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I know, I also think Eddington's a brat.Cythereal posted:I dunno, Star Trek has just always felt uncomfortably white bread imperialist - imperialism by cultural hegemony rather than military conquest. That's what gets me about Eddington's speech, his assertion that the Federation feels like everyone should want to be a part of the Federation and share all of the Federation's values and beliefs. That's a criticism of the show setting and format itself, though. Which isn't invalid per se, but you haven't answered the question of what the Federation itself could do differently in order to not exercise a cultural hegemony. Unless Eddington's point/belief is ultimately that large-scale society is inherently bad and we should divide ourselves into the smallest self-sustaining communities possible.
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Oct 27, 2017 19:10
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:That's a criticism of the show setting and format itself, though. Which isn't invalid per se, but you haven't answered the question of what the Federation itself could do differently in order to not exercise a cultural hegemony. Unless Eddington's point/belief is ultimately that large-scale society is inherently bad and we should divide ourselves into the smallest self-sustaining communities possible. I haven't answered your question because I don't have an answer for it. The Maquis were not well thought out by the show's writers in general, I think - it's well known that they were only created on DS9 and TNG to lay the groundwork for VOY, and I think they work well when first introduced but afterwards as the Klingons show up and the Dominion starts ratcheting things up I think the Maquis lose their place in the narrative. It's why I don't care for For the Cause, it's a decent story that would have been fine in season two or even three, but feels out of place and pointless now. If the DS9 crew had kept with their original idea of how to kick off season four, of Vulcan withdrawing from the Federation, then I think the Maquis would have been a better and more complete part of the show's story as another manifestation of the Federation cracking and crumbling from within. As it is, I think The Maquis was a great two-parter and the Maquis story probably should have ended with Defiant.
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Oct 27, 2017 19:17
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Vulcan leaving the federation sounds dumb.
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Oct 27, 2017 19:19
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Baronjutter posted:Vulcan leaving the federation sounds dumb. Supposedly it was the original first thought for season four instead of opening with the Klingons. But DS9's ratings were down compared to TNG, and the studio executives wanted something more action-y and something that would bring over more fans from TNG and keep them watching. Worf and by extension the Klingons were the solution.
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Oct 27, 2017 19:23
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Baronjutter posted:Vulcan leaving the federation sounds dumb. Vexit
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Oct 27, 2017 19:24
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Tunicate posted:Vexit Fukit
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Oct 27, 2017 19:58
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The Maquis were always the dumbest rebellion and I’m glad the Dominion wiped them out
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Oct 27, 2017 19:58
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FlamingLiberal posted:The Maquis were always the dumbest rebellion and I’m glad the Dominion wiped them out MY GRANDFATHER WAS BURIED ON THAT MOUNTAIN
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Oct 27, 2017 19:59
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FlamingLiberal posted:The Maquis were always the dumbest rebellion and I’m glad the Dominion wiped them out Developed entirely to set up the new hit show star trek voyager, where two idealistically opposed crews have to work together to get home with dwindling supplies and resources Lmao
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Oct 27, 2017 20:06
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It's insane and unbelievable that they were developed just for Voyager, other 2 other shows, and only DS9 actually did anything with them while Voyager dropped it after the pilot.
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Oct 27, 2017 20:08
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To the Death Oh hey, it's the first appearance and death of Weyoun! And the second and last appearance of Iconian stuff, relevant yet disappointing to anyone who's played Star Trek Online. Interesting episode, another one focused on humanizing the Jem'hadar, and while I've seen some people scoff at Weyoun talking about having read Sisko's psych profile then offering him command of the post-conquest Federation as Weyoun being an idiot, I think that scene was Weyoun just trolling Sisko for his own amusement rather than seriously thinking he'd accept. Beyond that, ho hum. Iconian stuff never appears again in DS9 and neither does the prospect of a Jem'hadar rebellion. I think if DS9 had run longer, I think a Jem'hadar rebellion would have been a good way to finish off the Dominion story arc. Finally get through to these guys, the Jem'hadar overthrow the Founders and Vorta, and we get the Jem'hadar as a new wild card in the galaxy or maybe they even sign on with the Klingons or Romulans. As it is, I think any episode with Jeffrey Combs in a prominent role is worth a watch and this is where Combs codifies the Vorta as they appear in the rest of the series.
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Oct 27, 2017 20:09
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https://twitter.com/tshirtsbot/status/923619180389240832
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Oct 27, 2017 21:29
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I love the sound drop Greatest Gen now uses for Marquis. Makquess or whatever from the last terrible Luxana episode.
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Oct 27, 2017 21:40
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May kwees?!
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Oct 27, 2017 21:43
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That shirt should have had a tardigrade on it for maximum Trek inanity
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Oct 27, 2017 21:47
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Cythereal posted:I dunno, Star Trek has just always felt uncomfortably white bread imperialist - imperialism by cultural hegemony rather than military conquest. That's what gets me about Eddington's speech, his assertion that the Federation feels like everyone should want to be a part of the Federation and share all of the Federation's values and beliefs. They're not being culturally hegemonic though. Aliens that join the federation don't have to, and generally don't, adapt federation clothing, rituals, holidays or food or anything. The only cultural requirement is basically for the aliens to have civil liberties.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:06
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Cythereal posted:Even in DS9, this seems disturbingly accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBD5yyT-s0
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Oct 27, 2017 22:07
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Jeb! Repetition posted:They're not being culturally hegemonic though. Aliens that join the federation don't have to, and generally don't, adapt federation clothing, rituals, holidays or food or anything. The only cultural requirement is basically for the aliens to have civil liberties. But that is kind of the issue isn’t it? Everyone everywhere doesn’t agree on what civil liberties should be, even in the real world, even within individual nations.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:15
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Federation core member world Vulcan had legally enforced arranged marriages settled only by fights to the death, seems like the federation is pretty big on states rights. Also the Bolians are famous for their banking and finance, Jake says he doesn't have money because he's human, not because he's federation, so they don't even make you switch to space communism.' The bar is pretty low for the federation. Have a united planetary government, don't commit outright genocide, and abide by our foreign policy. That's about it. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 22:17
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Baronjutter posted:Federation core member world Vulcan had legally enforced arranged marriages settled only by fights to the death, seems like the federation is pretty big on states rights. All federation worlds have that, it just never came up.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:18
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maybe a god did it, with a starship
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Oct 27, 2017 22:23
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One World government is one of the requirements. Another is probably not sending your military out of your system and/or integrating it into Starfleet. Contributing a certain amount of resources to keep things running also, but you get so much poo poo back that it's almost certainly worth it.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:26
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Tunicate posted:All federation worlds have that, it just never came up. The battle theme from Amok Time is actually just the Federation hymn.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:28
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Also, nobody's forced to join the Federation. I also think a thing people get hung up on is "omg how could 150 different societies agree to form a federation at once" but they didn't; they started with four societies (way easier to get consensus with four than with 150) and then let others in as they met the criteria for acceptance. TNG has at least two examples of planets that want to join but are refused by the end of the episode because they didn't meet the Federation's standards. If they really want to join they can adjust their societies to follow, and if they really like their societies as-is then they can just not be Federation members. Societies don't need to be in the Federation or adopt Federation values to thrive; see the Ferengi.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:28
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Beachcomber posted:One World government is one of the requirements. Another is probably not sending your military out of your system and/or integrating it into Starfleet. Contributing a certain amount of resources to keep things running also, but you get so much poo poo back that it's almost certainly worth it. Based on what's seen in TNG and DS9, the requirements are fairly simple: 1. Have developed warp drive. 2. Have a world government, even if it's less a United States of Erehwon than a UN with some teeth. 3. Do not practice slavery or other forms of systematic exploitation. 4. No discriminatory societal practices like caste systems or systemic racism. 5. Subordinate your military to Starfleet. You seem to be able to keep your military for local and internal affairs, but Starfleet takes precedence, especially for interstellar affairs. 6. Integrate your planet into the Federation's political and economic system. This includes selecting someone to represent your race on the Federation Council and opening your borders to Federation immigration. Beyond that, the Federation seems fairly hands-off. We know from various trips into the future in the shows that eventually the Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire are absorbed into the Federation as member states, and it seems quite likely the Federation is meant to eventually take over the entire galaxy. Star Trek Online has some fun with this idea, positing that by the 29th century even the Borg are a part of the Federation - the peaceful Borg Cooperative that got started in Voyager, the Collective is defeated and gone by the 29th century.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:37
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Yeah I think the requirements shown are not all that arduous. The point about how you don't even have to adopt the Federation non-monetary system is interesting, though I always figured that the Federation knew what it *was*, it had just become something that was not a day to day concern for the average individual. If I was going to be cynical I would say that the motivation of the Maquis was actually that they were going to be the big fish in their little ponds, and that if they were all relocated they would lose whatever nebulous interior motivation or benefit they derived from this. If they'd thought it through some, they might have said "Look, we have fusion power, we have warp power, we have replicators. Why do we need some big organization at all? Why can't we just go our own way?" and then you have some actual tension. To which of course, well, the Dominion War shows why we have organized states at all. Vulcan leaving the Federation abruptly sounds like "the Romulans pulled something." A slow buildup to it might have been interesting, although my overall impression is that the average Vulcan did not seem to deeply long for anschluss with their bus-carpet-wearing brethren; that was Spock's project (and he was probably thinking more that the Romulans would join Vulcan, i.e. in the Federation or in some kind of allied-union situation). e: One of the places where the sci-fi analogies start to break down is in fact the scale and power of things. M-class planets appear to litter the sky. You could certainly provide a post-scarcity lifestyle for hundreds of billions for millenia using only the resources in the Sol system based on Trek's displayed technology, and you can probably make that "essentially permanent" if you build a Nessus fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 22:39
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skasion posted:But that is kind of the issue isn’t it? Everyone everywhere doesn’t agree on what civil liberties should be, even in the real world, even within individual nations. Well there's a lot more we agree on than disagree on (see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), and maybe the federation's more lenient with controversial points. But saying it's a problem that the federation wants its (voluntary) members to have citizen rights is kind of ridiculous to me.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:44
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Well there's a lot more we agree on than disagree on (see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), and maybe the federation's more lenient with controversial points. But saying it's a problem that the federation wants its (voluntary) members to have citizen rights is kind of ridiculous to me.   Though while of course matters are a little different right now, my understanding on why we did not sign up for a lot of this poo poo was a mixture of "refusal to even slightly reduce our hypothetical freedom of action against terries trynna get froggie" or "we don't want to have to extradite Henry Kissinger." e: I don't know if Discovery is this show but it seems like you could get some mileage out of when the Federation was smaller. Like now it's 150 star-nations and presumably all their colony planets, but originally it was just four.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:47
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I thought the only thing Bolians were famous for was clogging all the turlets.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:48
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Nessus posted:Vulcan leaving the Federation abruptly sounds like "the Romulans pulled something." A slow buildup to it might have been interesting, although my overall impression is that the average Vulcan did not seem to deeply long for anschluss with their bus-carpet-wearing brethren; that was Spock's project (and he was probably thinking more that the Romulans would join Vulcan, i.e. in the Federation or in some kind of allied-union situation). This would have been the season four opener, so more likely the Founders pulling something - season four deals a lot with the Founders working to destabilize the Alpha and Beta Quadrant in preparation for their overt invasion. Way of the Warrior is a Klingon war of conquest against the Cardassians and attacking anyone else who looks vulnerable, in time revealed to have been engineered by the Founders to weaken the Klingons and everyone they attack. The Adversary is the Founders trying to engineer a Federation-Tzenkethi war to weaken both powers. Homefront and Paradise Lost are the Founders working on the Federation's internal dynamics. The interviews I've read mentioned that Homefront and Paradise Lost were adapted from the original planned story for Vulcan withdrawing from the Federation, so the original plan was probably to open the season with the Federation in internal crisis and turmoil from Founder machinations.
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Oct 27, 2017 22:49
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Nessus posted:I think you will find that the United States of America does not sign up to those, therefore they do not count We also aren't party to the International Criminal Court, and passed legislation in 2003 that said the president can invade the Hague if they ever try to prosecute any Americans for war crimes. 
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Oct 27, 2017 22:53
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Jeb! Repetition posted:We also aren't party to the International Criminal Court, and passed legislation in 2003 that said the president can invade the Hague if they ever try to prosecute any Americans for war crimes. Gags aside, I can't think of a really strict analogue to the formation of the Federation in Earth political history. It seems looser than US states (though perhaps not pre-civil war) but in some ways sufficiently unified that people happily have dual identities. The matter is somewhat skewed of course by all the shows having a heavy focus on the members of the Federation's primary uniformed service, who might reasonably feel *particularly* loyal to Starfleet/The Federation over Earth or Bolius. (Bolia? Bol? Boliania?)
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Oct 27, 2017 23:09
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Watching Chain of Command Pt. II finally
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Oct 27, 2017 23:15
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Just occurred to me that they could have used the Romulans for this whole plot so far instead of the Cardassians since it doesn't involve Bajorans and Ro Laren hasn't even had a role
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Oct 27, 2017 23:16
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Watching Chain of Command Pt. II finally There are THREE parts. Jeb! Repetition posted:Just occurred to me that they could have used the Romulans for this whole plot so far instead of the Cardassians since it doesn't involve Bajorans and Ro Laren hasn't even had a role Spoon heads are the best and become by far the most developed "bad" race in trek.
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Oct 27, 2017 23:17
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Oh, apparently they've got a truth serum, that makes interrogation kind of boring
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Oct 27, 2017 23:17
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Baronjutter posted:There are THREE parts. Does it have an immediate followup like the Best of Both Worlds?
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Oct 27, 2017 23:18
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Baronjutter posted:There are THREE parts. THERE....ARE...TWO.......PARTS!
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Oct 27, 2017 23:21
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What does this dude want from Picard
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Oct 27, 2017 23:25
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Whoa Picard's shirt off in bondage gear. Holy poo poo and he's naked
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Oct 27, 2017 23:27
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