|
Foglet posted:To be fair, even while I personally bounced off the Cypher System hard and far, he is pretty great in producing content which
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 17:19 |
|
|
''CAS has nothing to do with our writing workshop for female authors''
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
Chuck Wendig, fake ally. That's going to get a lot of traction. Really. Someone let me know when Green Ronin gets new management. I might put their kit back on my shopping list then.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:39
|
|
|
If he was involved in the contest there's nothing weird about having the numbers and contacting finalists*, but it means GR is lying. If he wasn't involved he shouldn't have had that data, which, if they were a UK compa y would land GR afoul of the data protection laws and their potentially company crippling fines. * not saying anything about the content of comms or the accusations as I have no reason to doubt them
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:51
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash, Oct 19, 2017 12:22 posted:At this point the fact that FFG is probably the most progressive TTRPG company simply by doing absolutely nothing on that front is really depressing. Peas and Rice, Oct 19, 2017 12:24 posted:I think Green Ronin is worth mentioning, especially Blue Rose. Bieeardo, Nov 9, 2017 09:39 posted:Someone let me know when Green Ronin gets new management. I might put their kit back on my shopping list then. Fuuuuck this hobby. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Nov 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:55
|
|
|
Starting to think that GW getting better was a monkey's paw deal. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 15:58
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Starting to think that GW getting better was a monkey's paw deal. It's monkey's paws all the way down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
And they're all groping people. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
ravenkult posted:Jaym Gates on her page is trying to paint Wendig (a writer dude that some of the victims talked through) as a ''fake white male ally'' that treated her badly by going public with the victims accounts. Because the right thing to do would be to be quiet and let Gates ''investigate'' these allegations. If you read back earlier, Wendig looks to have overeacted to Gates' initial response and then misrepresented what she said. She had a far better dicourse with one of the victims directly, than she did going via Wendig. Or, in short, gently caress Holden for making the whole thing more complicated that it should have been because of being a toxic piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
ravenkult posted:
Someone really needs to take away the social media keys.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:01
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Someone really needs to take away the social media keys. Well maybe if the magic deer picked a better PR head this wouldn't have happened.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
Bieeardo posted:Chuck Wendig, fake ally. That's going to get a lot of traction. Really. Yea this is a pretty huge let down for me. I love GR's stuff but if this is how they react to this kind of thing I'm not comfortable giving them money at least until they acknowledge what a poo poo response this is or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
PST posted:Or, in short, gently caress Holden for making the whole thing more complicated that it should have been because of being a toxic piece of poo poo. 🤔 When you think about it, perhaps Holden is the truest villain in this affair, by viciously manipulating Zeea and VLDarling into bringing up CA Suleiman's bad behavior in the first place, in a thread about bad behavior in the rpg industry. And then foully tricking Lindroos into bringing up the bad thing John Morke did in order to excuse the bad things CA Suleiman did, without addressing that Holden was not the person to bring up Suleiman in the first place. I for one, am going to give Green Ronin and CA Suleiman the benefit of a doubt here. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Nov 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:23
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:🤔 Lindroos absolutely used his popping up as a way to dodge looking at the issue closely, and GR is loving this up badly from there, and that's entirely on them. They should have done better, they have to do better, and gently caress them for not doing better. There was a short moment where the ratfucking Holden was up to might have been a justifiable reason that they were slow on the uptake, but that's long sailed now, and they keep digging their own hole deeper. EDIT: And at this point I don't think it's recoverable. At the very least some of the people at GR are actively engaged in what-aboutism and downplaying accusations to protect Suleiman, in a way that is far worse than Paizo's recent non-statements. Paizo was causing harm by refusing responsibility; some of the statements GR is putting out now are actively harmful in their own right. It's hard to read whats going on with Gates, because Wendig can be a bit hot under the collar and there are people who have had issues with him in the past, but at the absolute minimum no one at GR is coordinating with each other so whatever efforts Gates' is making are basically pointless. And it would just get worse from there. There was a point where shitcanning Suleiman and issuing a mea culpa could have at least stemmed the blood flow, but now I don't know what GR could do that would win back trust, short of its management having a total overhaul here. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Nov 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:That's a pretty malicious misread of the issue with Holden inserting himself into the mess. Because he definitely did. There was absolutely no need for him to do so, and considering his avowed statements - within a few posts of joining that thread! - that he'll shelter abusers who are his friends, the only way to read him shouldering his way in is to reduce the opprobrium he and Morke are getting and so richly deserve. To be honest the more likely reason for him to join in on making GBS threads on Suleiman is him having beef with OPP and wanting any reason to throw shade on them because of their prior dealings with said Sulei-man. He's been pretty frank that Morke is a fuckup, and that so is he for continuing to be buddies with him in spite of that. I mean, it's not terribly hard to understand why, because he's only human, but I'd appreciate if this whole thing didn't revolve around separate fuckups trying to appear holier than thou in comparison to other fuckups. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Nov 9, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:50
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:To be honest the more likely reason for him to join in on making GBS threads on Suleiman is him having beef with OPP and wanting any reason to throw shade on them because of their prior dealings with Suleiman, because he's been more than frank that Morke is a fuckup and so is he for continuing to be buddies with him. I refer you to the rear end himself, here and here. You want to call that "being more than frank" about the issue, then have at.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:He's been more than frank that he doesn't actually think Morke did anything seriously wrong, and that he's happy to shelter people like Morke when their his friends, and the only people he'll call out are ones he doesn't like for other reasons. Yeah man, that's what I meant. He's being incredibly, weirdly honest about how his behavior is hypocritical.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
My industry (venture capital) has been going through a wave of brave people raising complaints and identifying abusers lately, too. It's as distressing as it is to see it in the RPG industry, but at least the corporate statements are better.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:08
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:Yeah man, that's what I meant. He's being incredibly, weirdly honest about how his behavior is hypocritical. And GR has firmly earned the most at this point - well, other than Suleiman, who is clearly a sentient garbage pile. They've gone from not managing a situation competently, to engaging in a what-aboutism campaign of their own, to whatever this catastrophe they've created is now, in what, two or three days? And there's even a situation specific example as to what the correct reaction should have been. HWA maybe should have been looking into it sooner, but they moved quick and did exactly the right thing when victims spoke up. It's not exactly something to laud them for, but it's worth recognizing that they did do the right thing, without fussing over it. That GR not only failed to follow their example, but is criticizing them for it, is downright gross.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:11
|
|
|
I think Holden is lowballing Morke's actions because it makes him feel better about their decades-long friendship, and failing to see how that makes him an rear end. It's understandable - gently caress's sake, I count myself friends with McFarland *and* Suleiman and have been reading the accusations with a certain sense of horror. But never put it past Holden to spin it in his own mind to the Industry - especially OPP and this place - being out to get him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
Dave Brookshaw posted:I think Holden is lowballing Morke's actions because it makes him feel better about their decades-long friendship, and failing to see how that makes him an rear end. It's understandable - gently caress's sake, I count myself friends with McFarland *and* Suleiman and have been reading the accusations with a certain sense of horror. But never put it past Holden to spin it in his own mind to the Industry - especially OPP and this place - being out to get him. Having been in that place, though, I'm pretty comfortable with calling out the difference between your apparent reaction and the one I had - horror, and trying to asses whether we should have known and dealing with the inherent hypocrisy of assuring ourselves we didn't while never being sure if we should have - and the reaction of pretending that it wasn't that bad as a salve for one's own conscience. The latter is still understandable, but compounds the existing harm and creates more, and has to be called out, and earns its own denunciation when it gets doubled down on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:21
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:Yeah man, that's what I meant. He's being incredibly, weirdly honest about how his behavior is hypocritical. He's being weirdly honest about his hypocrisy, but believes that him being honest about it excuses it. And gives him room to criticize other hypocrites without actually taking efforts to correct his own behavior.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:I wouldn't exactly call that honest, I'd call that deflection. I really don't know what you're trying to get at here. It's not like there isn't enough appropriate ire to go around for the players involved. I largely agree with your initial post to me! I just attribute Holden getting involved in the criticism of Suleiman in an effort to poo poo on OPP because of his grudge rather than any attempt to justify or whitewash Morke's actions. It's semantics and not really worth arguing about otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Starting to think that GW getting better was a monkey's paw deal. Marking the days until it turns out Duncan did something bad. Please no.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
I'm really disappointed that GR a) didn't just sever and call it good, and b) keeps digging. It almost reads like they're defensively drunk/angerposting at this point. Hey, at least Arc Dream aren't a bunch of slimebags, right? Right??
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
Peas and Rice posted:Hey, at least Arc Dream aren't a bunch of slimebags, right? Right??
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
My only real contribution to this is this: When someone you have a professional relationship with behaves unacceptably badly, you have a professional obligation to sever the relationship to ensure that your business isn't damaged by that behavior. Personal relationships, however, don't work by the same rules. (This is one reason why going into business with your friends often leads to disaster.) Anyway, Holden has already severed his professional relationship, and while he's making it really difficult to defend him by calling John's behavior "inappropriate flirting" instead of... almost anything else... this conversation is really kind of gross because you guys are essentially demanding that he denounce John in terms that will amount to severing his relationship with somebody who is quite possibly his only real-life friend. That's not something you have a right to demand or even to expect. (Like, it's hard to ignore that TG is obviously more interested in tag-teaming the people they had previous grudges against even when they are not the actual people who committed crimes.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:My only real contribution to this is this: Incorrect, you shouldn't be friends with lovely people and if you find out someone is a lovely person you should stop being friends with them
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:My only real contribution to this is this: As for severing connections with predators who happen to be close personal friends, guess what? I've done it. It's called being a loving adult and doing the right thing. And even if there's some extenuating circumstance for not severing, it does not in any way, shape, or form justify compounding the harm by continuing to minimize what happened.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:25
|
|
|
It's also a lot easier to make friends when you don't actively keep repugnant company. Hopefully he'll discover this!
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Comrade Gorbash posted:As for severing connections with predators who happen to be close personal friends, guess what? I've done it. It's called being a loving adult and doing the right thing. 100% motherfucking this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Y'know, it'd be way easier for him to just stop talking. Also you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Don’t forget Chuck Wendig, CA Suleiman, and probably Holden were all working at White Wolf at the same time, so there might be some bad blood there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
I don't like the suggestions that Wendig did anything wrong here. All he did is amplify the message when victims contacted him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 19:56
|
|
|
Pretty much-- I'm not concerned with the absolute purity of anyone who's amplified these criticisms. I mostly want Holden to cut it out because he's being a loving hypocrite, and that sentiment seems to have become more of a headline than Suleiman himself.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:03
|
|
|
Yeah basically if your friend is being outed as a sexual predator of some variety, and you decide you're going to stay friends with him anyway, that's your prerogative. The mistake is in posting about it publicly, and that mistake is compounded when it reflects on your professional contacts/company/employer/employees/customers. And the double-mistake is using weasel-language to diminish the seriousness of the accusations while publicly announcing you'll be retaining that friendship.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
Adept Nightingale posted:Pretty much-- I'm not concerned with the absolute purity of anyone who's amplified these criticisms. I mostly want Holden to cut it out because he's being a loving hypocrite, and that sentiment seems to have become more of a headline than Suleiman himself. In Wendig's case all I've heard to date falls into "is an rear end in a top hat" territory, specifically to romance writers. That has its own can of worms, of course, but definitely doesn't excuse Green Ronin's response. Noting the bad blood possibility is something that can go the other way though - if Suleiman was bad mouthing Wendig to Green Ronin while working there, well. Still not an excuse for Green Ronin, but speaks to how people like Suleiman often lay the groundwork to keep themselves protected.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
Any links on that Wendig stuff? Never heard anything.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:21
|
|
|
ravenkult posted:Any links on that Wendig stuff? Never heard anything. As per usual if there's more that I've missed, believe those sources rather than my limited summary.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 17:19 |
|
|
Green Ronin has put out a new statement, and one by someone who at least realizes the last one looked bad.quote:Yesterday, Green Ronin’s leadership made a statement about allegations regarding the freelance developer of The Lost Citadel. https://greenronin.com/blog/2017/11/09/a-followup-and-clarification-to-yesterdays-statement/
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2017 20:48
|
|