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Blade Runner posted:Sure, but again, the argument vis a vis "If you didn't want a kid, you shouldn't have hosed." equally applies to abortion, so it just doesn't strike me as at all compelling. If you aren't compelled by the argument that people should take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions, then I don't know what to tell you.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:03
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blarzgh posted:If you aren't compelled by the argument that people should take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions, then I don't know what to tell you. If you don't realize this argument can be turned around wholecloth and is very often used to outlaw abortions, I don't know what to tell you. You can't have some people who are responsible for their actions in a specific situation and some who aren't.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:05
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If you're on a forum, and the phrase "I don't know what to tell you" is a standard part of your rhetorical technique, please consider that you are basically admitting you are an inarticulate idiot and using that as a point in favor of your argument. When it isn't, it just means you're limited and can't express yourself despite clearly wanting to. Very odd imo.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:07
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Kelp Me! posted:that's a loving A+ father right there, drat Taking your kid to see a sex worker is definitely not A+ parenting Blade Runner posted:If you don't realize this argument can be turned around wholecloth and is very often used to outlaw abortions, I don't know what to tell you. You can't have some people who are responsible for their actions in a specific situation and some who aren't. The problem with giving men the right to abdicate fiscal responsibility at conception is that 100% of the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy fall on the mother, in every single scenario. If Mom gets an abortion she's the one who has to deal with the fiscal and emotional fallout. Are you going to pass a law that obligates the father to pay for therapy for the mother? Does the unwilling father have to pay for the abortion? If she opts to go through with the pregnancy, from the get-go she is at a disadvantage because she won't be able to initially work, will have limited employment prospects, and be unable to adequately provide for her child. The current regime exists because there isn't any better options. Even if we had widespread abortion access it would still cost money and still come with an emotional toll. Giving men the ability to abdicate parental responsibility at conception would harm a lot of women's lives and only make the lives of lovely men better. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 16:07
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Kelp Me! posted:that's a loving A+ father right there, drat You could argue that by taking him to a prostitute, a profession where Edit: I am not a sex worker. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 16:08
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Ham Sandwiches posted:If you're on a forum, and the phrase "I don't know what to tell you" is a standard part of your rhetorical technique, please consider that you are basically admitting you are an inarticulate idiot and using that as a point in favor of your argument. When it isn't, it just means you're limited and can't express yourself despite clearly wanting to. Very odd imo. Just because you have a boner for arguing on the side of things that are factually wrong and will quickly turn to screeching inarticulately while flailing around about either basic finance or the laws regarding a company's responsibilities to stockholders does not make you an expert on debate, hope that helps
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Oct 16, 2017 16:12
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Who What Now posted:You could argue that by taking him to a prostitute, a profession where we are often literally treated as sex objects, he's doing the exact opposite. he's also normalizing risky sexual behavior, STD rates among sex workers are much higher for obvious reasons. hopefully he wore a condom but teenagers and 20-somethings don't always make good decisions and starting your kid off with prostitutes is likely going to lead to some poor decisions down the road.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:13
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Blade Runner posted:Just because you have a boner for arguing on the side of things that are factually wrong and will quickly turn to screeching inarticulately while flailing around about either basic finance or the laws regarding a company's responsibilities to stockholders does not make you an expert on debate, hope that helps Well, on a forum words are pretty much the only thing people have to try to read and understand your point. If a standard way that you respond to positions you disagree with is to explain that due to some limitation on your end, you can't find the relevant words for the topic, I'd suggest sticking to the few topics where you can successfully get words onto the post so that other people can read and respond to it. That's all.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:14
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Who What Now posted:You could argue that by taking him to a prostitute, a profession where we are often literally treated as sex objects, he's doing the exact opposite. Absolutely, which is why I said that the actual events are of debatable ethics. Also I probably should have split the two comments into 2 posts, the A+ father thing was slightly-less-than-serious. The dad's kind of a dummy but I still think his intentions were solid, something something road to hell though 
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Oct 16, 2017 16:16
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Well, on a forum words are pretty much the only thing people have to try to read and understand your point. If a standard way that you respond to positions you disagree with is to explain that due to some limitation on your end, you can't find the relevant words for the topic, I'd suggest sticking to the few topics where you can successfully get words onto the post so that other people can read and respond to it. That's all. "If a fundamental sticking point to your stake in this argument that you cannot move from is ephemeral in nature and cannot be argued with due to that, I cannot continue arguing with you on the subject" Is not something limited to text. As for Mirthless' thing, yes, I stated that if the man wished to abdicate fiscal responsibility he'd have to go on record offering to pay for an abortion, discuss it with the mother, etc.; though I can admit that I didn't really factor in the emotional toll of an abortion on the mother. All that said, I don't really think a guy is lovely for wanting to have sex without wanting to have kids; if he takes necessary precautions like prophylactics, etc., and it still results in a pregnancy, I honestly don't think he's any fundamentally worse of a person for now being stuck in that situation and not wanting to be there than a mother who wants to get an abortion. Blade Runner fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 16:17
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Mirthless posted:Taking your kid to see a sex worker is definitely not A+ parenting The "kid" is 18. Pretty sex negative take. Mirthless posted:he's also normalizing risky sexual behavior, STD rates among sex workers are much higher for obvious reasons. Oh, and they're dirty sex workers too. Nice! Mirthless posted:The problem with giving men the right to abdicate fiscal responsibility at conception is that 100% of the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy fall on the mother IIRC op was just discussing how they make below minimum wage but will have their wages garnished even further. (OP was not the mother)
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Oct 16, 2017 16:22
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The dad doesn't have the healthiest ideas on how to teach his son the ways of life but at the same time judging by how the mother wrote that post he's at least trying to pry him out of her grasp - she believes an 18 year old man is a literal child whose qualities are getting good grades and being silent. The son's obedience confirms the mother's control over him. That kind of parent-child dynamic is potentially extremely destructive. What the father did was risky and had the potential of being traumatic and I can only hope it was a one-off thing but it seems that the experience was positive for the son.
Palpek fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 16:23
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Ham Sandwiches posted:If you're on a forum, and the phrase "I don't know what to tell you" is a standard part of your rhetorical technique, please consider that you are basically admitting you are an inarticulate idiot and using that as a point in favor of your argument. When it isn't, it just means you're limited and can't express yourself despite clearly wanting to. Very odd imo. Or it means that I recognize from the outset of the discussion that there is a such a wide gap between the positions of the parties that further discussion would be pointless. Blade Runner posted:Just because you have a boner for arguing on the side of things that are factually wrong and will quickly turn to screeching inarticulately while flailing around about either basic finance or the laws regarding a company's responsibilities to stockholders does not make you an expert on debate, hope that helps He was taking a shot at me, not you.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:23
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Blade Runner posted:"If a fundamental sticking point to your stake in this argument that you cannot move from is ephemeral in nature and cannot be argued with due to that, I cannot continue arguing with you on the subject" Is not something limited to text. "It seems that we disagree on X and are unlikely to find common ground" is actionable and useful and leaves the door open for the person asking what you think, the phrase "Oh if you think X then I don't what to tell you" carries the implication is that the position is so outrageous that one can't constructively engage with it and that the exchange is over And to get back to the story, I still really find it odd that at 18 the kid still has a *Dad takes him to a hooker, wink wink don't tell mom* *Kid goes home and tells mom* *Mom thanks him for his honesty* dynamic
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Oct 16, 2017 16:23
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Palpek posted:The dad doesn't have the healthiest ideas on how to teach his son the ways of life but at the same time judging by how the mother wrote that post he's at least trying to pry him out of her grasp - she believes an 18 year old man is a literal child whose qualities are getting good grades and being silent. The son's obedience confirms the mother's control over him. What the father did was extremely risky and had the potential of being traumatic but it seems that the experience was positive for the son. Yeah this is spot on, it's the part that jumps out at me too. Over time I've come to believe that we should teach kids any time they hear the phrase "Thank you for your honesty" they hosed up.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:24
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A high school student is a kid and not a full adult. It's reasonable for the parents of a high school student to have rules and expectations and care about his grades.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:26
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i like nice words
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maskenfreiheit posted:The "kid" is 18. Pretty sex negative take. 18 year olds are still developing mentally, physically, and emotionally. Just because a few laws say they can smoke, vote, and die in wars instigated by the rich doesn't actually make them adults.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:27
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Anne Whateley posted:A high school student is a kid and not a full adult. It's reasonable for the parents of a high school student to have rules and expectations and care about his grades. Still lives at home, still in high school. Turning 18 doesn't make you an adult - for reference, please see all the posts by 37 year old children in this thread.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:28
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Anne Whateley posted:A high school student is a kid and not a full adult. It's reasonable for the parents of a high school student to have rules and expectations and care about his grades. An 18 year old is a lot closer to the "adult" end of the spectrum than the "kid" end of the spectrum, imo Like, the way that other people seem to have authority over you as a teenager because "teenagers don't make good decisions" and "lol 18 still a baby" is genuinely hosed up, or was to me at the time and I'm glad I'm past that period
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Oct 16, 2017 16:29
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Ham Sandwiches posted:If you're on a forum, and the phrase "I don't know what to tell you" is a standard part of your rhetorical technique, please consider that you are basically admitting you are an inarticulate idiot and using that as a point in favor of your argument. When it isn't, it just means you're limited and can't express yourself despite clearly wanting to. Very odd imo. My primary issue when you post like this—and it isn’t all your posts, I’ve liked your recent ones—is not so much about the position you hold, but the arrogance in which you hold it and the arrogance you show to those who do not and who do not phrase their disagreement in the exact way you find acceptable. Sometimes you find it rhetorically insufficient, sometimes you find it insufficiently long, but miraculously you always find something that allows you to write off another poster as “white noise”. — The subject of “dealing with the consequences” is different here imo because we’re drawing the line at the baby existing as a separate physical entity outside the mother’s womb. At that point the woman also has no more right to abdicate responsibility than the man. In principle both men and women have the right (or should at least) to terminate their role in the reproductive process at any point before it is finished. The simple biological fact is that because the woman does 90% of the work, she has more opportunities to abort the process. What I think we mostly agreed on last time is child support should come from the state rather than through the parents but until such time as that system exists, this is what we’ve got. — Am I [30F] over-reacting to how my BF [30M]'s brother [26M] treated me? quote:I visited my boyfriend's family for the first time and am still not sure what to make of how his younger brother treated me or rather how his younger brother didn't talk to me for the whole visit. Congratulations on the new relationship Pick but let the boy watch his anime video games.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:29
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maskenfreiheit posted:The "kid" is 18. Pretty sex negative take.  The incidence of STDs among sex workers is a factual matter and one of the unique challenges sex workers face, and a lot of it has to do with the way they are treated as objects and commodities by men who think their money entitles them to not use protection. You are transparently misogynist in both this thread and the weinstein thread and the way you use terms like this is disgusting. You're literally making serious women's issues into a joke to deflect criticism. gently caress off.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:33
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Blade Runner posted:If you don't realize this argument can be turned around wholecloth and is very often used to outlaw abortions, I don't know what to tell you. You can't have some people who are responsible for their actions in a specific situation and some who aren't. So you think that young men should bear no responsibility for pregnancy prevention because to expect them to take responsibility for their actions later somehow could be construed as an argument against abortion? He had an opportunity to prevent this situation by wearing a condom or not having sex. Condoms nearly always work, and usually when they don't it is because you did not use them correctly. They certainly work better than used properly than does relying on an 18 year old to remember to take her pill at around the sometime every day without fail. He does not get to exercise control over someone else's body later because unprotected sex sounded better at the time he was getting off. Maybe it is a little unfair that women get a second chance to prevent a baby and men don't but since it is her body, it's her call. You don't get a pass on being a shithead because you once said you don't want a baby. There are no magic words to remove your legal and moral responsibility for an action you are about to take. The kid is also stating he will dodge child support by working under the table, and also thinks he will get off with $200/mo in child support. He's a deadbeat. He is not required to have a relationship with the child, but he is still a shithead if that is the choice he makes. In most circumstances, the words "I am going to dump my pregnant girlfriend" mean you are a dirtbag. More so if those words are followed by asking how little you can legally do for her and the child. therobit fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 16:34
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Ham Sandwiches posted:An 18 year old is a lot closer to the "adult" end of the spectrum than the "kid" end of the spectrum, imo This is true, and plenty of 18 year olds have matured enough by that age to be called adults; Taking your child to a sex worker is not, however, a shortcut to leapfrogging that final and crucial stage of maturity, and might instill in him the kind of perceptions that hold back his development when it comes to relationships, sex, and women.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:36
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Ham Sandwiches posted:An 18 year old is a lot closer to the "adult" end of the spectrum than the "kid" end of the spectrum, imo Yes, that's true, and why 18 year olds are allowed more responsibility and autonomy, but the majority of them still needs lots of support and guidance in their development so that they dont get hosed up at the last minute. Like, say, by taking them to see a prostitute and potentially teaching them that women are things to be bought and sold instead of treated like people. quote:Like, the way that other people seem to have authority over you as a teenager because "teenagers don't make good decisions" and "lol 18 still a baby" is genuinely hosed up, or was to me at the time and I'm glad I'm past that period lol, I bet you made tons of stupid decisions, just like every other teen everywhere ever.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:37
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blarzgh posted:Or it means that I recognize from the outset of the discussion that there is a such a wide gap between the positions of the parties that further discussion would be pointless. I know, but that's a thing that still strikes me as dumb enough to pipe up about. fruit on the bottom posted:My primary issue when you post like this—and it isn’t all your posts, I’ve liked your recent ones—is not so much about the position you hold, but the arrogance in which you hold it and the arrogance you show to those who do not and who do not phrase their disagreement in the exact way you find acceptable. Sometimes you find it rhetorically insufficient, sometimes you find it insufficiently long, but miraculously you always find something that allows you to write off another poster as “white noise”. "Someone refused to talk to me much even though I wanted them to. Internet please help." Really, I can see it being awkward, but geeze lady. It's not a big deal.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:39
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Mirthless posted:This is true, and plenty of 18 year olds have matured enough by that age to be called adults; Taking your child to a sex worker is not, however, a shortcut to leapfrogging that final and crucial stage of maturity, and might instill in him the kind of perceptions that hold back his development when it comes to relationships, sex, and women. I think that's a reasonable stance. I will say that in this story there seems to be an element of the mother seeing the 18 year old son as a kid even at 18, and the way the post is written the treatment seems consistent with that. It may have been a misguided attempt on the father to bring the son past a tangible milestone - no longer a virgin, been with a woman, no longer a child. In the hopes that it would be something the mother couldn't ignore, a milestone that might have been reached a little gamily but still reached. So when I saw the reaction was "go to your room while I yell at your father" and then "Thank you for your honesty" it just makes me cringe, especially thinking about the part where the son volunteered the info for approval.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:41
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Weird how most parents prefer to recognize milestones like high school graduation, moving out of the family home, supporting oneself
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Oct 16, 2017 16:42
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That mom is also loving up the kid in her own way, yeah.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:42
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Ham Sandwiches posted:no longer a virgin, been with a woman, no longer a child. This is pretty much the definition of toxic masculinity
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Oct 16, 2017 16:49
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It's just that none of the extremes are good. From the mother's own description of her son (and you can bet she's painting him in a way more positive light than he really is) he's a socially inept shut-in and the mother's control over her son is a huge contribution to that. Unless he breaks out of it on his own (unlikely considering his obedience) he runs a big risk of going on a bad psychological spiral. I agree that jumping into the adult stuff the way his father did is not healthy either which I stated in my post but it's just that what that woman wrote raised a lot of red flags. In a better scenario his dad would help his son be more independent in a non-hosed up way.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:52
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It may have been a misguided attempt on the father to bring the son past a tangible milestone - no longer a virgin, been with a woman, no longer a child. In the hopes that it would be something the mother couldn't ignore, a milestone that might have been reached a little gamily but still reached. No matter what your position on prostitution is, i feel like making the first, and defining experience of a young man's sexual life a night with someone that was paid to sleep with him will do more harm than good.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:53
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You know, morality of hiring sex workers aside, the dad managing that poor kid's sex life for him is way, way more overbearing and intrusive than mommy sending him to his room.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:54
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blarzgh posted:No matter what your position on prostitution is, i feel like making the first, and defining experience of a young man's sexual life a night with someone that was paid to sleep with him will do more harm than good. At the very least it's probably going to give him some hosed up expectations about what dinner and a movie should "buy"
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Oct 16, 2017 16:57
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Mirthless posted:This is pretty much the definition of toxic masculinity I understand the perspective here is the "ahh Men Must gently caress to be Men; toxic" angle, that's not really what I'm going for. Just the observation that there's a generally handful of events that sometimes make people reassess how they treat their children and that the father may have hoped this would be one of those for the mother.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:57
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The dad didn't even want the mom to know about it, so no
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Oct 16, 2017 16:59
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Palpek posted:It's just that none of the extremes are good. From the mother's own description of her son (and you can bet she's painting him in a way more positive light than he really is) he's a socially inept shut-in and the mother's control over her son is a huge contribution to that. Unless he breaks out of it on his own (unlikely considering his obedience) he runs a big risk of going on a bad psychological spiral. I agree that jumping into the adult stuff the way his father did is not healthy either which I stated in my post but it's just that what that woman wrote raised a lot of red flags. In a better scenario his dad would help his son be more independent in a non-hosed up way. Yeah this is the second agreedo for me. I feel this is an accurate summary of my take as well.
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Oct 16, 2017 17:02
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Mirthless posted:This is pretty much the definition of toxic masculinity I mean sure, the getting laid usually comes with a serious (at the time) relationship. And sure, getting paid usually just quells insecurities and lets you see that people doing this work aren't hyper productive Those two things were certainly big events in my twenties that transformed my life significantly. The big takeaways were sex isn't that big of a deal or awkward at all. My relationship imploded for a reason that would make Pick say "all men": I was in grad school and stressed as gently caress, but I was too dumb to realize I had to put effort into and schedule time for relationships if I wanted them to succeed. Working is good and academia is bad is another big takeaway, but that's too long of a post for this thread. Anyhow, don't take your son to a prostitute. It won't solve the problem. Even if he's an incel. Khorne fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 17:05
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Clark Nova posted:You know, morality of hiring sex workers aside, the dad managing that poor kid's sex life for him is way, way more overbearing and intrusive than mommy sending him to his room. I had considered this, but yeah, that's absolutely true.
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Oct 16, 2017 17:10
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Khorne posted:Many a young man's views on life and themselves have been changed by getting laid and getting paid. Getting into a relationship with somebody and having sex can be a growing experience, but virginity isn't a switch you flip to go from NOT MAN >>> MAN and the perception that it is is absolutely toxic I grew up a lot when I got into a serious relationship and started getting meaningful work but those things came organically*, they weren't provided to me by a parent and purchased with money or influence. The kind of people who rely on their parents to provide them with character building opportunities are never going to know what it means to grasp those things for themselves. * and, as a matter of fact, those things eventually came specifically because my parents left me alone and stopped hounding me to grow up and become a man
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Oct 16, 2017 17:10
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Mirthless posted:Getting into a relationship with somebody and having sex can be a growing experience, but virginity isn't a switch you flip to go from NOT MAN >>> MAN and the perception that it is is absolutely toxic Another big realization was that my parents were wrong about almost everything when it came to finances, careers, and business. The amount of times I was goaded into going into academia by someone who dropped out of community college after 1 year is insane. To this day they won't stop talking about the "college lifestyle" and how it's "so much better than the private sector". I just went to grad school because I had no idea what to do for work and stuck with what I knew: taking courses and learning. Khorne fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 16, 2017 |
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Oct 16, 2017 17:12
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