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It was really hard in school because the campus ministry was pretty conservative but the Theology department was pretty liberal. I was highly involved in both, and I wouldn't be half the Christian I am today were it not for the guidance, care, and challenges I got from them. But it's like I told my advisor one day, I don't know if I'm a Hans Kung or a Joseph Ratzinger. I see people on social media calling Fr. James Martin a "dangerous" priest and I'm just like, what in the world are you talking about? I have people in my church who say that my beliefs literally amount to murder and others who say my beliefs are erroneous and that I am guilty of the sin of omission by not constantly telling certain people in my life that they are "leading a life of sin." I just hate that feeling that I am an imposter to my Church, that if people knew my thoughts I would find myself without a community. I know this is probably a neurosis that goes beyond theological differences, but whenever this topic comes up it opens the wound a bit.
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Oct 26, 2017 08:18
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ironically it's been people from "conservative" countries that have been the most chill with me, serbs (at church) and turks (in my social life). when ever i get poo poo it's from a white German, a Dutch person, or (in one case) the Swedish government.
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Oct 26, 2017 08:25
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I just hate that feeling that I am an imposter to my Church, that if people knew my thoughts I would find myself without a community. I know this is probably a neurosis that goes beyond theological differences, but whenever this topic comes up it opens the wound a bit. I know it's often well-meaning but dishonest to say to someone that I know how they feel, but I really do think I can relate to this one. I'm in a position of some publicity and responsibility in our parish and often in need of thinking how things in my life look. It's a fine line between maintaining an unnecessary facade and simply presenting a face that lets other people live without being bothered by my personal problems or shortcomings. I don't know if I'm expressing what I wish to communicate but I hope I get my meaning across. I'm fairly certain that everyone is an imposter to their Church and most would be without community if our thoughts and secrets were known. Scarily, God already knows it all. Thankfully, He did something about that and through Jesus every imposter gets to stay connected. The wound keeps opening (I also have one that probably doesn't heal, related to how I struggle trusting that I'm allowed to fail though let's not get into that now) but it possibly helps that you remember that it's just the wound that amplifies the feeling. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 08:44
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HEY GAIL posted:or (in one case) the Swedish government. Oh I gotta hear this!
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Oct 26, 2017 08:53
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Tias posted:Oh I gotta hear this!
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Oct 26, 2017 08:56
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HEY GAIL posted:i was banned from a commemorative event relating to the Battle of Luetzen. This is especially Ironic because it's you know. Sweden. Yeah, they're like the non-stupid version of Denmark( DONT QUOTE ME), so I was surprised to hear it
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Oct 26, 2017 08:57
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Tias posted:the non-stupid version of Denmark( DONT QUOTE ME), i have talked about this with forums poster my dad and our theory was that there are a few wealthy white self-satisfied countries whose inhabitants think they're so "advanced" already that they don't have to do anything personally. The Dutch are the worst at this, a Dutch guy insulted me once to my face in Dutch--the little rear end in a top hat forgot that every word out of his mouth had a German cognate so I knew what he was saying.
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Oct 26, 2017 09:00
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If it helps the English can be included. I know we don't get as much use in the 30 years war, but we are making up for it by being dickheads now!
Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 09:04
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Josef bugman posted:If it helps the English can be included. I know we don't get as much use in the 30 years war, but we are making up for it by being dickheads now! HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 09:24
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Tias posted:Unless I misread you, you tentacly thingies are seraphim, the saints and their quite normal stylings can be seen below. My mistake. Seraphim look like eldritch horrors.
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Oct 26, 2017 09:29
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Re: this thread, I'd love to see if we got more new faces and opinions (!) in here. We're just as likely to end up an inane hugbox/echo chamber as everywhere else on the internet, so mixing it up is not only welcome, but vital if we want to keep this thread interesting imo. Otoh we've got here what is one of the probably extremely few places online where lgbt+ people with an interest in liturgical Christianity (or hell, just religion in general) can talk about stuff in peace. Therefore it is imperative that we - and that goes for *all* of us - talk to each other respectfully and with curiosity and open-mindedness for the experiences and thoughts for the others. This thread has failed in this regard before (unsurprisingly, since we're all human), and at times it even got somewhat toxic, and not just because "conservatives" or whatever decided to poo poo it up. I'm not lgbt, so I can't really speak for those who are (but then who can, really?), but I think we should strive to keep the tone civil and give a good answer when somebody wants to talk about the conflict between sexuality and church dogma with us in a proper and respectful tone - this thread can only suffer when one or both sides at the issue immediately go into FULL OUTRAGE mode for no reason. Though we also need to keep in mind that you cannot convince everyone of your beliefs, and in some or even many cases it's okay to go into a discussion with the knowledge that the best you will get out of it is an "agree to disagree". There will always be people with different opinions than you, and this alone doesn't constitute an insult. So, for those that lament about the thread being "too lgbt driven" or whatever: be the change you want to see! Believe it or not, you can discuss liturgical rubrics/funny hats/monks with bears even with people you would strongly disagree with on other subjects! And to the rest of us: trying to keep this thread welcoming and interesting to others is definitely something we should all strive for. Peace  (Little anecdote about how I absolutely don't want this thread to develop: just the other day I was checking my Facebook feed and in one of the Christian/liturgical groups I'm following someone posted about how their Episcopal parish saw its average attendance rise by 50% after they introduced traditional Anglo-Catholic liturgy. Everything was cool & good, but alas! they had made the capital mistake of not throwing their women servers out of the church along with everything else! And instead of simply congratulating them on a good decision or respectfully asking how they reconcile "traditional liturgy" with "women in a liturgical function", some people simply flipped their poo poo and hit the all caps button with the speed of light. One of them wouldn't shut up about "the oneness and fullness of traditional catholic liturgy and traditional catholic doctrine", and when he was asked how he (as a Lutheran) managed to reconcile his love for traditional liturgy with his church's position against transsubstantian or the apostolic succession, the answer was a heartfelt "mumble mumble... *logs off*"  But seriously, don't be like that dude, no matter what the issue at hand is)Interesting facts tax: The Greek Orthodox Archbishops of Cyprus managed to invent and develop the tradition of the Byzantine Emperor Zeno granting them various "imperial privileges" as a reaction to Ottoman and Western European colonial forces occupying the island, both in order to assert themselves against the occupiers as the true representatives of the Cypriote people and to increase their standing with them. They still retain these privileges to this day and you can even find the old Zeno tale repeated on Wikipedia, which a part of me thinks is    Archbishop Chrysostomos II showcasing two of those three privileges
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Oct 26, 2017 09:46
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System Metternich posted:their Episcopal parish saw its average attendance rise by 50% after they introduced traditional Anglo-Catholic liturgy. quote:One of them wouldn't shut up about "the oneness and fullness of traditional catholic liturgy and traditional catholic doctrine", and when he was asked how he (as a Lutheran) managed to reconcile his love for traditional liturgy with his church's position against transsubstantian or the apostolic succession Edit: quote:Otoh we've got here what is one of the probably extremely few places online where lgbt+ people with an interest in liturgical Christianity (or hell, just religion in general) can talk about stuff in peace. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 09:51
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HEY GAIL posted:Luther himself was pro-transubstantiation though. What happened? As far as I know, many Lutherans still are. From what I've seen online, and you should take it with a grain of salt, obviously, they have to resort to using Catholic teaching on the validity of sacraments to mitigate the fact that the priest may not believe in transubstantiation while performing the sacrament.
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Oct 26, 2017 10:17
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Caufman posted:My mistake. Angels own, in general. It's assuring that the cuirass-wearing whiteys we see in modern art are an afterthought meant to conceal the fact that they look like loving wheel golems with millions of eyes whose faces are like lightning to behold 
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Oct 26, 2017 10:31
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Today I learned a little about lakotaka -- thinking like a Lakota, a huge part of which is respecting elders. Turns out it's a good thing to shut up and listen when an older person wants to tell you a story. It might be meandering but anyone with decades more lived experience than you probably has some profound insights and you would do well to be patient and hear them out.Paladinus posted:As far as I know, many Lutherans still are. From what I've seen online, and you should take it with a grain of salt, obviously, they have to resort to using Catholic teaching on the validity of sacraments to mitigate the fact that the priest may not believe in transubstantiation while performing the sacrament. Well, "official" Lutheran doctrine holds to consubstantiation which is different from transubstantiation because the Pope is a flatulent donkey or something. The consecrated bread and wine aren't literally, physically the blood and body of Christ but metaphysically they are indeed. Basically Lutherans are down with the Real Presence, Christ exists in the Eucharist not just symbolically or metaphorically. I dunno I'm bad at theology.
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Oct 26, 2017 10:34
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Pellisworth posted:Well, "official" Lutheran doctrine holds to consubstantiation which is different from transubstantiation because the Pope is a flatulent donkey or something. The consecrated bread and wine aren't literally, physically the blood and body of Christ but metaphysically they are indeed. I don't know how badly I'm butchering the idea but I've always figured out that we Lutherans just say that Christ is really present in that bread and wine and that the details are not really important or even ultimately understandable by us.
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Oct 26, 2017 11:13
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Valiantman posted:I don't know how badly I'm butchering the idea but I've always figured out that we Lutherans just say that Christ is really present in that bread and wine and that the details are not really important or even ultimately understandable by us.
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Oct 26, 2017 11:17
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Tias posted:Angels own, in general. It's assuring that the cuirass-wearing whiteys we see in modern art are an afterthought meant to conceal the fact that they look like loving wheel golems with millions of eyes whose faces are like lightning to behold I liked Christopher Lloyd, though. He was very disarming as an angel. System Metternich posted:Re: this thread, I'd love to see if we got more new faces and opinions (!) in here. We're just as likely to end up an inane hugbox/echo chamber as everywhere else on the internet, so mixing it up is not only welcome, but vital if we want to keep this thread interesting imo. Otoh we've got here what is one of the probably extremely few places online where lgbt+ people with an interest in liturgical Christianity (or hell, just religion in general) can talk about stuff in peace. Therefore it is imperative that we - and that goes for *all* of us - talk to each other respectfully and with curiosity and open-mindedness for the experiences and thoughts for the others. This thread has failed in this regard before (unsurprisingly, since we're all human), and at times it even got somewhat toxic, and not just because "conservatives" or whatever decided to poo poo it up. I'm not lgbt, so I can't really speak for those who are (but then who can, really?), but I think we should strive to keep the tone civil and give a good answer when somebody wants to talk about the conflict between sexuality and church dogma with us in a proper and respectful tone - this thread can only suffer when one or both sides at the issue immediately go into FULL OUTRAGE mode for no reason. Though we also need to keep in mind that you cannot convince everyone of your beliefs, and in some or even many cases it's okay to go into a discussion with the knowledge that the best you will get out of it is an "agree to disagree". There will always be people with different opinions than you, and this alone doesn't constitute an insult. This is indeed a special place, and so it's natural to want to protect it and to see it grow, or even make a difference. I've joked about this, but I do seriously think about the disunity over sexual morality. As best as I can tell, there are sexually immoral things to do, and sexually immoral things that I do, but I honestly cannot say that I witness any deficiency in love if the only variable we're looking at is the genders of the partners. I am aware of what's written in our shared Christian scriptures, but I'm also aware that in those scriptures are stories of norms changing as the times and situation changes, all still under the plan of God.
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Oct 26, 2017 12:35
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HEY GAIL posted:
to be fair, "internet X" where X is any ideology are always loving awful also as a student of the 30YW you should know better than to trust the perfidious swede
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Oct 26, 2017 14:41
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also pellisworth: https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/10/01/black-elk-lakota-medicine-man-turned-catholic-teacher-promoted-sainthood
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Oct 26, 2017 14:44
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StashAugustine posted:you should know better than to trust the perfidious swede My ears are burning! Honestly hey gail kinda hit the nail on the head up there. I guess every culture has its own set of problems, "I can't be a bigot, I'm Swedish" is definitely a big one for us.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:08
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Valiantman posted:I don't know how badly I'm butchering the idea but I've always figured out that we Lutherans just say that Christ is really present in that bread and wine and that the details are not really important or even ultimately understandable by us. Yeah, Luther didn't have any doctrinal problems with a physical Real Presence in the Eucharist. What he did have a problem with was what he though was excessive veneration given to the Body and Blood of Christ by the Catholics. For example, only allowing the laity to drink the Blood of Christ with a fistula or not allowing them to receive it at all during Mass, or elevating the Body of Christ for an extended period of time after speaking the words of consecration (in the middle ages people used to fight over the best seats to watch the elevation and would bribe the priest in order to make him elevate it in the air longer.) But he also defended Eucharistic Adoration and said that veneration of the Body and Blood of Christ was a matter of conscious for the believer; if you wanted to treat it with the greatest respect it was cool, and if you didn't that was also cool. As opposed to Catholics, who must always treat it with respect. Also note that Luther didn't believe that there was a certain point during Mass where the host actually became the Body of Christ (with Catholics this is always when the words of consecration are spoken.) In keeping with sola fide, Luther wanted to take power away from the clergy and keep focus away from any outward, physical signs of devotion towards the Eucharist even though Luther strongly believed in the Real Presence and had a very high view of the Eucharist himself.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:50
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I just hate that feeling that I am an imposter to my Church, that if people knew my thoughts I would find myself without a community. I know this is probably a neurosis that goes beyond theological differences, but whenever this topic comes up it opens the wound a bit. I always have to bite my tongue in response to this sentiment, because, frankly, it's very familiar to me -- except that the only honest conclusion I could ever come to was that I was, in fact, an impostor, and needed to reconstruct my entire world view and disavow my old beliefs. But I don't know if that's really what someone in your position wants or needs to hear. My circumstances were of course different from yours, and I spent years afterwards with a complex about whether I could trust my own conscience -- not because it disagreed with my old beliefs, but because it had once agreed with them. So at least I'm not suggesting that severing yourself from your beliefs makes the difficulty of wrestling with beliefs generally any easier; the struggle is about the same either way.
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Oct 26, 2017 19:53
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docbeard posted:Even decades removed from the place and people I grew up around, I still have this thing where when I first hear 'conservative', I don't always think of (what I consider to be) unpleasant political beliefs, I think of plain dress and horses and buggies. The Mennonites I grew up with and around were not of that particular bent, though I think my grandparents grew up that way. But I was familiar enough with it. Does your community feel exploited by the explosive rise of bonnet-ripper romance novels as a major genre in the last decade?
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Oct 26, 2017 21:13
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shame on an IGA posted:Does your community feel exploited by the explosive rise of bonnet-ripper romance novels as a major genre in the last decade? They're waiting for the Pennsylvania Dutch translations before they pass judgement.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:16
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slimy hog, name your kid after chiune sugihara
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Oct 26, 2017 21:18
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Valiantman posted:I know it's often well-meaning but dishonest to say to someone that I know how they feel, but I really do think I can relate to this one. Thank you for this. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I always have to bite my tongue in response to this sentiment, because, frankly, it's very familiar to me -- except that the only honest conclusion I could ever come to was that I was, in fact, an impostor, and needed to reconstruct my entire world view and disavow my old beliefs. But I don't know if that's really what someone in your position wants or needs to hear. I should clarify, I do not feel like an imposter before God, the God of the Church. I should also have written church with a small "c" because I also do not feel like an imposter to the Tradition that has been handed to me. Rather, I feel (sometimes, not always) estranged from the folks sitting next to me, but to be honest that could just be a psychological problem.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:24
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I should clarify, I do not feel like an imposter before God, the God of the Church. I should also have written church with a small "c" because I also do not feel like an imposter to the Tradition that has been handed to me. Rather, I feel (sometimes, not always) estranged from the folks sitting next to me, but to be honest that could just be a psychological problem.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:33
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HEY GAIL posted:I should think everyone feels at least somewhat estranged from everyone else--there's a wide diversity of opinions and life backgrounds in my home parish--and although I wish you'd convert to Orthodoxy, I think that's fine. Look at the miracle of tongues, after all, everyone from egyptians to scythians heard the apostles in their own language. And that was the beginning of the Church. I appreciate you. On a lighter note, in the most recent Code of Canon Law, if I did become Orthodox would that still be a canonical act of schism? I don't think that's apostasy.
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Oct 26, 2017 21:54
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We've got another entry in our popular series “weird Christianity-themed stuff“! Today: a 1950a medal depicting the Blessed Virgin Mary on top of a mushroom cloud!
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Oct 26, 2017 22:02
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System Metternich posted:We've got another entry in our popular series “weird Christianity-themed stuff“! Today: a 1950a medal depicting the Blessed Virgin Mary on top of a mushroom cloud! What does the comma next to the Moon mean? Or is it O'Mary?
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Oct 26, 2017 22:13
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Paladinus posted:What does the comma next to the Moon mean? Or is it O'Mary? That's the Theotokos' madien name: Mary O'Mary
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Oct 26, 2017 23:41
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Slimy Hog posted:That's the Theotokos' madien name: Mary O'Mary You jest but a friend of my from college has a little brother named Connor O'Connor.
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Oct 27, 2017 00:07
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Valiantman posted:I know it's often well-meaning but dishonest to say to someone that I know how they feel, but I really do think I can relate to this one. Tell them what you need to tell them, and no more. In Burke's treatment of the French Revolution, he says that he's a monarchist because the ritual throws a veil over human relationships, the brute realities of power. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 00:25
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I assume that this came from a student who was going to spend the entire period silently browsing facebook no matter how lively the discussion was? Seriously, why course evaluations are deemed in any way a useful metric is beyond me. Deans might like high numbers and "excellence," but they used to be professors. And we all know that a decent percentage of class consists of entitled shits who will hate you forever for saying "no" just once. (Maybe that was just the university where I taught, but I suspect it isn't unique to that place.)
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Oct 27, 2017 00:58
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Numerical Anxiety posted:And we all know that a decent percentage of class consists of entitled shits who will hate you forever for saying "no" just once.  On the other hand, there was a guy who got into Harvard for grad school, a young woman who had some sort of developmental disability and got help because I told her to go, and a guy who looked at me one day and said "I never knew people could look at books like this, until I talked to you." 
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Oct 27, 2017 01:03
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Our university used to do course evaluations in class, still anonymous. The first year they changed it to an email that you completed at your leisure response rates plummeted, the vitriolic nature of the responses increased, and one of our female philosophy professors received an evaluation that graphically described how the student was going to rape her.
Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 01:13
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Our university used to do professor evaluations in class, still anonymous. The first year they changed it to an email that you completed at your leisure response rates plummeted, the vitriolic nature of the responses increased, and one of our female philosophy professors received an evaluation that graphically described how the student was going to rape her.
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Oct 27, 2017 01:16
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I got a really bad evaluation from a student who cut her thumb open with a scalpel (after the class was told explicitly NOT to wash scalpels for that exact reason). She was mad that I sent her to the student health center to get stitches because I'm not a magician who can stop the bleeding from a scalpel wound.
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Oct 27, 2017 01:23
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Wanna see student evals from the University of Paris at the height of Scholasticism.
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