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Empok Nor And you were so good about avoiding the redshirt thing, DS9! It's Die Hard In Space, I guess - shades of Cube In Space, really - so I suppose it can't be helped. Also kind of a pointless episode given what's coming up. Still, a good Garak episode is a good Garak episode even if Robinson himself was vocal about disliking the episode.
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Oct 31, 2017 22:33
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Doggles posted:I no longer have access to All Access so I haven't watched the past few episodes of STD. If I've picked this up right across Star Trek threads, it sounds like Harry Mudd got the crew stuck in some sort of time loop. Can anyone confirm/deny if the series is still doing the Alice in Wonderland retelling route? Did the Mad Hatter really get stuck in time? This week's episode absolutely was Harry Mudd using a machine to create a time loop so he could steal the Discovery/kill Lorca over and over for abandoning him on a Klingon prison ship. I'm curious, though, if Harry's the Hatter, who is Lt. Stamets in this theory? The Cheshire Cat?
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Oct 31, 2017 23:56
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Stamets is the rabbit; Lorca is the Queen.
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Nov 1, 2017 00:47
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FlamingLiberal posted:I think a real problem on a lot of these shows are different writers that don’t get what the characters are fundamentally about. On TV before the Story Arc/Prestige era, especially the 60s, we were lucky they could even turn out any consistency with plot, settings, or characters. The briefs they were given and backstories were laughable.
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Nov 1, 2017 02:44
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END CHEMTRAILS NOW posted:It's a lot like the Klingons though. We hear a lot about them, but they never touch on what it's like to be a Klingon farmer or scientist or anything like that. I think that could be interesting. They do a couple of times actually. Klingon scientists show up once or twice on TNG, and there's a Klingon lawyer in ENT that philosophises about every job being a battle. That wasn't bad, definitely a highlight of ENT.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:23
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:They do a couple of times actually. Klingon scientists show up once or twice on TNG, and there's a Klingon lawyer in ENT that philosophises about every job being a battle. That wasn't bad, definitely a highlight of ENT. That was Martok, so it's a given it was great. Also, Klingon lawyers, chefs, and administrators on DS9.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:31
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Day to day Klingon life must sound insane. The interest rate you have offered for this pre-owned vehicle is a disrespect to my house! Your sons will bear the shame if you cannot get my monthly payments lower!
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Nov 1, 2017 03:50
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Cythereal posted:Doctor Bashir I Presume I always thought it would have been great to have Bashir find out about the enhancements at the same time as the audience. He thinks he's hot poo poo and then discovers what happened to him; it would be really compelling.
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Nov 1, 2017 03:51
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In the Cards I get the point of this episode, it's meant to be a breather. That does not mean I like it. Another disappointing filler episode that I think could have been more interesting if the crew were consciously trying to have one last party - if ever there was a call for Lwaxana Troi, I think it would be here and now. Call to Arms Now here is the good poo poo. The Dominion was first hinted at in Rules of Acquisition in Season Two Episode Seven. When they first appeared in The Jem'hadar, it was with a single message: the Dominion does not gently caress around. Every season has continued to escalate the Dominion threat until the hammer finally drops here and now. It's great stuff, the culmination of two and a half seasons of buildup and palpable tension to what everyone knows is coming and the Dominion does not disappoint. Nor does Sisko, and I love how stone cold Weyoun is when things kick into high gear. Affable and light-hearted as Weyoun can be, it's good to be reminded that he has exactly as much of a conscience as Dukat: zero, he's just less delusional about being a monster. Fortunately Starfleet came up with a way to harden their shields against the Dominion's polaron beams that have been cutting straight through everyone's shields, and you can tell at the end that Dukat thinks this will be easy but Weyoun clearly sees that this war is going to be far more difficult than the Dominion had planned or Dukat had promised. Indeed, I rather get the feeling that the number one thing the Federation has going for it in this war is that Dukat is the leader of the Cardassians and Dukat is a moron. Well, not necessarily so much a moron as so delusional he's hopelessly out of touch with reality. And what's more, Weyoun seems to know that. 
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Nov 1, 2017 03:56
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I don't get your dislike of the lighter episodes that explore DS9's characters. Those are some of DS9's best episodes.
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Nov 1, 2017 04:13
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Two things. One, I feel they often don't fit particularly well into the overall arc of the seasons with the buildup to the Dominion threat - In the Cards was better about this than most. Two, I find most of the cast intensely unlikable or at least unconvincing in these episodes. Jake is a certified asshat in In the Cards, for example. What I'm looking for in an episode is: does it contribute to the story of the show in general, does it have a compelling story of its own, and does it reveal or show anything new, interesting, or at least funny about the characters. Most of these episodes struggle to score one for three. Children of Time is a good example. It's got an interesting story, but it contributes nothing to the overall story of Deep Space Nine and it doesn't show anything new or particularly interesting about the cast. Odo's in love with Kira, I get it, I've gotten that for a while now. One such episode I really like, to offer an example, is Shadowplay. It's a good Jake episode, has an interesting little story of its own, is another early episode foreshadowing the Dominion, and I find the dilemma of the episode and its message at the end intriguing. Writer Cath posted:I always thought it would have been great to have Bashir find out about the enhancements at the same time as the audience. He thinks he's hot poo poo and then discovers what happened to him; it would be really compelling. That would also have been a good approach, and particularly interesting to consider with The Quickening and Bashir's arrogance about curing the Blight (and then how he actually does at the end, if not how he intended).
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Nov 1, 2017 04:27
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Sash! posted:Day to day Klingon life must sound insane. I figure all Klingons are really enthusiastic about their lives. We mostly see warriors, so they're all yelling about how being a warrior is the most important thing ever!, but the Klingon chef is just as dedicated to being the best drat chef in the galaxy, the Klingon lawyer is obsessive about winning his case, and yeah, there's probably farmers who won't shut up about how anyone who's not farming is a worthless p'taq...
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Nov 1, 2017 04:31
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The Masterpiece Society was incredibly boring. At least Troi got laid consensually, for once.
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Nov 1, 2017 06:20
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Angry Salami posted:I figure all Klingons are really enthusiastic about their lives. We mostly see warriors, so they're all yelling about how being a warrior is the most important thing ever!, but the Klingon chef is just as dedicated to being the best drat chef in the galaxy, the Klingon lawyer is obsessive about winning his case, and yeah, there's probably farmers who won't shut up about how anyone who's not farming is a worthless p'taq... 
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Nov 1, 2017 06:54
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Cythereal posted:Two things. One, I feel they often don't fit particularly well into the overall arc of the seasons with the buildup to the Dominion threat - In the Cards was better about this than most. Two, I find most of the cast intensely unlikable or at least unconvincing in these episodes. Jake is a certified asshat in In the Cards, for example. DS9 was made in the 90's. While it follows more of an arc than any other Star Trek series(STD doesn't exist imo), it is still an episodic show at heart. Expecting every episode to link to the big overall plot is a bit odd.
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Nov 1, 2017 07:51
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Peachfart posted:DS9 was made in the 90's. While it follows more of an arc than any other Star Trek series(STD doesn't exist imo), it is still an episodic show at heart. Expecting every episode to link to the big overall plot is a bit odd. You know, I've long wondered. I understand this is the case and that DS9 was in many ways ahead of the curve, but aren't there other shows that did serial storytelling as well? The X-Files obviously had a lot of mytharc episodes and whatnot - not to mention Twin Peaks. Plus even cartoons like Gargoyles were super serialized. And Twin Peaks was obviously, until the second season, massively well regarded and received. Why were networks so averse to serialized storytelling when it had clearly been demonstrated to be a viable model for television programming?
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Nov 1, 2017 08:28
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Why were networks so averse to serialized storytelling when it had clearly been demonstrated to be a viable model for television programming? Reruns were worth $$$$$, and episodic reruns are far easier to handle logistically, since you can stick them in any timeslots you want without worrying about people missing an episode and getting confused.
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Nov 1, 2017 08:30
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Yep, that's basically it. Stations airing shows in syndication used to not give a single gently caress about airing episodes in order, and I suspect actively didn't want to deal with it. Stuff like airing an episode where a major character dies and then the rest of the episodes that week featuring that character happened all the time. There was a weird period when they started to adapt to serialization. You'd see something like, say Next Gen airing 5 days a week, but for two parters they'd air Part 1 on Monday and Part 2 on the following Monday.
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Nov 1, 2017 08:48
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Taking a break now and then to do things that aren't strictly related to the serial throughline is a feature, not a bug. Especially in 22+ episode seasons.
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Nov 1, 2017 09:00
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Instant Sunrise posted:Considering that Andrew Hussie was the Andrew in the JAndrew TNG edits, this seems likely. Woah. I know this post was from WAY back, but...really? This is the first thing I've ever read or seen or heard to make me have a shred of interest in Hussie's work (that I knew of, turns out, I've been a fan, of sorts, for years).
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Nov 1, 2017 10:17
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McSpanky posted:Taking a break now and then to do things that aren't strictly related to the serial throughline is a feature, not a bug. Especially in 22+ episode seasons.
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Nov 1, 2017 11:08
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My fav DS9 episode is when that ferengi forms a union
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Nov 1, 2017 12:32
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Sash! posted:Day to day Klingon life must sound insane. Fifteen klanks for this tunic? You price middling goods like a Ferengi! If this were any other JC Penney, I would kill you where you stand. Instead, I demand to engage in ritual combat with your manager.
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Nov 1, 2017 13:48
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:You know, I've long wondered. I understand this is the case and that DS9 was in many ways ahead of the curve, but aren't there other shows that did serial storytelling as well? The X-Files obviously had a lot of mytharc episodes and whatnot - not to mention Twin Peaks. Plus even cartoons like Gargoyles were super serialized. And Twin Peaks was obviously, until the second season, massively well regarded and received. Why were networks so averse to serialized storytelling when it had clearly been demonstrated to be a viable model for television programming? Plus it's not like you could just hit up a wiki and find out what you'd missed or what order poo poo was supposed to be in. I remember dialling into specific Trek BBS's and spending hours downloading and printing episode guides that were all hand written by fans. If you wanted to get into a show deep you had to do the leg work yourself.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:02
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Fifteen klanks for this tunic? You price middling goods like a Ferengi! If this were any other JC Penney, I would kill you where you stand. They will sing songs of this monthly status report!
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Nov 1, 2017 14:03
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I'd like to imagine getting promoted in a Klingon office is just like being on their ships, you have to go over to someone's office and challenge them for dominance. "The House of Mogh claims this vice presidency for it's own glory and honor!"
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Nov 1, 2017 14:09
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Sash! posted:They will sing songs of this monthly status report! You failed to meet your quarterly growth goal by two basis points. Your options are: suicide with honor, or your descendants become slaves for seven generations.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:17
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McSpanky posted:Taking a break now and then to do things that aren't strictly related to the serial throughline is a feature, not a bug. Especially in 22+ episode seasons. I'm not arguing that point. Would help if most of these episodes were good, though.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:51
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Warrior service, this is t'Kemvagh. How may I bring you glory today?
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Nov 1, 2017 14:53
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In all seriousness, I love that there's a scene of Quark walking through financials with a bunch of great warriors dutifully following along in understanding. Then one rages out about the indignity of trying to bring down a great house with money
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Nov 1, 2017 18:32
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Stuff like that is what truly made DS9 great, though - the writers were not afraid to take a lot of concepts put forth in both TOS and TNG and... take them to their logical extremes, in a manner of speaking? I think this was something that was sort of in the DS9 DNA from the very start of the series. I recall, for example, one of my least favorite episodes of the entire series - Q-Less. That was an early S1 episode, and the only one that featured Q (as well that side character from Captain's Holiday but that's sort of irrelevant). The episode just totally fell flat and did not work on some fundamental level that I can't entirely explain. It was like... Q simply *could not* really exist within the world of DS9, because part of the show having a static location was that it NEEDED to be more grounded in a consistent sort of reality. Q worked fine in TNG, and pretty well in Voyager from what I saw... And part of that had to do with the episodic nature of the two series, if you ask me. It was like.. No matter what outrageous thing happened or what absurd deus-ex-machina gadget was written into TOS/TNG/VOY, they could basically just read some sort of conclusion, realistic or not, and it is necessarily mostly forgotten by the next episode. But again, they really didn't have the luxury of doing this on DS9 for the most part - at least not when it started to really get good. A great example is "In the Pale Moonlight." This is a masterful episode, easily one of the best of the entire series and in my top 3 all-time episode. But the truth is that to fully and truly understand everything that happens in this episode and all the subtle nuance, you basically need to have seen every single episode of both TNG and DS9 up to that point, and have a solid understanding of the basic geopolitics between the Federation and the Romulans, while retaining also a strong understanding of who both Sisko and Garak are at this exact point in time, and just how much the war has taken a toll on Sisko and already robbed him of much of the humanity he once had and valued so deeply at the start of the series. But again - it is like the polar opposite of episodic television. To appreciate "In the Pale Moonlight", not only must you have watched all the episodes that came before it to fully appreciate it (maybe even TNG for episodes like The First Duty) but you also don't fully appreciate that episode until you've watched all the episodes in DS9 that follow it.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:06
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DS9 also has the Prophets, who feel much more like truly alien, godlike entities than Q ever does.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:17
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DS9 feels like real (by which I mean basically literary SF) science fiction to me in a way the rest of trek doesn't. Which is no knock against the rest of trek, which is really it's own thing. But ds9 sets up a fairly discrete set of premises and then takes them seriously in a really satisfying way.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:28
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DS9 is the most real feeling trek because it's real.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:31
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Baronjutter posted:DS9 is the most real feeling trek because it's real. William Shatner award for acting goes to:
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Nov 1, 2017 20:10
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kaworu posted:A great example is "In the Pale Moonlight." This is a masterful episode, easily one of the best of the entire series and in my top 3 all-time episode. But the truth is that to fully and truly understand everything that happens in this episode and all the subtle nuance, you basically need to have seen every single episode of both TNG and DS9 up to that point, and have a solid understanding of the basic geopolitics between the Federation and the Romulans, while retaining also a strong understanding of who both Sisko and Garak are at this exact point in time, and just how much the war has taken a toll on Sisko and already robbed him of much of the humanity he once had and valued so deeply at the start of the series. It's been a while since I watched it, but I feel anyone can decipher from context what's going in "Moonlight." It's spelled out pretty plainly: the good guys are losing a war, the honest leader of the good guys makes a deal with the devil to trick a neutral faction into joining the fight. It's self-contained enough as a story, granted only the long-time fans will feel the "oh, poo poo" factor. I feel like that was a balancing act DS9 often (if not always) did pretty well.
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Nov 1, 2017 20:13
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adhuin posted:William Shatner award for acting goes to: He Shatnered the hell out of that scene!
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Nov 1, 2017 20:13
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Baronjutter posted:DS9 is the most real feeling trek because it's real. I know it's supposed to be a serious episode but that performance cracks me up every time. Ben Sisko is very Captain Kirk-ish. Except he's a decent dad and isn't a womanizer. And is a lot angrier. He even talks in that same weird way with a lot of pauses in the middle of sentences.
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Nov 1, 2017 20:41
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J33uk posted:Plus it's not like you could just hit up a wiki and find out what you'd missed or what order poo poo was supposed to be in. I remember dialling into specific Trek BBS's and spending hours downloading and printing episode guides that were all hand written by fans. If you wanted to get into a show deep you had to do the leg work yourself. Yeah going back and watching old episodes was often impossible unless you taped them yourself. Many shows would just get a handful of episodes released on VHS. The rise of DVD and therefore the DVD box set was pretty important in the rise of serialised tv. So much more convenient to lend a friend a DVD box set than a VHS one. A lot people got into shows like the Sopranos that way.
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Nov 1, 2017 20:52
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Gammatron 64 posted:I know it's supposed to be a serious episode but that performance cracks me up every time. Sisko is also much more spiritual, and far more ruthless. In an episode like For the Uniform, you know Kirk, Picard, or Archer would be bluffing. Not Sisko. Janeway, would depend on who's writing that particular episode. To me, the defining trait of Sisko's style as a captain is that he's brutally efficient at deconstructing problems and doing whatever it takes to get the job done. Sisko gets to the heart of the matter right away by hook or by crook and he's game for any course of action towards that end. He'd prefer to talk, of course, but he shares Kirk's guile and willingness to take decisive action when that's what's called for, and take it much further than Kirk. A Taste of Armageddon is right up Sisko's alley, but I think Kirk would balk at Sisko's actions in For the Uniform or In the Pale Moonlight. I think of Kirk as the cunning captain, Picard as the diplomatic captain, Sisko as the pragmatic captain, Janeway as the determined captain, and Archer as the captain with something to prove.
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Nov 1, 2017 20:56
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