Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

«‹›1216 »

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

It was also really damned effective. I mean, no so much that it could operate independently without support like you see later, but still a real power on the battlefield. Check out the 16th century Moroccan invasion of Songhay to see what happens when an early black powder army pairs off with what was essentially a late medieval army.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:09

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 2, 2024 13:20

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Or maybe these guns were not poo poo but in the context of their times actually decently effective weapons of war.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:10

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

HEY GAIL posted:

I'm trying to make a graph to compare the pay of pikemen, halberdiers, and musketeers. I want to convey this:

pikemen make the most money on average, and some pikemen make a whole lot more money than other pikemen. Pike pay varies widely.

halberdiers make a medium amount of money on average, and a few of them make a whole lot more money than other halberdiers, there're a few outliers but not as many as pikemen

not only do musketeers make the least amount of money, but their pay varies the least; there are few to no outlier highly payed musketeers

Is a boxplot with whiskers the best way to do this, or what? Because if I only take the averages, that'll make average pike pay look too high, as well as obscuring the interesting outliers. (if most of them make 8 to 10 gulden a month but one dude makes 20...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_plot

What's going on is that we're witnessing the birth of what will by the 1640s start being an NCO system, just nobody calls it that and I don't think it's formalized so the only way to monitor these people is through their pay. Some pikemen and halberdiers just have a whole lot of experience and probably social status, so people pay them more. Some of these guys make more than mid-level company officers.

In this way, my chapter on payment will also be a chapter on the internal social order of a German mercenary company in the 20s.

how were halberdiers used on a battlefield- mixed in with pike blocks?

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:16

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Siivola posted:

How did we ever get into blackpowder warfare if arquebuses were such poo poo, anyway? I mean, both Japan and Europe developed pike and shot tactics independently of each other and then rocked face with them, what gives?

It's poo poo by modern standards, but at the time they were better than anything else available for the kinds of war they were fighting. If nothing else, softening up the enemy pike before it engaged yours gave you a significant edge. And a musketeer unit could badly maul an enemy unit that stayed put when under fire, so putting one in the right position could force the opponent into making some kind of response, which could open the way for your cavalry, or draw them into overextending their lines, or so on and so forth. They lacked the accuracy and speed to reliably break an attacking force, but that's why they were used in conjunction with pike. The key was the system it was embedded in - the commanders who kicked rear end with pike and shot took the capabilities of each and developed a way to make the combination more than the sum of its parts.

It's not that the arquebus was useless, it's that what made it useful wasn't heavily influenced by how good a shot an individual musketeer was.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:23

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

but you can't use them while transporting your army so really, who's the real winner here

StashAugustine posted:

how were halberdiers used on a battlefield- mixed in with pike blocks?

they must be in among the pike SOMEHOW, but i dunno how precisely. the ratio of pike:halberd:musket in a saxon company is 80:20:200

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:25

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

HEY GAIL posted:

but you can't use them while transporting your army so really, who's the real winner here

they must be in among the pike SOMEHOW, but i dunno how precisely. the ratio of pike:halberd:musket in a saxon company is 80:20:200

Covering the flanks maybe? It's the one advantage the halberd would really have in a pike block, being able to turn around and fend off an enemy that popped up in your flank or rear when the block was facing the other way, giving the unit time to form a square or turn to meet the threat.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:30

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Except that Oda Nobunaga would split off his most accurate gunners into a separate independent unit because he was an idiot I guess.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:33

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Fangz posted:

Except that Oda Nobunaga would split off his most accurate gunners into a separate independent unit because he was an idiot I guess.

More of a big fool, really. :v:

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:38

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Fangz posted:

Another thought: People present 'only 50% hit at 100 yards!' as 'oh my, muskets are inaccurate and ineffective', but that's by modern standards. If you get all your musketeers to shoot the enemy, and half of those shots hit, then you've just won the battle.

Also lol if people think that we have a 50% hit rate nowadays. More bullets just made people more trigger happy.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:43

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

OwlFancier posted:

Also lol if people think that we have a 50% hit rate nowadays. More bullets just made people more trigger happy.

if sixteen shots a day was good enough for montecuccoli, it's good enough for me

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:46

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

HEY GAIL posted:

if sixteen shots a day was good enough for montecuccoli, it's good enough for me

Slightly better performance than three hundred years later, even.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 19:50

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Siivola posted:

How did we ever get into blackpowder warfare if arquebuses were such poo poo, anyway? I mean, both Japan and Europe developed pike and shot tactics independently of each other and then rocked face with them, what gives?

Shot from arquebuses very likely ruins your day if you get hit, unlike arrows and slingshot. Wearing armor, you might get unlucky and catch one in the face or in the armpit, but at least there's a better chance that your armor can resist. Check out "Notes on arrow wounds" from 1862 or so, where one doc took notes about arrow wounds, where people were struck how often and if they died. Turns out that getting hit in the abdomen is a guaranteed kill. With breastplates and helmets you take care of the most sensible parts, and the rest is treatable to a good degree.

Once you bring firearms into the equation, these stop being reliable protection. They're also loving loud. When I was in Poland, one of these drunk guys who looked like a Klingon from TOS loaded one of the small field pieces there and fired it.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:05

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

I'm not trying to hit him, I'm trying to suppress him. :smuggo:

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:08

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Reconnaissance by fire!

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:12

JcDent: May 13, 2013; Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

If you took an M4 and fired it at musket range at a stationary man sized target, you'd probably have more than 50% accuracy.

However, M4s are more often used at about 300 meters or so with the intention of pinning the enemy long enough for artillery to fall on their head.

I think it's not fair to compare a musket to an assault rifle or lovely primitive arquebuses to peak performance muskets 200 years later. Both the qualities of the weapon and their use have changed over the years.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:26

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

I need a little help, thread: How close is this, both in the opening remarks and the reprinted article, to wehrabooism?

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:30

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Nebakenezzer posted:

I need a little help, thread: How close is this, both in the opening remarks and the reprinted article, to wehrabooism?

quote:

Also odd to consider, and equally true: Germany in its current form won�t see a Bicentennial. Forty percent of five-year-olds in Germany have a �migrant background�. Ten percent of the country is African or Middle Eastern today, a figure that will more than double in the next ten years and then double again in the decade following. The new Germans are overwhelmingly young and male. It�s not a migration so much as it is an invasion by brute force, and one that will have longer-lasting consequences than William the Conqueror�s trip across the Channel. By the time my son is my age, Germany will be Islamic and any vestiges of its two-thousand-plus-year ethnic past will be of concern chiefly to the historians among us.

uh...

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:31

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

quote:

By the time my son is my age, Germany will be Islamic and any vestiges of its two-thousand-plus-year ethnic past will be of concern chiefly to the historians among us.

Hahaha

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:31

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

JcDent posted:

If you took an M4 and fired it at musket range at a stationary man sized target, you'd probably have more than 50% accuracy.

By spec, it should hit pretty much every time barring a malfunction (assuming you have mounted to a bench).

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:32

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

my dad posted:

uh...

lol

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:34

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Nebakenezzer posted:

I need a little help, thread: How close is this, both in the opening remarks and the reprinted article, to wehrabooism?

That's some pure strain stuff right there.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:36

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Fangz posted:

Hahaha

German is currently about 5% Muslim so that's quiet a demo shift in a decade or two. And all due to political correctness

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:38

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Comrade Gorbash posted:

It's the one advantage the halberd would really have in a pike block

dude

dude

a halberd is a beautiful weapon. they step inside your reach and pin your pike to the ground, push it aside, all sorts of things. they are useful as heck.

edit: now what you do if someone's trying to do that to you is to work your way towards the middle of the pike and fight with it from there. If you run you can work your way all the way up, hold it in the crook of one arm, and elbow him with your other arm.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:38

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

HEY GAIL posted:

dude

dude

a halberd is a beautiful weapon. they step inside your reach and pin your pike to the ground, push it aside, all sorts of things. they are useful as heck.

edit: now what you do if someone's trying to do that to you is to work your way towards the middle of the pike and fight with it from there. If you run you can work your way all the way up, hold it in the crook of one arm, and elbow him with your other arm.

I fired that one off too quick, I meant to say the key advantage of having them mixed into the block, mea culpa. Fair point though, they'd be drat good at exploiting any gaps that got poked into the enemy unit as well. A little mobile reserve embedded right into the formation.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:45

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

they're also handy enough to use indoors

when i think about it i wonder if they're the perfect all-around weapon, if it's the 17th century

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:51

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

HEY GAIL posted:

dude

dude

a halberd is a beautiful weapon. they step inside your reach and pin your pike to the ground, push it aside, all sorts of things. they are useful as heck.

edit: now what you do if someone's trying to do that to you is to work your way towards the middle of the pike and fight with it from there. If you run you can work your way all the way up, hold it in the crook of one arm, and elbow him with your other arm.

"I have a spear, and I like my spear, but I wish my spear had options."

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:53

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

HEY GAIL posted:

they're also handy enough to use indoors

when i think about it i wonder if they're the perfect all-around weapon, if it's the 17th century

I can't think of anything better. Solid against cavalry too, and useful shipboard. The boarding axes the Royal Navy was using into the 19th century were essentially halberds.

# ? Oct 26, 2017 20:57