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I also had zero sympathy for the creepy probably paedo teacher. Was this something that happened IRL or was it made up for the show? Hard to understand from a modern perspective. But I guess in the 70s nobody cared about people like Roman Polanski and Jimmy Savile actually raping children so even less people would care about a bit of tickling.
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Oct 23, 2017 13:22
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Douglas mentions the tickling principal in the book, and he does lose his job, but it’s an aside and he doesn’t really give much detail beyond that.
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Oct 23, 2017 15:13
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marktheando posted:Hard to understand from a modern perspective. But I guess in the 70s nobody cared about people like Roman Polanski and Jimmy Savile actually raping children so even less people would care about a bit of tickling. Modern perspective does tells us it's creepy and gross, but there's still way too many parents out there who think it's fine to force their kids into getting hugged and kissed on by older relatives
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Oct 23, 2017 15:20
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It's more of a device to show how the public at large isn't suspicious in the same way we are now and also how Holden is letting the paranoia from his work infect his interactions everywhere. The show could've easily resolved whether the guy was or wasn't molesting kids, and either prove Holden is right or wrong, but it leaves it ambiguous in order to reinforce his growing suspicious nature.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:05
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This show was so frustrating. The pilot is probably the worst thing I've seen on television all year, but the second episode is one of the best. Everything after that was somewhere in between. The positives: every conversation with killers, especially Kemper, was highly compelling. Holt McCallany is awesome. The cinematography was consistently good. But I have so many complaints, too: -Every scene with Debbie was unbearable. No human has ever talked this way, and it's not like her dialogue is heavily stylized. It's just outright bad. Also, they resolved her appearing to cheat on Holden off screen. Holden just walks into a laundromat and then they're together again. Granted, the conversation would have been terrible, but still. Their opening scene together makes me think Joe Penhall has never had a flirtatious conversation in his life. -Dumb subplots that seem to go nowhere beyond making some kind of point. The Tickler was just baffling and ridiculous, especially when his wife showed up in that bizarre scene where she refuses to the let the elevator doors close behind her for some reason. And what was with the mystery cat in Wendy's apartment? That was a complete waste of time. We'll see about BTK but I'm not a fan of building this up for a whole season, especially if that's not the focus of season 2. -The Debbie dialogue was extra bad but really the dialogue in general was largely awful outside of the interviews. It really made this show feel like a hacky network procedural with cursing and nudity. -Holden himself is a really irritating character and not in a cool antihero way. He's just smug and annoying, and he talks like The Onion's Autistic Reporter sometimes. Hopefully his panic attack changes things next season. -The music cues were so on the nose! Psycho Killer, are you loving kidding me?! Overall I like the show and will definitely watch but the near universal praise from viewers is befuddling to me. Don't know how critics are taking it but I've been enjoying and largely agreeing with the A/V Club episode reviews (though the pre-air review that gave it a B+ based on the first two and had high praise for that awful pilot was dumb). And one more minor thing: Holden makes Gary listen to the Toolbox Murderers, but those guys didn't go on their spree until 1979, two years after this season takes place. The point is clear though--those guys were more hosed up and sadistic than anyone we did see. Read through their Wikipedia page at your own peril.
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Oct 23, 2017 16:31
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My read of the cat/laundromat scenes are that they are showing Wendy's loneliness after choosing the FBI over her lover. She wants to make friends with and then probably adopt the cat so she has some company which is why she's so disappointed that she never gets to see it. And then as mentioned a page or two ago the ant filled cat food can could suggest the cat was killed by a serial killer in the making.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:43
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I kept thinking a human hand was gonna grab the tuna
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Oct 23, 2017 20:47
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Henchman of Santa posted:I kept thinking a human hand was gonna grab the tuna Same and I'm glad it didn't happen.
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Oct 23, 2017 20:50
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I'll defend the use of "Psycho Killer", sure it's "on the nose" but I don't view that as a de facto cinema sin.
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Oct 23, 2017 21:18
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Yeah I did a heh and then listened to that good rear end song.
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Oct 23, 2017 21:19
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I really liked the elevator thing
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Oct 23, 2017 21:31
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precision posted:I'll defend the use of "Psycho Killer", sure it's "on the nose" but I don't view that as a de facto cinema sin. In the show's defense it was a song leading up to the credits. It's not like it was a montage of serial killers doing dirt and Holden catching them. Henchman of Santa posted:-Holden himself is a really irritating character and not in a cool antihero way. He's just smug and annoying, and he talks like The Onion's Autistic Reporter sometimes. Hopefully his panic attack changes things next season. For some reason all modern media has to show all smart men and some women as autistic. They turned Alan Turing from an athletic affable genius into a hateful nerd. Dmitri-9 fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 21:37
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Dmitri-9 posted:In the show's defense it was a song leading up to the credits. It's not like it was a montage of serial killers doing dirt and Holden catching them. Also, all of this: quote:When it was finally completed and released as a single in December 1977, "Psycho Killer" became instantly associated in popular culture with the contemporaneous Son of Sam serial killings.[10][11] Although the band always insisted that the song had no inspiration from the notorious events, the single's release date was "eerily timely"[9] and marked by a "macabre synchronicity".[11] So you can see why it made sense for lots of reasons to use that song.
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Oct 23, 2017 22:44
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TheBizzness posted:And then as mentioned a page or two ago the ant filled cat food can could suggest the cat was killed by a serial killer in the making. My reading is that she's thinking this, regardless of the reality. A tension of the season is that these characters are so immersed in this world, it's tinting their vision and pushing them to see violence and dysfunction everywhere. In all probability, some stray cat was hanging around for a bit and then went somewhere else, or was hit by a car, or was taken to a shelter. But the team is so conditioned to seeing the worst, they see it even in scenarios where it doesn't apply. The cool part about these scenes to me are how they're shot and edited. It's a horror film; Wendy is scantily clad, entering a frame composed like a killer's POV. The formal language of it is such that you're prepared for someone to jump out at her any second. Which is something Zodiac also does: when Graysmith goes to the old projectionist's house to look through posters, the scene is shot and cut to elicit thriller tension as if the projectionist is the killer, but the reality is just Graysmith's paranoia. It's good poo poo.
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Oct 23, 2017 23:03
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Xealot posted:But the team is so conditioned to seeing the worst, they see it even in scenarios where it doesn't apply. The show is doing this to the viewer as well. Like telling you about Holdern's mother embarrassing him and his jealousy of his girlfriend hanging out with another guy. Things we've already been told in the show are possible signs of deviant/suspicious behavior. Or even with Tench's son, who is probably just withdrawn and perhaps even spooked about his dad because like any kid he went through his dad's stuff but found something horrifying.
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Oct 23, 2017 23:12
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Henchman of Santa posted:And one more minor thing: Holden makes Gary listen to the Toolbox Murderers, but those guys didn't go on their spree until 1979, two years after this season takes place. The point is clear though--those guys were more hosed up and sadistic than anyone we did see. Read through their Wikipedia page at your own peril. one of the detectives who listened to it killed himself years later. i wish i had never read the transcript.
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Oct 24, 2017 00:30
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I'm surprised to see so much Debbie hate. I think people are maybe mistaking the actress's choice to play sort of understated/deadpan with bad acting.
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Oct 24, 2017 00:37
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I liked Debbie herself, but a lot of the interactions between her and Holt were written noticeably worse than the rest of the show, especially the first few episodes. Golly gee, you're smoking marijuana?!
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Oct 24, 2017 00:40
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clown shoes posted:I'm surprised to see so much Debbie hate. I think people are maybe mistaking the actress's choice to play sort of understated/deadpan with bad acting. Meryl Streep wouldn't be able to deliver her lines
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Oct 24, 2017 01:00
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i would find the personal life stuff uninteresting either way. even if it was well written i wouldn't care.
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Oct 24, 2017 01:13
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I thought it was intentionally awkward cos Holden is such a huge fuckin sperg
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Oct 24, 2017 02:20
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I'm only on episode 3, but Tench says that an old woman and another dog got killed in Carver and Holden gets excited about it so I'm guessing Holden is a psychopath.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:28
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He's excited because it means they can take the case again/redeem themselves after getting in trouble iirc
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Oct 24, 2017 06:41
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But also, yes.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:49
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Well, yeah.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:55
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Yeah it's clear in hindsight now. There have been a dozen scenes up till now where Holden is being a robot and can't deal with normal people on a normal level and Tench has to course-correct him.
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Oct 24, 2017 07:58
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Did anyone else feel Holden didn't really seem all that interesting/smart ? In my viewing experience he always merely parrots the last person he spoke to. After visiting the killers , he's clearly charmed and believes everyone immediately, Tench (correctly?) chastising him for it. Yet it seems to keep happening, up until the hospital confrontation, by which time he should know better I think. Maybe it wasn't intended as such, but he comes across as too naive to have been succesful in law enforcement.
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Oct 24, 2017 11:17
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I feel like Holden started out interesting and probably smart, but by the end of the season he was rather annoying, yeah.
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Oct 24, 2017 12:17
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Holden's obsession with Kemper was super annoying but I think it was intentional for the payoff at the end of the season
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Oct 24, 2017 12:27
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Train Surgeon posted:Maybe it wasn't intended as such, but he comes across as too naive to have been succesful in law enforcement. Yeah he had several head scratchers that made me wonder how he became an FBI agent. The way he carried himself and spoke also came across more like someone working in marketing than law enforcement. Maybe I just see too much of Groff's character from Looking in Ford.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:01
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Comparison between Kemper in the show and his irl interviews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDYBmNYc8IA
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Oct 24, 2017 15:19
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It just occured to me that Ed Kemper is more eloquent than the President of the United States. The show was okay, but I expected something a bit more FBI investiganting, Silence of the Lambs kind of stuff. I didn't know what it was based on. Now, most of the actual investigations (like the Benji case) and the interviews were amazing, but too many other things left me totally cold. Material for 5 good episodes of TV, stretched out to 10.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:25
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zoux posted:Comparison between Kemper in the show and his irl interviews. loving eerie. sicDaniel posted:It just occured to me that Ed Kemper is more eloquent than the President of the United States. While this might be particularly sad right now, I think it's probably been true of even some "good" Presidents. Serial killers are so dangerous usually because they're so smart.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:57
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zoux posted:Comparison between Kemper in the show and his irl interviews. I feel like TV Ed Kemper is being played with a slightly more dopey voice. Maybe so that you get lulled into thinking he's dopey and then being more surprised when you realize how cognizant he is.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:09
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precision posted:While this might be particularly sad right now, I think it's probably been true of even some "good" Presidents. Serial killers are so dangerous usually because they're so smart. most are not smart.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:27
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Steve Yun posted:I feel like TV Ed Kemper is being played with a slightly more dopey voice. Maybe so that you get lulled into thinking he's dopey and then being more surprised when you realize how cognizant he is. I dunno if I'd say dopier but TV Kemper is definitely creepier and more affected than irl Kemper. His mustache is creepier as well. But it's neat how they are able to use his words almost verbatim and create such a chilling and unsettling character on the screen.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:most are not smart. Serial killers or presidents? 
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Oct 24, 2017 21:19
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heh. i meant serial killers. the vast majority are of average or sub average intelligence. ed kemper is the only one off the top of my head that had/had a genius level intellect and even he had menial jobs like the dennis raders and gary ridgeways. dennis rader got caught because he believed the cops when they said a computer diskette wasn't traceable. zoux posted:I dunno if I'd say dopier but TV Kemper is definitely creepier and more affected than irl Kemper. His mustache is creepier as well. But it's neat how they are able to use his words almost verbatim and create such a chilling and unsettling character on the screen. i think by "dopier" he means tv kemper has a thicker accent which is true.
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Oct 24, 2017 21:57
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Mob posted:Modern perspective does tells us it's creepy and gross, but there's still way too many parents out there who think it's fine to force their kids into getting hugged and kissed on by older relatives How does that compare at all with a man tickling the feet of children not related to him (and who are under his authority) and not seeing why it's such a big deal?
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Oct 26, 2017 00:55
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Just finished the first season. Loved it. Any book readers wanna confirm for me Douglas didn't exhibit any signs of psychopathy and they invented the character of Holden so that they could develop this trait in the story, right? I love it. I love that this is turning into the Jack Crawford and Will Graham Prequel Show. I know that Thomas Harris' characters were loosely based on Douglas but stuff that Harris invented for Red Dragon is reverse-seeping into the character of Holden Ford.  Good poo poo. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 08:31
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