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i'll give it another shot, then.
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Oct 13, 2017 18:14
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What is with the whole skill thing that LNs/WNs seem to love? I'm reading the Spider web novel, and it's okay if pretty trashy, but I really don't find skill lists to be very compelling. And I remember SAO and Konosuba are fascinated by them as well. Is min-maxing on skills really the most interesting thing Japanese authors can think of doing in a fantasy setting?
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Oct 14, 2017 01:42
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Myriad Truths posted:What is with the whole skill thing that LNs/WNs seem to love? I'm reading the Spider web novel, and it's okay if pretty trashy, but I really don't find skill lists to be very compelling. And I remember SAO and Konosuba are fascinated by them as well. Is min-maxing on skills really the most interesting thing Japanese authors can think of doing in a fantasy setting? I don't get it either. I think it's supposed to appeal to the same mindset as grinding in video games, though the fact that the "game" in question doesn't even exist seems to make it lack that appeal for me, at least.
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Oct 14, 2017 01:47
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It's just One of those things. I can sympathize even though I'd be the sort of person that hates putting that much effort into getting every little thing maxed out and poo poo. Because I still loving do it. Never to completion but it still scratches an itch I didn't know I had.
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Oct 14, 2017 02:21
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It's all over the English web-novel scene too - it is a really impenetrable trend to me. Like in some cases its tolerable as shorthand for quickly knowing that MC is overwhelmingly more powerful than the mook - though really I can infer that in most cases - and it also gives a sense of progression, through learning skills and whatnot... but do some people actually like to read pages and pages of skill lists and level up bonuses?  And of course 90% of them don't actually have any sort of coherent system, just half remembered bits and pieces from video games the author has played... I've never read a story I felt where I felt having a bunch of weird video gamey RPG stuff shoved in there improved the experience, the ones that I did like I liked in spite of those elements.
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Oct 14, 2017 06:23
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sunken fleet posted:It's all over the English web-novel scene too - it is a really impenetrable trend to me. Like in some cases its tolerable as shorthand for quickly knowing that MC is overwhelmingly more powerful than the mook - though really I can infer that in most cases - and it also gives a sense of progression, through learning skills and whatnot... but do some people actually like to read pages and pages of skill lists and level up bonuses? Yeah; my biggest issue is that the systems in question are often really dumb and involve the protagonist getting absurd skills that would be broken as poo poo in a real game (Kumoko is also guilty of this; one of her most ridiculous skills *technically* has a downside, but she's randomly able to negate it so it's basically moot). It's basically a way to make the power fantasy aspect of the story explicit. Leveling up in these things also annoys me, because the author can basically completely arbitrarily decide when the protagonist levels up. edit: I've been continuing to read My Disciple Died Yet Again and am around chapter 60 or so. I enjoy it a lot; lots of funny stuff and the interaction between Zhu Yao and Yu Yan/Wang Xuzhi is really cute. I hope Wang Xuzhi finds out that she reincarnated at some point, because he is a good guy. The only downside so far is that the specific cultivation system and fight scenes aren't that interesting, but those things aren't really the focus of the story so I don't mind much. I don't know if it's something specific to Chinese language/humor, but there's something about the sort of "snappy" humor that I find really funny. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Oct 14, 2017 |
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Oct 14, 2017 06:41
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah; my biggest issue is that the systems in question are often really dumb and involve the protagonist getting absurd skills that would be broken as poo poo in a real game (Kumoko is also guilty of this; one of her most ridiculous skills *technically* has a downside, but she's randomly able to negate it so it's basically moot). It's basically a way to make the power fantasy aspect of the story explicit. It's tolerable in Kumoko for me because you can largely skip over the big stat blocks and they story will highlight important changes and such. Although Kumoko does start gathering some absurd skills and abilities, there's a reason and explanation behind it that I found satisfactory. A more by-the-books story would've just gone chasing the power fantasy aspect but I find the direction of Kumoko's story to be fairly interesting. I haven't read many translated Chinese WN but Zhu Yao's insults and go-to swears grew on me over time.
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Oct 14, 2017 06:54
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Argas posted:It's tolerable in Kumoko for me because you can largely skip over the big stat blocks and they story will highlight important changes and such. Although Kumoko does start gathering some absurd skills and abilities, there's a reason and explanation behind it that I found satisfactory. A more by-the-books story would've just gone chasing the power fantasy aspect but I find the direction of Kumoko's story to be fairly interesting. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Kumoko, but I enjoy it in spite of the details of the game system and Kumoko's leveling up. I actually enjoy the broader plot stuff and other characters more than Kumoko herself and enjoyed the latter half of the story more than the early parts. People complain about Shun, but I like him because he really isn't a Mary Sue; there are quite a few other characters who are far more powerful and central to the plot than him (if anything, the closest thing to a traditional "Mary Sue" would be the vampire girl). He also seems like a genuinely good guy, and characters like that are actually fairly rare among WN protagonists (who are usually varying levels of cynical/antisocial if not outright misanthropic). In MDDYA, for some reason one of the funniest parts for me was near the beginning when Zhu Yao spanked Wang Xuzhi and he blushed and slowly looked away. The mental image was funny.
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Oct 14, 2017 07:17
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From what I understand it is because fantasy in the US was mostly based on DnD and in japan and china it was based on early RPG video games for what a lot of these authors played as kids.
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Oct 14, 2017 07:43
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Fallorn posted:From what I understand it is because fantasy in the US was mostly based on DnD and in japan and china it was based on early RPG video games for what a lot of these authors played as kids. Yeah, but this whole "web novels with actual stats/skills" thing is a fairly recent phenomenon (at least in terms of it being a common trend). I think that it's more due to the very medium of web novels allowing for a bunch of "lowest common denominator" writing to become available. The stats/skills stuff is ultimately just the culmination of "uber stronk wish fulfillment protagonist" stories, in that it allows the superior power of the protagonist to be explicitly and numerically codified within the context of the story. Another reason why I find this stuff tolerable in Kumoko in a way I don't in most other WNs is that the game-like system is at least a plot element (and beyond the system doesn't really exist, instead becoming a more typical sort of fantasy magic). A lot of these stories just play it straight, though.
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Oct 14, 2017 07:59
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Yea it's definitely recent. Trashy fantasy based on D&D has existed as long as D&D has but somehow Drizzet mowing down a million guys in a row because of his "bracers that mysteriously make him feel light" and "swords that are impossibly sharp" is more palatable to me than Kumoko explicitly getting a +1 to her webs and +5 to her fire resistance so now she can kill the magma thing... It feels like the kind of stuff that is left behind the curtain of a story for a reason - because it takes the fun out if you can be like "oh she's level 144, hes level 25 - I know how this ends". Maybe I'm just an old tho
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Oct 14, 2017 09:15
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sunken fleet posted:Yea it's definitely recent. Trashy fantasy based on D&D has existed as long as D&D has but somehow Drizzet mowing down a million guys in a row because of his "bracers that mysteriously make him feel light" and "swords that are impossibly sharp" is more palatable to me than Kumoko explicitly getting a +1 to her webs and +5 to her fire resistance so now she can kill the magma thing... Nah, it'd definitely get boring if it gets brought up again and again without doing anything interesting with it.
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Oct 14, 2017 09:27
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I guess I'm in the minority because I kind of enjoy the WNs that have very intricate skill/level systems set up. It's lazy writing and kind of repetitive how so many stories do the same things, but I guess when you're working in a genre that's largely power fantasies, having a way to demonstrate the MC getting stronger is a good thing? Shoehorning in video gamey level/skill systems is at least a bit more elegant than the DBZ power level stuff you get in shonen manga. About half of the novels I find tend to start to give it up halfway through, though. At least stuff like kumoko and death march make an effort to keep it updated even as it gets unwieldy. Fallorn posted:From what I understand it is because fantasy in the US was mostly based on DnD and in japan and china it was based on early RPG video games for what a lot of these authors played as kids. The whole problem is that Dragon Quest has embedded itself waaaaaay too deep in Japan's cultural psyche. gimme the GOD drat candy posted:average is completely devoid of challenge or meaningful conflict. the mc just casually walks through a world where she is by far the strongest living being. that's not necessarily a bad premise, but i find the execution a bit dull. average is like death march without the pedophilia. The same can be said for a hell of a lot of WNs, and Average stands out specifically because it's one of the few big series that doesn't have any real problematic points like slavery or revenge fantasies or rape or incest. And there are a few difficult situations later on. I read the raws, so I don't know if the translations are up to them yet, but they have started dropping occasional hints about a larger, darker plot. Argue posted:I'm not sure how to feel about this; it's great that it only gets better but I love the struggles to innovate in the first half and how much harder it is for her than for people in other stories of this genre. Also, it's surprisingly educational! I'm currently on chapter 113 and I now know various methods of making ink and also why some kinds of ink corrode paper! For what it's worth, while I loved the papermaking stuff in Part 1, I think on the whole I enjoyed stuff from the later books, after magic starts being a big thing, even more. I would have liked to see them keep it up a bit more, though.
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Oct 14, 2017 11:33
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Thanks for the responses. There's a pretty direct link between skill lists and the tendency to write in ridiculously OP power-fantasy protagonists, that's for sure. The protagonists invariably are the ones who manage to break the system somehow or other. As a way to get across just how OP your protagonist is getting, it certainly works. It's weird that you talk about D&D and early RPGs as potential inspiration for it. I don't know if I'm missing something, but I've never heard of a game with such a varied set of character skills to acquire. Like in Kumo, there's a huge variety of skills being discussed from very early on in the series. When it comes to most games I can think of, you just have the most basic stuff. Thinking about something like Skyrim or Runescape, which have a more defined skill system, it's still very rudimentary compared to what's being presented in LNs. D&D has more, but I don't really feel like any of these games have the same kind of skills as what LN authors are thinking of. But these fantasy authors seem to think it's a given that a fantasy setting could work like that. Is there a specific inspiration they're drawing from?
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Oct 14, 2017 12:18
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Myriad Truths posted:Thanks for the responses. There's a pretty direct link between skill lists and the tendency to write in ridiculously OP power-fantasy protagonists, that's for sure. The protagonists invariably are the ones who manage to break the system somehow or other. As a way to get across just how OP your protagonist is getting, it certainly works. This is why I don't think it's inspired by any specific games; it's just taking a general concept from RPGs (stats and skills) and using it to codify the protagonist's growth relative to other characters.
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Oct 14, 2017 16:34
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I always took it as a byproduct of angry internet nerds spergin' out over the hypothetical "who would win in a fight between..." scenarios. So, when they write their own story, they can put in all the statistics that are lacking in a typical "goku vs. superman" discussion and have objective proof of who should be the winner.
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Oct 14, 2017 17:47
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It's goku, for your information.
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Oct 14, 2017 19:03
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I think it’s just #s and stat blocks are an easy way to meet character counts, then when the stories started being translated, inspired authors just copied them
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Oct 14, 2017 19:15
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Ytlaya posted:This is why I don't think it's inspired by any specific games; it's just taking a general concept from RPGs (stats and skills) and using it to codify the protagonist's growth relative to other characters. It fits very firmly in asian mmo concepts. Your pet has bite 1 until it levels enough to get bite 2. You leveled up and got skill points you can put into skills you have access to. You love the grind so when you max level your class you can start a new class at level 1 with all the growth from your old one saved. I am just waiting for a light novel have them enter a disgaea style item world to level up the item.
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Oct 15, 2017 05:59
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I'd completely missed there was already a trailer for the January anime of Death March: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NzZvYIyb0c Sure looks, uh, pretty. Oh yes. (yes, Rie Takahashi is in the cast)
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Oct 15, 2017 14:56
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darkgray posted:I'd completely missed there was already a trailer for the January anime of Death March: I finally decided to check out Death March even though it looks like something I would not enjoy at all. The story begins with the main character, an extremely plain Japanese boy, committing genocide by accident for no reason. This genocide does not lead to introspection or any character development. It is just an excuse by the author for leveling the character up to OP status. I assume it just gets worse from there.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:22
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You're not missing anything. It's the quintessential average guy (just like you!) and his collection of stray girls easily defeat all challenges novel.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:29
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many of his stray girls are slaves who are totally into being slaves. most of his stray girls are pedo-bait. death march is a story intended to titillate pedophiles.
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Oct 15, 2017 21:45
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So I found something that looks interesting: Cultivating to become a Great Celestial. The summary looks interesting enough, and the reviews draws comparisons with My Disciple. It isn't enormously long, coming in at around 260 chapters, so it's probably a decent read. I'll give a trip report in a week or two.
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Oct 16, 2017 03:33
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Death March is awful AND it's really dry and boring. At least Arifureta has the decency to spike around between some lets have this absurd over the top fight scene to some extremely high amounts of cringe scene, instead of just sitting around with nothing seeming to happen except collecting more girls and having some light drama. I'm mostly reading Average because it's the closest thing I can find to Tilea's Worries the peak of cringe comedy.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:35
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:many of his stray girls are slaves who are totally into being slaves. most of his stray girls are pedo-bait. death march is a story intended to titillate pedophiles. The popularity of stuff like that unironically makes me feel kinda depressed/bad. It's not so much the wish fulfillment stuff by itself, but more the specific nature of the "wish" that is being fulfilled. Like, I totally understand the idea of stories that involve having fun adventures in a fantasy world and having a romance with an attractive girl/guy. Manga (or Western stuff like Harry Potter and other fantasy stories) have always been like this. It's totally fine to enjoy stories that fulfill that "wish." But I genuinely don't understand the appeal of these stories where the protagonist never faces a real challenge and the love interests are all infantilized stereotypes. That isn't fun or interesting, and I don't think I would have liked that sort of thing even when I was a teenager. All this being said, like I think I've mentioned before I actually do find the popularity of this stuff sorta morbidly fascinating. Like, it's interesting to try and put myself in the head of someone who reads and enjoys hundreds of chapters of stuff like this.
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Oct 16, 2017 17:50
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Ytlaya posted:But I genuinely don't understand the appeal of these stories where the protagonist never faces a real challenge and the love interests are all infantilized stereotypes. That isn't fun or interesting, and I don't think I would have liked that sort of thing even when I was a teenager. People want to do things effortlessly and have everything handed to them without trying. I dont think its that shocking, it just manifests in some gross ways sometimes quote:All this being said, like I think I've mentioned before I actually do find the popularity of this stuff sorta morbidly fascinating. Like, it's interesting to try and put myself in the head of someone who reads and enjoys hundreds of chapters of stuff like this. Yea Im the same way. I never got around to it but Ive wanted to read a Gor book for a while just to get a taste. Cant stop staring at trainwrecks, but I guess thats why Im on this site.
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Oct 16, 2017 18:25
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jwang posted:So I found something that looks interesting: Cultivating to become a Great Celestial. The Translator on October 15 posted:TL;DR Version: All the side projects I translate are going on hiatus until I finish PAH [Prodigal Alliance Head, Chapter 104 / 485 translated] 
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Oct 16, 2017 21:22
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Mao Ni, the ZTJ author just started a new story: http://www.novelupdates.com/series/the-path-toward-heaven/ only 2 chapters so far so who knows what's going to happen but it'll be one to keep an eye on. or maybe wait till there are 150 chapters to start reading since his writing is so slowly-paced lol
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Oct 16, 2017 22:15
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PAH sounds pretty bad, from the description.
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Oct 16, 2017 22:45
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jwang posted:So I found something that looks interesting: Cultivating to become a Great Celestial. I read the 34 chapters that were translated and while it was no My Disciple, it was no normal cultivation story either.
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Oct 17, 2017 04:01
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Kumo got another S chapter. Ugh heroes.
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Oct 17, 2017 05:26
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alchemy shenanigans have begun again in a will eternal.
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Oct 18, 2017 01:54
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:alchemy shenanigans have begun again in a will eternal. Have they caught up to the old translation?
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Oct 18, 2017 04:18
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jon joe posted:Have they caught up to the old translation? They passed it some time ago, actually.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:45
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devildragon777 posted:They passed it some time ago, actually. Oh good, I can finally start reading again!
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Oct 18, 2017 14:36
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Meme Emulator posted:Yea Im the same way. I never got around to it but Ive wanted to read a Gor book for a while just to get a taste. Cant stop staring at trainwrecks, but I guess thats why Im on this site. Just want a little taste? Not enough time to read a full book? How about a short story? Houseplants of Gor This is what Gor books looks like. Gor is bad. Don´t read Gor.
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Oct 18, 2017 14:56
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the heat goes wrong posted:Just want a little taste? Not enough time to read a full book? I don’t know what Gor is, but based on that story I can take a few guesses. Now if you’d excuse me, I need to scrub my brain.
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Oct 18, 2017 15:50
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:alchemy shenanigans have begun again in a will eternal. Bai Xiaochun is concocting pills 
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Oct 18, 2017 17:12
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"This place is great! Everyone's an rear end in a top hat, so nobody cares about collateral damage!" 
Sindai fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Oct 18, 2017 |
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Oct 18, 2017 22:18
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