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Charles_Kinbote posted:(if you've read Kierkegaard, you'll notice how the Machine Cult segment is an inversion of Kierkegaardian philosophy, as well as a commentary on the Japanese belief that we all become Buddhas after death). Feel free to skip this poo poo if you don't care about how philosophy colors the actions of Stubbies. Which honestly, you shouldn't. To build on this supposition, let us establish the necessary points. I'll use Fear and Trembling as the basis, as it's his most commonly referenced work. To begin, we must decide the purpose of the machines both on and off the network. On, they purely exist to serve its will. Off, they are purposeless, and must find a purpose - possessed of free will. As they are now beings of free will, faith is now an option for them. Faith is, in this sense, the ability to act according to the will of a higher power without hesitation or doubt. Important to this is the idea that faith is a necessary step after establishing a total resignation from material concerns. Here, we are given a second important element to how free will and Kierkegaardian faith is only possible in off-network machines: while on the network, it can be inferred that death is essentially meaningless to an individual machine, as anything that makes a unique individual can be preserved. Accordingly, this ultimate abandonment of the material world is impossible because no on-network machine could be truly gone - there is always a possibility of a network restore, although the material with Adam & Eve may be read as contradictory to this due to their deaths. However, for the purpose of this, it is purely an aside. Let us consider the philosophical argument in terms of an individual. We now have our Abraham-figure in the character of an adorable Kierkegaardian Stubby. We shall call him Johannes, because it seems appropriate. In his first trip to the factory, Johannes is connected to the network. He fights a pissed-off 2B and dies horribly. Is this faith? No, because while his will is sublimated to the divine, he lacks any agency - a silent cell in a greater organism. In his second trip, he has disconnected from the network, and he fights 2B to defend himself, dying horribly yet again. Here is where intent enters the picture - as he still sees a value in self, there is no faith. In his third trip, he is disconnected. He fights and kills 2B somehow, likely via stunlock. His actions are in accordance with the will of the network, but has done nothing to further his desire to die in combat. His disposability - an essential aspect - is removed by this, and he is thus no closer to faith by the fact that his intentions cannot be discerned from defense - is he fighting for the network, or to stay alive?Also, they'll just send another 2B, so he has merely delayed his death, showing that he still values the material world. Fourth trip. No network. He recognizes death as the goal, but hides from his fellows. The opportunity for faith is there, but rejected for the material. Final trip - and what actually happens. No network. He runs fearandtrembling.exe, sees his role in the network, and dies, trusting that it is truly the will of the greater being, who as far as I can tell is some shirtless dude in leather pants with sick-rear end tats. With his actions, he becomes a Knight of Faith, abandoning his own desires for what he believes to be a higher will. There is choice, abandonment of the material world, and a defined purpose. It is not an inversion of Kierkegaard, but instead a worldview that seems insane to the outside viewer, which is basically how Kierkegaard lays out faith. So, in this reading of the material, poor Johannes - forever without a voice and condemned to bullshit videogame analysis - has died a Knight of Faith, following a philosophy that happens to have a rather tragic outcome given his original role in the great war machine.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:06
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so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you?
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Oct 24, 2017 04:07
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Carlosologist posted:so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you? Anything made by this director, yes.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:09
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Carlosologist posted:so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you? There's a reason  is an emote. Also, you should probably read some of TDI's other LPs. Knowing what happened in the first Nier isn't required to understand this game but it helps. Plus they're fun to read. Drakengard is also relevant to this game, though in very minor ways.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:25
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It is often harder for the stabbed than the stabber.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:27
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I played N:A before realizing it was a sequel and shotgunned the Drakengard 1, Nier, and Drakengard 3 LPs in that order before settling in to popcorn this LP live. There's something to be said for a blind playthrough, but knowing what's come before definitely lends itself to "oh gently caress" moments that flew over your head the first time around.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:29
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really queer Christmas posted:
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Oct 24, 2017 04:31
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: Analysis: Losing a toobie is a hard thing to deal with
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Carlosologist posted:so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you? We have such sights to show you
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Oct 24, 2017 04:35
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I played N:A before realizing it was a sequel and shotgunned the Drakengard 1, Nier, and Drakengard 3 LPs in that order before settling in to popcorn this LP live. There's something to be said for a blind playthrough, but knowing what's come before definitely lends itself to "oh gently caress" moments that flew over your head the first time around. Probably the most interesting is when I missed one reference (because it quickly moves in and out in a cutscene) so when the comes back even harder, all the pieces slammed together at once and my response was "ooooOOOHH SHHEEET!!  "EDIT: as for TDI recommendations, I say go check out the absolute nadir: Limbo of the Lost.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:40
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I played N:A before realizing it was a sequel and shotgunned the Drakengard 1, Nier, and Drakengard 3 LPs in that order before settling in to popcorn this LP live. There's something to be said for a blind playthrough, but knowing what's come before definitely lends itself to "oh gently caress" moments that flew over your head the first time around. Since it was the most recent game before this, is Drakengard 3's plot actually relevant to Automata in any fashion (I know Nier and the original sort of are at least)?
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Oct 24, 2017 04:40
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Larryb posted:Since it was the most recent game before this, is Drakengard 3's plot actually relevant to Automata in any fashion (I know Nier and the original sort of are at least)? There's a reason why a couple of posters raised an eyebrow to the Machine Lifeform's use of flower metaphors.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:43
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Larryb posted:Since it was the most recent game before this, is Drakengard 3's plot actually relevant to Automata in any fashion (I know Nier and the original sort of are at least)? The weapon merchant in the resistance camp makes a single reference to a character from Drakengard 3 who is a trans-dimensional weapon-selling android. That's it.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:45
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ZiegeDame posted:The weapon merchant in the resistance camp makes a single reference to a character from Drakengard 3 who is a trans-dimensional weapon-selling android. That's it. I think it says something about this series that that little detail is a "yeah, whatever man" moment.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:46
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D3 establishes every route ending from A-Z are all canonical
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Oct 24, 2017 04:48
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Larryb posted:Since it was the most recent game before this, is Drakengard 3's plot actually relevant to Automata in any fashion (I know Nier and the original sort of are at least)? Minor references from the drakengard games really. Most of the references or plot beat nuances are going to come from the original nier.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:48
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Billzasilver posted:D3 establishes every route ending from A-Z are all canonical Nier 3 takes off from the cut ending where you just hang out with Adam for a while without attacking, then leave the ruins with him and go back to the city. Unfortunately, the first time he tries out this human 'eating' thing it's a mackerel.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:50
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 https://twitter.com/redmakuzawa/status/922615688522428416
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Oct 24, 2017 04:52
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Carlosologist posted:so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you? I kinda feel the Drakengard games do a better job of this whole rug pulling thing, myself.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:54
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God, I loving want that.
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Oct 24, 2017 04:58
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Blind Sally posted:I kinda feel the Drakengard games do a better job of this whole rug pulling thing, myself. Yeah, but this is better at being a good game, so it evens out.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:06
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InfinityComplex posted:God, I loving **** that.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:06
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VolticSurge posted:Yeah, but this is better at being a good game, so it evens out. I'd argue that being able to relate to this game's main characters as opposed to being in more fearful awe of Caim's bloodthirstiness or having to wait for the better part of the game to understand Zero's motives makes it much better at what's about to happen. 9S is this awkward dork that you bash on a bit but he clearly doesn't deserve the poo poo he's going through at all...unlike Caim or Zero who (let's be fair here) have karma catch up to them one way or another.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:10
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Once I saw that title, I knew this poo poo was gonna happen.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:12
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Nier is the universe where you 0lay as Protagonists Drakengard is the universe where you play as antagonists
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Oct 24, 2017 05:13
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I started playing Agents of Mayhem this week. If Saint’s Row is Drakengard, then that game is Nier.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:14
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Nier is shades of grey, while Drakengard is mostly red.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:16
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Pretty sure the shades in NieR were mostly black and yellow.
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Oct 24, 2017 05:21
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HR12345 posted:I started playing Agents of Mayhem this week. If Saint’s Row is Drakengard, then that game is Nier. You take that back, Nier is actually a GOOD spinoff!
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Oct 24, 2017 05:33
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Zoe posted:e: oh and finally got around to ordering the game earlier today. I doubt I'll play it much because I'm traditionally terrible at combat of all kinds but wanted to support the game even though Yoko Taro is a bastard who just tore out my heart. Just play the game on easy. It's pretty modular in how it plays, you can assign chips to take care of the stuff you can't handle or don't understand and still have fun. And knowing that Id is taking care of all the sidequests means you can refer to this LP instead of dicking around trying to find junk like all the endings, which can take the stress out of thinking you're missing stuff. I mean, if one of the top speedrunners for this game can only use one hand and still beat it repeatedly, then I'm sure you could manage once. Carlosologist posted:so, I have yet to read any other of Id's LPs but holy loving poo poo whaaaaaaat the hell just happened!!! are the rest like this, where the rug just gets pulled out from underneath you? Here's the Drakengard LP Here's the original Nier LP Here's the Drakengard 3 LP And yeah, each game has at least one moment where the rug gets pulled and poo poo hits the fan. Personally, my favourite is still Nier, even above this game. The music, the story, the setting, the characters, everything but the gameplay is a cut above the sequel, and even then, the gameplay shifts paying tributes to other games helps a lot. I wish we had more text adventures or resident evil mansions with diablo dungeons underneath instead of more shump stages...
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Oct 24, 2017 05:42
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I don't think any game in gaming has ever pulled off the sheer level of rug-pullery that Drakengard 1 did, and no other game ever will.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:02
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SirPhoebos posted:There's a reason why a couple of posters raised an eyebrow to the Machine Lifeform's use of flower metaphors. To be quite honest, I feel like the game's plot is more interesting without horrors from another dimension coming in just to gently caress things up. A force of constant antagonism willing everything to go to poo poo forever is kind of cliche compared to this weird robots-building-robots-building-morality thing we've got going on right now.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:23
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So... the next time we see 9S, is he going to have the Watcher emblem smeared across his face? Wait, no, don't answer that. 
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Oct 24, 2017 06:35
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Hedningen posted:I went through the Kierkegaardian stuff, and I can't see it as an inversion of his philosophy. Interpreting their actions through Fear and Trembling, the action of death to achieve a more divine state is entirely within Kierkegaardian existentialism as could be interpreted through the machine worldview, as it is essentially bowing to the inherently disposable nature of the machines within the network and fulfilling the higher purpose after all material notions are abandoned. I've hijacked this thread enough. However, I disagree on Kierkegaard's knight of faith here. Note that Kierkegaard points out the immense loneliness of his paladin, and that these knights act as individuals, not toward group congregation. The machines collectively forming a death cult is anathema to Kierkegaard's concept of a knight of faith. But when I talk about Kierkegaardian inversion (80% of the time the machines don't understand the philosophers they're named after), I'm referring to Sickness Unto Death, the forms of despair, and how the machines, in choosing death, are rejecting their finitude for their infinitude and thus violating Kierkegaard's schema.
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Oct 24, 2017 06:44
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hail satan
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Oct 24, 2017 07:03
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Blind Sally posted:I kinda feel the Drakengard games do a better job of this whole rug pulling thing, myself. Discussing solely DG1/3 vs Nier and Nier:A to the current point, I think they have similar levels of rug pulling but DG goes more for the generally literally inexplicable god-fucks from beyond time and space, whereas Nier's twists are more mundane and personal, at least within their own worldbuilding (and sometimes more of a gut-punch for that reason alone). Ultimately I think whatever the first Yoko Taro game you were first exposed to is going to be the one that sticks with you the most twist-wise; after the second one it turns into "well I'm expecting a twist now, even if I have no idea where it's going to come from, literally nothing I see in the first 1/2-3/4ths of the game should be taken at face value".
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Oct 24, 2017 07:20
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Yoko Taro never stops. Killing your extremely well loved advertising lead and dropping the greatest late title card in gaming history? That's just a monday for Yoko Taro.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:13
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 Should've put Pod 153 in the second panel. really queer Christmas posted:
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Oct 24, 2017 08:23
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Yoko Taro writes in reverse. He starts with a tragic moment and then reverse-engineers the conditions that will maximize the emotional impact on the audience. When 2B calls 9S "Nines", it is a direct callback to at least two prior conversations (the rollercoaster ride and forest castle) between the characters. A topic that seemed relatively innocuous at the time ended up being used to stick the knife further in when 2B ends up biting the dust. Don't ever get too attached to a character in a Yoko Taro game. Sympathetic characters are created in order for bad things to happen to them.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:49
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Consider this: 2B at the start of the game seems strangely attached to 9S despite only just having met, and she's clearly affected when 9S doesn't remember her after the battle. Combine that with her comment about how "it always ends like this". I bet 2B is the one who came up with the "Nines" nickname in the first place. She's just reluctant to use it with a 9S who clearly doesn't remember that fact.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:55
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Now I'm wondering what the pod will do. Clearly they have their own AI and can make a certain level of choices, but I don't know if that includes potentially choosing to switch owners, unless the thing about 2B's memories was on the literal side and she passed on access to a bunch of stuff.JT Jag posted:I can't help but feel that 2B died for nothing. She didn't have to send 9S away like that. If they'd landed together, he could have treated her immediately. Logically, sure, but 2B has never really followed that whole "emotions are prohibited" thing and she's just lost almost literally everyone she knows and cares about. I cut her some slack for shoving 9S out of there once she noticed the gameplay signs of invincible, leading-into-a-cutscene enemies. The Dark Id posted:I’m seen my wife and kid play this game
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Oct 24, 2017 09:10
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