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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Reinhardt's only had bugfixes, I think, and I don't remember any gameplay changes to Hanzo although I might be forgetting something. Also if we're not counting PTR beta testing I think Sombra is still the same as she's ever been? Hanzo has had his arrow hitboxes hosed with, his arrow velocity changed, and the charge time on the arrows decreased by 10%. Also, he can now store a charged arrow while climbing. Sombra has had her cooldowns decreased.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:58
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FaustianQ posted:Hanzo has had his arrow hitboxes hosed lol jesus how could i forget
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Oct 24, 2017 19:59
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FaustianQ posted:Didn't the initial expectation of Doomfist as dive fall away when it became apparent he was super vulnerable and it was better for Doomfist to just peel Tracers and Genjis off supports? Tanks are supposed to either negate damage or provide cover either through shielding or a threat radius around them, Doomfist has such a threat radius but lacks any ability to mitigate damage for his team. that's literally not what he does and giving him symmetra shields would not change that and no, doomfist killed dive immediately when he was released. then he was nerfed and sucked
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Oct 24, 2017 20:00
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FaustianQ posted:Hanzo has had his arrow hitboxes hosed with, his arrow velocity changed, and the charge time on the arrows decreased by 10%. Also, he can now store a charged arrow while climbing. Those were good times. When they made the hitbox fit the arrow for like, one beta patch before reverting it back to invisible redwood trees that headshot at the feet.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:09
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Manatee Cannon posted:that's literally not what he does and giving him symmetra shields would not change that Except Doomfist is entirely about his threat radius? How are you going to say that Doomfist can and did kill dive but then say he provides no protection to supports or teammates? It's not Symmetra shields, it's categorically inferior to them. They decay, they require Doomfist actually land his attacks, requires him to land multiple attacks to be really effective and he's not providing them if he's not active. Like I know ye olde Genji terrifies people but getting 30 shields per hit while the provider of said shields needs to be in constant danger is just not comparable to Syms old "E and forget".
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Oct 24, 2017 20:12
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I don't know if Doomfist really would have killed dive, but he was an interesting and difficult matchup for the flankers until suddenly he wasn't.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:13
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Manatee Cannon posted:that's literally not what he does and giving him symmetra shields would not change that Goddamn I miss making Genji's rage quit after punching them into a wall for the tenth time.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:20
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FaustianQ posted:Except Doomfist is entirely about his threat radius? How are you going to say that Doomfist can and did kill dive but then say he provides no protection to supports or teammates? doomfist does not radiate a threat radius around his team to discourage you from attacking because his punch takes him away from his team. his kit is the antithesis of tanking because he doesn't tank damage, his abilities remove him from his own team, and his survivability is in the gutter. just because he can oneshot doesn't mean he works like roadhog. do you think widowmaker or hanzo should be tanks too? and no, if he gave his whole team 30 shields for every ability then he'd be way stronger than even beta symmetra, who was legit broken and had to be nerfed. but either way, that's not a tank role. you're conflating shields with shield health and those are incredibly different things that don't have any overlap outside of the word 'shield'
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Oct 24, 2017 20:25
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Manatee Cannon posted:doomfist does not radiate a threat radius around his team to discourage you from attacking because his punch takes him away from his team. his kit is the antithesis of tanking because he doesn't tank damage, his abilities remove him from his own team, and his survivability is in the gutter. just because he can oneshot doesn't mean he works like roadhog. do you think widowmaker or hanzo should be tanks too? What? If you using Doomfist to peel off flankers he Rocket Punch and Seismic slam are categorically providing a threat radius, and if used on such targets would mean Doomfist would remain next to his team, Rocket Punching someone 20m is the full extent of his range but it's not it's defining use, nor is it something you should usually be targeting, aiming for at most 10m is better because Seismic Slam allows an easy return if you do over extend. Like, how often do you use Doomfist in a nonsuicidal manner? Like, Symmetra's ability was a static +75 on someones health that took no effort or maintenance to provide, regenerated on it's own, and didn't require Symmetra to put herself in a threatening position to use with exactly zero counter play besides killing Symmetra as soon as she spawned. No, it does not provide protection from CC, so what?
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Oct 24, 2017 20:40
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Doomfist was good against dive since he had strong matchup vs the usual dive heroes, and when staying with the deathball, he would provide more of a safe zone for your supports and prevent them from being dived by, well... punching the divers in the face.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:56
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really though, being able to aim his punch anywhere would go a long way to making him good and not overpowered
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Oct 24, 2017 21:00
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FaustianQ posted:What? If you using Doomfist to peel off flankers he Rocket Punch and Seismic slam are categorically providing a threat radius, and if used on such targets would mean Doomfist would remain next to his team, Rocket Punching someone 20m is the full extent of his range but it's not it's defining use, nor is it something you should usually be targeting, aiming for at most 10m is better because Seismic Slam allows an easy return if you do over extend. Like, how often do you use Doomfist in a nonsuicidal manner? doomfist dying a lot isn't a matter of over extending or w/e; that's just how he works. check winstonlab, he's got the second highest mortality rate of any hero in pro games. overbuff doesn't let you compare this stuff, but you can check average deaths per hero individually and doomfist leads the pack at just over 12 (most die 8-10 times per match by comparison). if you're not jumping in for a punch (and this will kill you a lot. often the best you can hope for is a good trade), you're playing the hero wrong I really don't know how to convince you that doomfist as a tank is dumb at this point. try playing him as one and see how it goes for you
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Oct 24, 2017 21:21
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Manatee Cannon posted:doomfist dying a lot isn't a matter of over extending or w/e; that's just how he works. check winstonlab, he's got the second highest mortality rate of any hero in pro games. overbuff doesn't let you compare this stuff, but you can check average deaths per hero individually and doomfist leads the pack at just over 12 (most die 8-10 times per match by comparison). if you're not jumping in for a punch (and this will kill you a lot. often the best you can hope for is a good trade), you're playing the hero wrong It's pretty dumb to use Doomfist to dive with though. Yes, he can dive in and trade if he gets lucky but that's a really dumb use of him when he's better suited to sit inside a deathball, and when doing that he ends up playing more like a tank than a DPS. Like just because Rein can delete someone with Charge doesn't mean he should really be charging all that often. My point wasn't that Doomfist is 100% ready to be a tank now, as is, rather that he'd be fairly easy to transition into a tank with select buffs, and he is the easiest DPS for it to be done to. Like, in my original post FaustianQ posted:Doomfist could easily provide protection to his team if his shields were also applied to his team, not just himself. Have 30 shields applied for Doomfist on move start up, have 30 shields applied for Doomfist and team when they connect. He'd still be an offtank but he'd naturally synergize with Dive. Not saying it's a good idea, but it's also not impossible to make Doomfist's gameplay syngerize with being a tank. I dunno, maybe we're talking past each other and I'm talking about an idealized state for Doomfist while you're saying that because his kit sucks now he should just thought in the context of a suicide bomber. EmpyreanFlux fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 21:32
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Montalvo posted:Ever since this current event kicked off I feel like I've been playing worse and worse. What do you all generally do when you feel like you're in a funk like this? Take up a new hero, or just put the game down for a while? I think part of the problem is that I feel like I'm mostly logging on to grind lootboxes and playing only halfheartedly. Break time! Try Destiny 2 if you wanna spare the 60 bux or whatever.
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Oct 24, 2017 21:35
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doomfist doesnt need to be a tank lmao. he just needs to have more useful mobility. whoever suggested making right click work in any direction including aerials and making seismic slam work better was on the right track. getting right click kills with doomfist shouldn't be the focus, it should be something you use to punish sloppy positioning or cooldown usage like a rein charge. make his mobility and his other abilities better now that his right click sucks rear end.
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Oct 24, 2017 21:38
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Minrad posted:Break time! Try Destiny 2 if you wanna spare the 60 bux or whatever. I'm thinking a rerun of Bloodborne, or maybe a semi-serious attempt to improve in Rocket League.
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Oct 24, 2017 21:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Reinhardt's only had bugfixes, I think, and I don't remember any gameplay changes to Hanzo although I might be forgetting something. It was a few patches ago but hanzos arrow charge rate was buffed and he got the ability to wall climb with a fully charged arrow E;fb by a shitload
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Oct 24, 2017 21:53
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Montalvo posted:I'm thinking a rerun of Bloodborne, or maybe a semi-serious attempt to improve in Rocket League. play more Bloodborne
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Oct 24, 2017 22:00
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Minrad posted:doomfist doesnt need to be a tank lmao. he just needs to have more useful mobility. whoever suggested making right click work in any direction including aerials and making seismic slam work better was on the right track. getting right click kills with doomfist shouldn't be the focus, it should be something you use to punish sloppy positioning or cooldown usage like a rein charge. make his mobility and his other abilities better now that his right click sucks rear end. Uppercut moves higher, stuns on hit, and resets on kill. Seismic Slam to 4s cooldown, ramps up twice as fast, no bugged interaction with Uppercut. Rocket Punch to 8s cooldown, moves in any direction, more generous hitbox. Hand Cannon projectile speed increased, faster reload time. Meteor Strike casting time decreased.
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Oct 24, 2017 22:07
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BizarroAzrael posted:Zarya is good against Genji with practice, especially at lower tiers where they don't realize they can't deflect her beam. Get a headset and bellow "POWEEEER!!" when your energy goes past 90%. I'm so bad at aiming her beam because it's so precise trying to aim it at a tiny little airborne ninja from japan
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Oct 24, 2017 22:12
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Dizz posted:I'm so bad at aiming her beam because it's so precise trying to aim it at a tiny little airborne ninja from japan This actually gets better as you just play against genji's. Most genji players move the sameway so instead of trying to track them on screen, i just do what I think they'll do and most of the time its almost like they're following me.
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Oct 24, 2017 22:31
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dogstile posted:This actually gets better as you just play against genji's. Most genji players move the sameway so instead of trying to track them on screen, i just do what I think they'll do and most of the time its almost like they're following me. Every character is like this, and it's one of the subtle advantages of having a large pool of heroes you play. I'm a mediocre support player on a good day, but I can often solo Tracers of comparable rank because I know exactly how Tracers move.
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Oct 24, 2017 22:40
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Manatee Cannon posted:doomfist does not radiate a threat radius around his team to discourage you from attacking because his punch takes him away from his team. his kit is the antithesis of tanking because he doesn't tank damage, his abilities remove him from his own team, and his survivability is in the gutter. So, like, did you just kind of forget Winston existed while writing this or what
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Oct 24, 2017 22:58
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winston has a shield
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Oct 24, 2017 23:08
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2226 ranking "Symmetra is so fuckin OP" am i insane?
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Oct 24, 2017 23:15
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Manatee Cannon posted:winston has a shield I mean sure, but in the post I quoted you say that tanks need to either radiate threat around their team (which Winston doesn't have the damage to do), soak damage (which Winston doesn't have the health to do), have abilities that benefit their team (using winston's shield to cover your team means you're not using it to pounce on somebody, also it only has 300hp so good luck with that), or have good survivability (Winston dies extremely easily). By your own criteria Winston essentially isn't a tank. And to be fair he's a lovely tank in the traditional sense of the term, but that doesn't make him any less fantastic an initiator.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:27
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winston's job is to make the enemy team look the wrong way while exposed to your team as hes killing their healer. don't initiate before the fight begins
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Oct 24, 2017 23:29
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winston has the same health as reinhardt and the shield (which has 600 health, not 300) boosts his ability to survive by a lot. his ult also gives him 1000 hp. winston is good at surviving and that's why he's used to stall the point in pro matches he fits my criteria just fine and the only thing even remotely similar to doomfist that he has is the ability to leap forward. they play nothing alike
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Oct 24, 2017 23:34
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losing lots of games because nobody can aim, including me
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Oct 24, 2017 23:40
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i decided to do my placements today before end of season and i got stomped by a gm 3-stack in one game and got yelled at by a top 500 player for not healing him enough in another. comp, never change (4W/6L, placed at 3786, previous season high of 3790)
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Oct 24, 2017 23:44
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Wrist Watch posted:I mean sure, but in the post I quoted you say that tanks need to either radiate threat around their team (which Winston doesn't have the damage to do), soak damage (which Winston doesn't have the health to do), have abilities that benefit their team (using winston's shield to cover your team means you're not using it to pounce on somebody, also it only has 300hp so good luck with that), or have good survivability (Winston dies extremely easily). By your own criteria Winston essentially isn't a tank. Winston definitely creates threat. He's a force multiplier though, which is why so many people sleep on him. Dumb to say "he's not as good as x" based on that alone, because force multipliers, by their nature, aren't strong alone.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:45
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dogstile posted:Winston definitely creates threat. He's a force multiplier though, which is why so many people sleep on him. Dumb to say "he's not as good as x" based on that alone, because force multipliers, by their nature, aren't strong alone. I mean, the context of the post I was quoting in talking about radiating threat around their team kind of gave me the impression that he meant individual tanks doing so on their own which is why I didn't mention anything about that. Was that not the case?
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Oct 25, 2017 00:16
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I mean my main point had nothing to do with tanks providing threat radius or w/e in the first place. that was the guy I was talking to's point and I was explaining why doomfist does not fit that mold what I said about him being the antithesis of a tank does not apply to winston tho unless you want to focus on his leap to the exclusion of everything else
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Oct 25, 2017 00:25
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Fair enough!
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Oct 25, 2017 00:27
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Winston radiates threat simply by being near people. His damage is low but it's constant, auto-aiming, barrier-ignoring DoT, so simply by existing in proximity to you Winston forces a decision about where you move, what you focus on, etc. Doomfist is, or was, more like old-school Roadhog in that the threat he radiates is based off a cooldown, and once that cooldown is expended he becomes much less threatening and you have an opportunity to collapse on him and turn the tables. Unlike Roadhog, Doomfist is forced to put himself in a disadvantaged position rather than forcing someone else out of position.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:27
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if you think about it, doomfist's ult encapsulates his entire kit really well you can use it one of two ways: either to deal a ton of damage and hopefully instantly kill someone, or to run the gently caress away. and if you do it wrong or drop in the wrong spot, you're gonna die even if you did get a kill with it
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Oct 25, 2017 00:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:what happens if you filter those stats to grandmaster only He still has the highest winrate in the game, 3.18% above the average GM character. The gap between him and Sym/Torb actually closes significantly. In platinum, Junkrat is +2.7%, while Symmetra is +11%. In GM, Junkrat is +3.18%, while Symmetra is +3.22% I've also been over this about a hundred times, but defense biased characters see an increase in their winrates due to the way Overwatch counts win-loss, you spend more time on defense in wins and more time on offense in losses. Dick Burglar posted:Don't use winrates as your sole metric for how powerful a character is. Mercy also has something approaching a 75-80% winrate in non-mirror matches. She's stupidly broken. Also, what metric do you propose? Tuxedo Catfish posted:looking at Overbuff it looks like Tracer is in the bottom 8 heroes in the game by winrate... and Lucio's in the bottom 6 Lucio is pretty middle of the pack but he's being suppressed hugely by Mercy/Zenyatta right now. Tracer is a character who mostly shines at very very high skill ratings-- she's very strong in pro play, but below average almost everywhere else. I am relatively sure that the sample is close to representative, if not actually a population. (136,000+ players in S5) Tuxedo Catfish posted:You know, setting Junkrat aside for a second, I'm curious now how much of the GM winrate numbers for heroes in that data set diverge from the average winrate of GM players in general -- given the likelihood that they're playing against Masters some significant portion of the time. The average winrate for a GM player in that sample is 54.83%, while the overall average is 50.66%. Its a little above 50 because of the weird way that OW counts draws. It's not a perfect data set, but I have spent a lot of effort doing my due diligence to make it as viable as possible.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:43
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e: Nevermind, this didn't say anything that wasn't already implicit in my original question.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 00:45
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Please don't nerf my main man Junkrat
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Oct 25, 2017 00:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't just mean in that data set, I mean "how great is the difference between that (limited, self-selecting) data set and reality?" The datasets that I use/Overbuff surfaces aren't just the players who visit Overbuff, they're off of a weird backend blizzard hosted website that surfaces players career profiles, and should be for the entire Americas server.
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Oct 25, 2017 00:58
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