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lemon-lyme disease posted:Is that really what most straight men would guess they’d like. Maybe I’m just learning I’m odd in a new way. Seems like a lot of straight dudes seem to think that way they want to look like is the same as what women would want them to look like. I dunno, I'm bi and just kinda want to lose some weight.
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Nov 5, 2017 05:50
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Improbable Lobster posted:Seems like a lot of straight dudes seem to think that way they want to look like is the same as what women would want them to look like. I dunno, I'm bi and just kinda want to lose some weight. Okay, that narrows it and is very helpful, although it doesn’t really fix my confusion. I’m heterosexual but I’ve never wanted to look all musclebound or “swole” or whatever. I always aspired to (and achieved, in my younger days) the wiry side of lanky and unkempt in a good way. I guess what I’m saying is I’ve never really thought the hollywood ideal of the action hero was actually drawn from a real-life common male ideal.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:21
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lemon-lyme disease posted:Okay, that narrows it and is very helpful, although it doesn’t really fix my confusion. I’m heterosexual but I’ve never wanted to look all musclebound or “swole” or whatever. I always aspired to (and achieved, in my younger days) the wiry side of lanky and unkempt in a good way. sounds like deeply internalized cope to me
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Nov 5, 2017 06:23
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lemon-lyme disease posted:Okay, that narrows it and is very helpful, although it doesn’t really fix my confusion. I’m heterosexual but I’ve never wanted to look all musclebound or “swole” or whatever. I always aspired to (and achieved, in my younger days) the wiry side of lanky and unkempt in a good way. Might be the reverse. Hollywood musclebound power fantasies leading to dudes fantasizing about being beefackes.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:25
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I figure a lot of the seemingly random and often contradictory attributes are a result of men simply having absolutely no idea what they're 'supposed' to be, look or act like. A strong lack of effective socialisation and role models results in a confused cargo-culting of a society they mostly view from the outside.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:47
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Improbable Lobster posted:Might be the reverse. Hollywood musclebound power fantasies leading to dudes fantasizing about being beefackes. Where did it start? hollywood-wise, I mean. There’s probably a fairly interesting book about this.
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Nov 5, 2017 07:35
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Inescapable Duck posted:I figure a lot of the seemingly random and often contradictory attributes are a result of men simply having absolutely no idea what they're 'supposed' to be, look or act like. A strong lack of effective socialisation and role models results in a confused cargo-culting of a society they mostly view from the outside. I don't disagree that there are male body image issues that get little widespread attention (understandably, as body image issues are much worse for women because the ideal for them is way narrower than it is for men), but there is a pretty clear message sent by society, advertising, and the media in general about what men are 'supposed' to be. It basically all boils down to nebulously defined 'strength', like being aggressive, emotionless rocks (except for when showing emotions is strength) and making things tougher for themselves to the point of stupidity, which frequently has consequences for others. Overall there is a deep self centered component to it. The framing of everything around strength and austerity naturally leads into people interpreting what they are supposed to be as some beefcake cut straight from granite, and because they think that's what they should be, naturally they think that's what others want them to be. Women on average not being attracted to that (and treating women as a monolithic bloc is incorrect anyway) doesn't matter. Basically women's thoughts and opinions don't matter to these people, validation from other men does, because misogyny.
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Nov 5, 2017 07:47
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fruit on the bottom posted:This was on a site about a TV show of all things. She was complaining about the show not following her feminist agenda. I pointed out that there are some feminist-themed shows, but this was not one of them and that the writer's job is to create an interesting story, not to preach an ideology. She went berserk with ad hominem attacks. Every time she did so, I pointed out that she did not address my argument, but instead simply attacked me. I pointed out that an argument stands on the merits of the argument itself, not based on who the person is based on their gender, age, national origin, race, etc. I pointed out that she attacked me based on all those things, but never once addressed my actual argument that the writer's primary concern is writing a story that will be interesting and thus make people want to watch that show. She tried over and over, and each time, I drew a little arrow and said "ad hominem attack based on ..." and then filled in the blank with what it was "gender," "age," "nationality," whichever one it was. By the end, all she could say was, "You're being mean" to which I answered, "You picked a fight with me and now you don't like it when I fight back. That's what you call 'mean.'". I had others on the site laughing at her. She couldn't come out and say, "No, the writer shouldn't concern himself with a good story -- he should preach feminism" because such a premise would sound idiotic. she went berserk with ad hominem attacks
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Nov 5, 2017 08:01
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chumbler posted:I don't disagree that there are male body image issues that get little widespread attention (understandably, as body image issues are much worse for women because the ideal for them is way narrower than it is for men), but there is a pretty clear message sent by society, advertising, and the media in general about what men are 'supposed' to be. It basically all boils down to nebulously defined 'strength', like being aggressive, emotionless rocks (except for when showing emotions is strength) and making things tougher for themselves to the point of stupidity, which frequently has consequences for others. Overall there is a deep self centered component to it. The framing of everything around strength and austerity naturally leads into people interpreting what they are supposed to be as some beefcake cut straight from granite, and because they think that's what they should be, naturally they think that's what others want them to be. Women on average not being attracted to that (and treating women as a monolithic bloc is incorrect anyway) doesn't matter.
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Nov 5, 2017 08:03
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Men tend to be attracted to exaggerated femininity (the archetypal blonde, big-breasted, shopping-obsessed giggling Stacy) and so assume that women must be attracted to exaggerated masculinity in the same way, without stopping to think that exaggerated masculinity carries implied threat in a way that exaggerated femininity doesn't.
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Nov 5, 2017 08:10
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lemon-lyme disease posted:Where did it start? hollywood-wise, I mean. There’s probably a fairly interesting book about this. I have to imagine that it simply started because a dangerous man is inevitably what action stories will tend to be about. Whether a particular person or trait is extremely attractive or not, a muscle bound man who is overly and supremely 'masculine' is, by his inherent nature, dangerous. So the stories just started out being focused on these guys who are scary men who beat people up, men desire to be them, goes on from there. Also, to be 100% fair since we're going back into Hollywood history, remember that a lot of women drooled over Stanley Kowalski, who was a massive loving oval office in every possible way and essentially the definition of an extremely over-masculine douchebag. Brando commented on how much it annoyed him that women seemed to think he was somehow troubled or a good guy because they wanted to gently caress him, as that was the exact opposite of the point of the play/film. It's not inaccurate to say that many women are in fact attracted to traditionally masculine traits a lot of the time. Of course, not all women are; like Chum said, women aren't a monolith. Not all men are attracted to giant tittied blondes. Incels believe that all women want to have sex with traditionally masculine guys and that they should want to have sex with the "Stacies" because they have little skill or knowledge of social norms and are basically just going off of what they think people should like rather than actual reality of the situation.
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Nov 5, 2017 09:38
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Milo and POTUS posted:she went berserk with ad hominem attacks My new kindle bestseller.
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Nov 5, 2017 10:19
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Given the increasingly hyper-specific things they bring up, I also think a lot of it is people with massive self-loathing and feeling entirely rejected by society figuring that what women find attractive must be the exact opposite of whatever they are. Kind of explains the whole virgin-chad dichotomy being a mostly incoherent mishmash of jocks, the wealthy and people with confidence and social skils.
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Nov 5, 2017 11:00
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chumbler posted:Basically women's thoughts and opinions don't matter to these people, validation from other men does, because misogyny. Kind of like how women dress to impress other women rather than men. NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Men tend to be attracted to exaggerated femininity (the archetypal blonde, big-breasted, shopping-obsessed giggling Stacy) and so assume that women must be attracted to exaggerated masculinity in the same way, without stopping to think that exaggerated masculinity carries implied threat in a way that exaggerated femininity doesn't. Well actually, the average pornstar is a b-cupped brunette.
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Nov 5, 2017 11:31
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Benny Harvey posted:Well actually, the average pornstar is a b-cupped brunette.
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Nov 5, 2017 12:09
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Are brunettes/small chested women more willing to do porn than blondes/big chested women?
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Nov 5, 2017 12:39
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Most women I meet say they want slender dudes. They think too much muscle is unattractive, of course, because they're thinking of like bodybuilders and poo poo. But when they see me in a tight shirt they usually very much appreciate it (I'm like medium muscled) I thought basically only dudes cared about biceps until I found a woman with a biceps fetish so
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Nov 5, 2017 13:25
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It is well known that brunettes can handle an assfucking way better than any other species of woman
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Nov 5, 2017 13:27
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Modern porn may as well be named hello.mp4 
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Nov 5, 2017 13:28
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lemon-lyme disease posted:Where did it start? hollywood-wise, I mean. There’s probably a fairly interesting book about this. Okay I don't really remember where I've read this, so I can't give credit, but anyway one theory is that the 80s muscle-bound action hero archetype came as a consequence of the limitations in cinema technologies at the time. Basically Hollywood wanted to make these epic action stories, but the SFX, action choreography, and cinematography that was required simply hasn't been invented then, at least not in the west. So how do you convey that your male lead is incredible? Well, you can't make him do incredible-looking things because you don't have the technology. But you can make them look incredible, be casting leads that looked that they were capable of incredible things - i.e. just have seemingly impossible amount of muscles. Conan, Rambo, Commando are all technologically speaking rather simple films, but the audience believes the male lead can do all those things, because their superhuman-looking bodies signalled that they are capable of superhuman feats. But then as the 80s passed into the 90s, several things happened. One is Die Hard, where the focus is not on some superhero/super-soldier, but the desperate every-man John McClane (which incidentally spawned the whole latter Die Hard/Taken I-Am-Old-But-Still-Relevant-And-You-Should-Always-Listen-To-Your-Old-Dad genre). Then there's the infusion of martial arts into Hollywood, with the like of Jean-Claude Van Damme and Jackie Chan (I know Bruce Lee was earlier, but he only made five films, and only one of which saw any real release in the US). And there was the influx of cinema technology and techniques from Hong Kong cinema, i.e. the Shaw Brothers' wire-fu, and John Wu's action choreography. And then of course there was CGI, which really blossomed in the late 1990s. But the point is, with all these things you could actually have action heroes like Neo, John McClane, Jason Bourne, Jason Statham who can actually do incredible things on screen, on not just look like they can do those things. But of course the 1980s stereotype has never really left the popular imagination.
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Nov 5, 2017 13:47
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I just think there were less muscle bound freaks around in general in the 60's. In the 70's you saw more people in the gym and by the 80's a fitness culture started brewing. Superhuman looking fuckers like Arnold became superstars pretty much only because of how cool they looked (because he sure as gently caress couldn't act) Now most dudes in Hollywood are still ripped (just look at Thor or Captain America  ) but they're not quite bodybuilder ripped
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Nov 5, 2017 14:06
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Were comic books doing it before Hollywood was? And those used to be huge.
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Nov 5, 2017 14:19
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Sentient Data posted:Modern porn may as well be named hello.mp4 Idgi
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Nov 5, 2017 14:45
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Benny Harvey posted:Are brunettes/small chested women more willing to do porn than blondes/big chested women? No they're just average is the point, you sad sack of poo poo Benny Harvey posted:Idgi Goatse (hello.jpg) i.e. extreme butt stuff is now mainstream
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Nov 5, 2017 15:02
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Inescapable Duck posted:Were comic books doing it before Hollywood was? And those used to be huge. Sort of, I guess? The really goddamn ridiculous comic book bodies are from the 90s. But the original Superman and The Phantom are still pretty muscular guys in skintight suits.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:03
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Benny Harvey posted:Idgi
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Nov 5, 2017 15:04
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Blurry Gray Thing posted:But the original Superman and The Phantom are still pretty muscular guys in skintight suits. They were obviously (?) inspired by circus athletes
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Nov 5, 2017 15:11
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Hedenius posted:Should be your loving epitaph. Why do you hate the mentally ill? E: though there are certain things I get that a lot of people don't, like looks being important to women.
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Nov 5, 2017 15:26
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Only in that they're not irrelevant. You won't find that many people who care deeply about looks, especially women. But incels wouldn't be happy with their looks unless they were the kind of guy that constantly passes women on the street who take notice and fantasize about him later. Anything less and it's over!
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Nov 5, 2017 15:57
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timefly posted:Only in that they're not irrelevant. You won't find that many people who care deeply about looks, especially women. But incels wouldn't be happy with their looks unless they were the kind of guy that constantly passes women on the street who take notice and fantasize about him later. Anything less and it's over! Is this a thing we women even do? I remember once on the tram in Prague, I saw the most beautiful man I'd ever seen in my life, and I didn't immediately go "boy I want that guy to rail me RIGHT NOW" I thought "boy this would be a great time to be a talent scout or casting director."
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Nov 5, 2017 16:03
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Benny Harvey posted:Why do you hate the mentally ill? *pays real money to post on a forum famous for making fun of the mentally ill and grieving mothers* "Boy I sure hope they don't make fun of the mentally ill over here."
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Nov 5, 2017 16:08
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Pick posted:Is this a thing we women even do? I remember once on the tram in Prague, I saw the most beautiful man I'd ever seen in my life, and I didn't immediately go "boy I want that guy to rail me RIGHT NOW" I thought "boy this would be a great time to be a talent scout or casting director." I'm sure some women do, but as with most incel things it seems to be a projection of what women want based on the only frame of reference incels have--themselves. They fantasize about loving that cute girl on the train, thus all women do the same with men. In my experience being slim and muscular will always be best, but a good personality and confidence really do go a long way.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:12
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chumbler posted:Basically women's thoughts and opinions don't matter to these people, validation from other men does, because misogyny. I'm not denying there's a lot of misogyny, but media and similar does have a far more influential role when talking about attractiveness, because of the need to "play the numbers". If you ask 100 women (or men for that matter) what's attractive to them, you'll get 100 different answers, which is not dishonest. But 100 geographically separate women's responses, many of whom may not be looking for a relationship, are pretty difficult to process into something that'll achieve the validation incels want: to either be attractive to that one woman they're already obsessed with, or to inspire visible interest signals from women in their local area. A film, though? A film is telling you that some casting director wanted to make that character "look attractive" to several million people. hyphz fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 16:22
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Pick posted:Is this a thing we women even do? I remember once on the tram in Prague, I saw the most beautiful man I'd ever seen in my life, and I didn't immediately go "boy I want that guy to rail me RIGHT NOW" I thought "boy this would be a great time to be a talent scout or casting director." Testosterone is a hell of a drug.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:02
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timefly posted:Only in that they're not irrelevant. You won't find that many people who care deeply about looks, especially women. This is really naive Like how can you live in this world and believe this Looks matter a lot. The outside gives the inside a chance ya know
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Nov 5, 2017 17:14
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Fartbox posted:This is really naive I hate to agree with anyone ever but yeah, sociologists and psychologists have done a lot of work in this area and lo and behold looks do matter (at least as far as statistics tells us). It's just looks are not the end all be all of outcomes as the incel thinks they are.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:30
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Literally A Person posted:I hate to agree with anyone ever but yeah, sociologists and psychologists have done a lot of work in this area and lo and behold looks do matter (at least as far as statistics tells us). It's just looks are not the end all be all of outcomes as the incel thinks they are. Yeah but it's often weird stuff like tooth straightness. I mean it's socially self-reinforcing, thanks advertising and etc.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:34
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Pick posted:Yeah but it's often weird stuff like tooth straightness. I mean it's socially self-reinforcing, thanks advertising and etc. This is true, but sadly some sciences need to use proxies because they are trying to ask extremely complicated questions that can be extremely challenging to objectively analyze. Said the sociology graduate sadly trying to defend his area of study
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Nov 5, 2017 17:52
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Fartbox posted:This is really naive They can matter a lot in life, but not DEEPLY to any given individual to the point where a pleasantly average partner wouldn't be good enough, they will only fall in love with the most beautiful of men/women. You know, the extreme incels take it to. I'm not saying "looks don't matter" I totally agree, my boyfriend and I fell in love because we initially found each other hot Pick posted:Is this a thing we women even do? I remember once on the tram in Prague, I saw the most beautiful man I'd ever seen in my life, and I didn't immediately go "boy I want that guy to rail me RIGHT NOW" I thought "boy this would be a great time to be a talent scout or casting director." Haha sometimes, I was mostly making it as extreme as possible though. timefly fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 5, 2017 |
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Nov 5, 2017 18:05
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Improbable Lobster posted:Anyone can be gay or straight in this hosed up world add buckaroo to the end end it could be a chuck tingle tweet
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Nov 5, 2017 18:49
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