatred of the man, and the accusation fits perfectly into a racist stereotype, the suggestion that racial animus is playing a role in your thinking isn't unwarranted. because i didn't say the things you're trying to claim i said, and what i did say isn't comparable. it's the real racist statement cause my statements on the whole malia internship didn't have any racist undertones at all. oh, and yours have added sexist undertones to boot, considering you're treating malia as an item to be traded, while i went out of my way to point out that the internship doesn't reflect on obama's feelings towards weinstein since malia is her own woman and could choose to intern under weinstein despite the objections or wishes of her parents hth you understand your racism and sexism jc 
Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 20:05
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Majorian posted:
You asserted that Democrats should do a thing they're already doing, and when called out on it have continued to ignore the fact that you were hilariously wrong. But I'm sure you'll just rationalize it away as "they should've done it sooner" EDIT: LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I think it's okay to couch it within the idea that we're supposed to be better, but this weinstein poo poo is democrats being as bad as republicans and they need to be seen fixing the problem. Looks like they are, though, and I still like Olbermann's response to republicans demanding the money be given back: Republicans should have to donate the money they got from Ailes and O'Reilly to RAINN as well. It gets democrats to be better, calls out republicans for not being better, and hits pretty much all the right points that should be hit without getting into some weird RWM narrative bullshit. It's also still a criticism of democrats because it draws a direct parallel with them and republicans doing the same thing. Agreed. It accomplishes the goal of fixing the problems in our own house without validating the GOP and turns it back on them. It is important that any sense of "both sides-ism" be utterly destroyed without downplaying that yes, the Democrats need to be better about who they associate and take donations from. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 20:06
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Ytlaya posted:"It's okay to criticize Democrats, but you must do so very politely and repeatedly establish that the Republicans are still worse." I think it's okay to couch it within the idea that we're supposed to be better, but this weinstein poo poo is democrats being as bad as republicans and they need to be seen fixing the problem. Looks like they are, though, and I still like Olbermann's response to republicans demanding the money be given back: Republicans should have to donate the money they got from Ailes and O'Reilly to RAINN as well. It gets democrats to be better, calls out republicans for not being better, and hits pretty much all the right points that should be hit without getting into some weird RWM narrative bullshit. It's also still a criticism of democrats because it draws a direct parallel with them and republicans doing the same thing.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:06
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Condiv posted:because i didn't say the things you're trying to claim i said, and what i did say isn't comparable. it's the real racist statement cause my statements on the whole malia internship didn't have any racist undertones at all. oh, and yours have added sexist undertones to boot, considering you're treating malia as an item to be traded, while i went out of my way to point out that the internship doesn't reflect on obama's feelings towards weinstein since malia is her own woman and could choose to intern under weinstein despite the objections of her parents Anyone accusing me of saying something racist is the real racist, I continue to repeat without an ounce of self awareness. The real racism is the false accusations of racism leveled against upstanding white people. You argued repeatedly that Malia was in no danger because Obama, as the most powerful man in the world, would have been able to stop it from happening, or the threat of his retribution would have been so palpable as to deter any attack on his daughter. But then you say it's sexist to suggest Obama had any power to scuttle the internship. Yes, you were very clear that Malia was her own woman and her decisions were her own, when that was convenient in your attacks on her father. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 20:09
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Jaxyon posted:Speaking as a leftist(because otherwise I'll get called a liberal for criticizing leftist): It's not too difficult to explain why this is, though. A few reasons someone might do this: - Someone could reasonably believe that criticizing Democrats as someone on the left is more productive than criticizing Republicans, because liberals/leftists criticizing Trump accomplishes either nothing or worse than nothing (because, if anything, such criticism would just increase Trump's perceived legitimacy in the minds of potential Republican voters). Democratic politicians presumably care what Democratic voters believe; Republicans sure as hell don't. - Someone could be reasonably biased in favor of improving the status quo rather than resisting harm to the status quo. If your life is currently poo poo, it isn't unreasonable to care more on an emotional level about positive change (which the Democratic Party is the only possible vector for) than the possibility of things getting worse. - There's at least a debate to be had, at least on these forums, with regards to inter-Democratic Party conflict. Hardly anyone here is going to disagree if someone talks about how bad Trump is. Speaking for myself, it's mostly that I see the Democratic Party as the only possible vector for positive change, so my highest priority is making it better. I feel powerless to improve the Republicans.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Anyone who has a yearly income over a million y is definitionally enbubbled enbubbled from the average person, not from the socialités. in such cases the relationship is inverse.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:12
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Jaxyon posted:Speaking as a leftist(because otherwise I'll get called a liberal for criticizing leftist): That is because we have a much better chance of affecting the way the Democratic Party behaves than the GOP, and because those of us who want the Democrats to do better feel we need to hold our leaders accountable. I'm a little amazed that you think that's a bad thing. quote:I've seen a ton of usually white leftists be way way more angry at hillary than Trump, who's an actual white supremacist in office, and then they don't do anything but criticize. Though that's repeating myself, because they're white leftists. That's because they expect better from Hillary Clinton than they do from Donald Trump. Angry_Ed posted:You asserted that Democrats should do a thing they're already doing, and when called out on it have continued to ignore the fact that you were hilariously wrong. Are you getting me mixed up with someone else? I think you must be, because I just started posting in this conversation less than 45 minutes ago, and I'm pretty sure I haven't been "hilariously wrong" on anything on this topic. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 11, 2017 |
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Oct 11, 2017 20:14
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Ytlaya posted:It's not too difficult to explain why this is, though. A few reasons someone might do this: That's not the dialog though. It's mostly going as hard as possible on Dems and not being constructive. Yeah having to work with liberals and centrists sucks. We have no choice.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:15
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JeffersonClay posted:Anyone accusing me of saying something racist is the real racist, I continue to repeat without an ounce of self awareness. The real racism is the false accusations of racism leveled against upstanding white people. it's hosed up that you feel that way and you should stop being racist JC Ytlaya posted:It's not too difficult to explain why this is, though. A few reasons someone might do this:  on all points ytaylaimo, yelling about the republicans being poo poo is kind of a waste of time, at least on these forums. trying to shift the dems left or discussing how they should move left is more important
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Oct 11, 2017 20:15
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Ytlaya posted:It's not too difficult to explain why this is, though. A few reasons someone might do this: Yeah, why the hell would you spend your time talking about the dumpster fire of the republican party, it's a lost cause, a dark abyss. There is nothing to be gleaned there other than "yup, the rubbish fire sure is still there" It's far more interesting and productive to talk about the party that can overcome the dumpster fire, and how it should be done
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Oct 11, 2017 20:17
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Ytlaya posted:It's not too difficult to explain why this is, though. A few reasons someone might do this: You are my favorite poster about these topics because you bring nuance and rationality where others just bring vitriol. Thanks!
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