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Not to mention fire protection.
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Nov 4, 2017 21:54
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Duckbox posted:So when I see people talking about banning all smoking in state parks ... it doesn't sound like people are talking about the public good anymore Er, it kinda is about the public good when you're talking about state parks.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:07
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Duckbox posted:The anti smoking types have largely sidestepped the civil liberties question by making this about public health/welfare (which is why there's so much emphasis on second hand smoke). It's the old argument that your freedom to swing your fists stops at the viscinity of my face. I don't think people should smoke in restaurants, hospitals, schools, or airplanes, or even in their own home if it will hurt other people, but outdoor spaces are different and the evidence that people are harmed by someone smoking across the street just isn't there.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:53
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You know, treating cigarettes like any other drug wouldn't be a problem if we treated drug addiction in a sensible way. Don't criminalize people doing drugs personally (though you could still do something about when they harm other people with it, like public smoking, etc.), focus on harm reduction and getting people off their addiction safely over punishment, etc. But, since the way we treat addicts is horrific and inhumane, yeah, criminalizing smoking now would be a disaster. At best it would make poor people poorer, and give cops one more excuse to harass marginalized groups.
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Nov 4, 2017 23:04
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Trabisnikof posted:Banning smoking in state parks makes sense from a public heath and anti-littering perspective. It's moronic, actually. State parks are huge and mostly empty. Banning people from smoking outdoors on public land with no one around is barely a step away from outright criminalizing smoking. If they want to ban it in campgrounds and high traffic areas, they can at least justify that from a public health standpoint, but it's still unenforceable. People who smoke a pack a day aren't suddenly going to quit for the weekend because they went camping and the state park service doesn't have time to police that poo poo anyway. It's a recipe for discrimination and selective enforcement. PS littering is already illegal (and very selectively enforced) and not every smoker tosses butts willy nilly. Best argument against smoking in parks is wildfires, but education, advisement, and safe places to smoke are probably a better solution than a blanket ban people will ignore.
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Nov 4, 2017 23:43
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Trabisnikof posted:Banning smoking in state parks makes sense from a public heath and anti-littering perspective. It also makes sense from a loving wildfire perspective. We're one of the driest states in the Union. Discarded cigarette butts are a known factor in causing them and have nothing to do with any culture war bullshit. By the time you enforce a penalty for littering it's already turned into arson. Preventing people from doing it at all there is the best solution, because park rangers can force people to stop if they see them doing it.
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Nov 5, 2017 01:42
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Duckbox posted:It's moronic, actually. State parks are huge and mostly empty. Banning people from smoking outdoors on public land with no one around is barely a step away from outright criminalizing smoking. Its 1000 times easier to catch someone smoking vs catching someone not disposing their cigarettes properly. Way too many people just toss their butts. When you go to another state you find them all over the loving floor and you know it.
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Nov 5, 2017 06:11
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When I was kid, my dad's were all over our own lawn and patio. Smokers are horrible litterers and restricting smoking seems to be the only way to make them stop.
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Nov 5, 2017 08:12
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I genuinely never toss butts. I stub them out, put them back in the pack and chuck them as soon as I find a trash can. It's possible to be a smoker and an environmentalist at the same time. Sorry about your lovely dad.
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Nov 5, 2017 12:13
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Smokers are pretty uniformly self centered as far as failing to understand that the entire rest of the world is constantly cleaning up after them for their harmless personal freedoms. Even if ideally you were always cleaning up after yourself, you aren't cleaning the ashes, ash trays, or extra burden of filth out of the water/air we all drink/breathe; nor are you doing all the prep work necessary to have the sanitary little smoking areas for your habit. Cigarette smokers are just like alcoholics or any other addict; they just want what they want, and they don't really care about how others feel about it.
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Nov 5, 2017 12:45
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Duckbox posted:I genuinely never toss butts. I stub them out, put them back in the pack and chuck them as soon as I find a trash can. It's possible to be a smoker and an environmentalist at the same time. Sorry about your lovely dad. drat dude we're all constantly in awe at what a good person you are in spite of your many personal obstacles, but most people are not like you.
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Nov 5, 2017 12:46
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That reminds me I moved to rural Texas for a while and came back to California after the plastic bag bans started taking effect. There is a colossal [subjective, anecdotal] difference since those laws were put in place, especially in Bay Area streams. If only there were some sort of reusable cigarette that you could smoke over and over without generating trash and bad smells. Maybe, one day, technology will present a reasonable solution and we can no this debate once and for all. Until then cigs should be tax-free so that poor people can buy more from them and the small business tobacco companies can finally trickle down some money to their communities.
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Nov 5, 2017 16:29
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Duckbox posted:I genuinely never toss butts. I stub them out, put them back in the pack and chuck them as soon as I find a trash can. It's possible to be a smoker and an environmentalist at the same time. Sorry about your lovely dad. Great, are you going to pick up after all the other stupid assholes?
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Nov 5, 2017 16:53
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:That reminds me I moved to rural Texas for a while and came back to California after the plastic bag bans started taking effect. There is a colossal [subjective, anecdotal] difference since those laws were put in place, especially in Bay Area streams. CADEMS: we've got it! Tax credits for vapers!
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Nov 5, 2017 17:00
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Lycus posted:When I was kid, my dad's were all over our own lawn and patio. Smokers are horrible litterers and restricting smoking seems to be the only way to make them stop. $1 CRV on cigarette filters.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:01
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Just bring back designated smoking areas Jesus Christ. Charge them for the use and also pay the guy cleaning the area at the same time. That way you little dipshits can stay the gently caress away and smokers can get their smoke on away from you as well. I may have quit smoking but I didn't become a complete and utter rear end like some of you. And unlike the rest of you I understand that like drinking alcohol, you can't get rid of smoking tobacco. It's just not going to happen.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:11
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I may have quit smoking but I didn't become a complete and utter rear end like some of you. And unlike the rest of you I understand that like drinking alcohol, you can't get rid of smoking tobacco. It's just not going to happen. (a) It is unlawful for any person to drink any alcoholic beverage upon any public right-of-way (including the street, parkstrip, sidewalk and public property up to the private property line), lane, alley, public park and other public property unless the consumption of alcoholic beverages is expressly permitted for that location pursuant to a permit or ordinance and the consumption is in conformance with the terms of that permit or ordinance, or except as may be otherwise authorized by the city.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:40
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The Wiggly Wizard posted:That reminds me I moved to rural Texas for a while and came back to California after the plastic bag bans started taking effect. There is a colossal [subjective, anecdotal] difference since those laws were put in place, especially in Bay Area streams. You can't use ecigs indoors because the real cigarettes are bad to use indoors so therefore the electronic ones are just as bad so you can't use them indoors.
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Nov 5, 2017 17:45
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spunkshui posted:(a) It is unlawful for any person to drink any alcoholic beverage upon any public right-of-way (including the street, parkstrip, sidewalk and public property up to the private property line), lane, alley, public park and other public property unless the consumption of alcoholic beverages is expressly permitted for that location pursuant to a permit or ordinance and the consumption is in conformance with the terms of that permit or ordinance, or except as may be otherwise authorized by the city. Still can drink alcohol though. Just do the same with cigarettes and stop complaining about them.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:28
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Still can drink alcohol though. Just do the same with cigarettes and stop complaining about them. Cigarettes should banned in parks. Glad we agree.
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Nov 5, 2017 18:35
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spunkshui posted:Cigarettes should banned in parks. As long as they can smoke in their backyards/designated smoking area we cool. 
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Nov 5, 2017 18:44
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bumming your scene posted:You can't use ecigs indoors because the real cigarettes are bad to use indoors so therefore the electronic ones are just as bad so you can't use them indoors. I don’t want your dumb grape vapor clouds in my cafe either
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Nov 5, 2017 23:15
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You folks must be a hoot at parties
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Nov 5, 2017 23:36
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Ah, the old "if you don't smoke/drink you're not fun to be around" line.
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Nov 5, 2017 23:41
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Eddie Izzard: "There's no smoking in bars in California, and soon, no drinking and no talking." Goons: "That would be paradise." Other Goons: "This comedian is pointing out a serious and real trend, and when I heedlessly indulge my vices I am striking a blow for freedom."
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Nov 5, 2017 23:48
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Cup Runneth Over posted:drat dude we're all constantly in awe at what a good person you are in spite of your many personal obstacles, but most people are not like you. No smoking sucks and I really should quit (he phone posted while smoking a cigarette). My point isn't that I'm amazing. It's that fuckers in the thread are demonizing and stereotyping an entire class of people and y'all can take your culture war and shove it.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:05
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Duckbox posted:No smoking sucks and I really should quit (he phone posted while smoking a cigarette). Saying smoking should be banned in parks isn't demonizing smokers anymore than banning alcohol in parks is demonizing drinkers. It can be a good thing for society to restrict these activities in spaces like parks without it being secretly about a culture war.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:17
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Ah, the old "if you don't smoke/drink you're not fun to be around" line. it's more about the adversarial attitude towards it, not whether you yourself imbibe
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Nov 6, 2017 00:19
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The NIMBY thing is happening because people are now so economically insecure and crushed that their house is their only source of wealth. So they are hyper-sensitive to things that effect its value. I used to work in financial real estate and those multi family units all spread across LA are so over-valued because they are pre-existing. There is no way you could build such high density units in a lot of areas. The zoning really needs to be looked at.
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Nov 6, 2017 00:38
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Highbrow Slick posted:it's more about the adversarial attitude towards it, not whether you yourself imbibe What people who do partake do not understand is that it's burdensome to people who don't. People get adversarial towards you because you are unpleasant to be around. Duckbox posted:No smoking sucks and I really should quit (he phone posted while smoking a cigarette). I wasn't referring to your smoking but rather you not tossing your cigarette butts around willy-nilly. Again, this is not demonizing you for doing something, it is acknowledging a real and serious problem that has a ready solution. Sure you may have to enjoy the great outdoors while needing a fix, but that's better than someone burning them to the ground by carelessly tossing away a butt. It is not meant to attack you, but to protect nature (and the millions of taxpayer dollars we spend on firefighting, and the colossal property damage when a wildfire reaches a populated area). Cup Runneth Over fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 00:53
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Duckbox posted:demonizing and stereotyping an entire class of people Like the other two, have at it. Just dont do it where I have to breath it.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:16
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Honestly, smoking isn't even on the same level as alcohol. Nobody smokes just for fun, in controllable, reasonable amounts. No study says you should have a cigarette a week for the health benefits. The alcohol industry isn't wholly based around preying upon people to get them addicted to your product for life. Alcoholism is bad, but there's people who drink that aren't alcoholics. There's nobody who smokes that isn't a "smoker" -- even if you start smoking "socially," you're still gonna get hooked. For life, most likely.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:37
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Imagine being such a successful mark for advertisers that you identify as a luxury you consume and can only understand any public health, safety, or cleanliness regulations regarding that product as a malicious attack on you personally and on some 'class' of people like you united only by a shared affinity with the luxury you consume.
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 01:58
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it's easy to quit smoking just start chewing 
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Nov 6, 2017 02:00
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FRINGE posted:Smokers are not a "class" of people any more than alcoholics or junkies. Please, continue dehumanizing and othering persons with substance abuse issues. It does so much to ameliorate the issues associated with substance abuse and will definitely help those who have problematic patterns of substance use find ways to improve their life and address their problematic use.
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Nov 6, 2017 02:02
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anatoliy pltkrvkay posted:Please, continue dehumanizing and othering persons with substance abuse issues. You're right that we should treat nicotine addiction and other drug addicting substances like the public health problem they are. That means we need to massively expand our treatment and rehabilitation programs but that doesn't also mean we need to legalize shooting up in state parks either. edit: we should decriminalize drug use but doesn't automatically mean we should also make drug use allowed in all public spaces. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 02:08
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Honestly, smoking isn't even on the same level as alcohol. Nobody smokes just for fun, in controllable, reasonable amounts. No study says you should have a cigarette a week for the health benefits. The alcohol industry isn't wholly based around preying upon people to get them addicted to your product for life. Alcoholism is bad, but there's people who drink that aren't alcoholics. There's nobody who smokes that isn't a "smoker" -- even if you start smoking "socially," you're still gonna get hooked. For life, most likely. This, uh, isn't true. I don't really want to wade into the slapfight that's been going on here but smoking a very small number of cigarettes socially is absolutely a thing. I definitely won't say it's common, but it's not "nobody."
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Nov 6, 2017 02:31
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Cup Runneth Over posted:The alcohol industry isn't wholly based around preying upon people to get them addicted to your product for life. They kind of are though. They are pretty heavily reliant on sales to alcoholics, and the alcoholic beverage industry would greatly shrink in size if alcoholics only drank as much as everybody else. Edit: I would agree that there are more casual drinkers than casual smokers, but the distinction between drinking and smoking that you are drawing is not as clear as you are making it out to be. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 02:38
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VitalSigns posted:Imagine being such a successful mark for advertisers that you identify as a luxury you consume and can only understand any public health, safety, or cleanliness regulations regarding that product as a malicious attack on you personally and on some 'class' of people like you united only by a shared affinity with the luxury you consume. Okay, but we're talking about smoking, not "gamers".
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Nov 6, 2017 02:46
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Okay, but we're talking about smoking, not "gamers". Same phenomenon. Also throw gas guzzlers (roll coal!), guns, trans fats, etc on there
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Nov 6, 2017 02:50
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