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them waiting for wayne to tell them to evacuate when there's death & chaos a block away is still dumb and cracks me up tho nah. basically it's just a dumb meme now. vvvvvvvv
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Nov 13, 2017 04:09
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Punkin Spunkin posted:checks out. There are plenty of reasons to criticize BvS but the whole MARTHA thing is some willfully dumb comic book movie reviewer hot take poo poo ala the people who were like BEN GRIMM GOT MOLESTED AS A CHILD in the last failed Fantastic Four movie attempt. When a shitload of unrelated people have the same reaction to something, maybe there's something there. Not this "everyone's dumb but me" explanation. When I watched that scene, my reaction was "what?.... what?" followed by confused disappointment.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:09
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Poorly executed? Sure. but lol if that scene in your punchman v punchman movie actually genuinely confused you then yes it may just be dumb people. i watched that poo poo high as gently caress off edibles and it still wasn't hard to follow. maybe that helped.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:15
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The part that confused me was the existence of the scene altogether. I just can't fathom someone creating that and saying "yeah, that's good." Or I'm wondering how any focus group audiences let that scene go. For what's supposed to be the ultimate climax of the battle, it came off like a wet fart. That scene was supposed to be the payoff, and it was certainly not that
SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 04:17
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Yeah, it's a little clumsy but it's a good payoff. I like it. It's dumb how meme-ified it's become. Although, I did like that "Mothra..." "HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT NAME?!" joke about the upcoming Kong vs. Godzilla movie.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:18
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Punkin Spunkin posted:Maybe hearing his mom's name, realizing Clark was also a being with a mother and not some evil exotic thing, etc. brings him into a moment of reflection and realization in regards to the actions he's taken and how far gone he is? More specifically, that in that moment, he *is* Joe Chill. He's become the same blindly destructive force of malice that destroyed his youth. It sucks that Snyder got preoccupied with the "same name" idea, because conceptually that scene totally deserves the dramatic weight it has. But it's a failure of execution, not of concept. The idea is not at all ridiculous.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:23
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LesterGroans posted:Yeah, it's a little clumsy but it's a good payoff. I like it. It's dumb how meme-ified it's become. It's a silly scene. For every reason stated. Doesn't mean it can work for you though. Like, a lot of people hate Chappie, but it worked for me, even the end which is kind of dumb and doesn't make a whole lot of sense, still holds up in an endearing way. I just think there's something awkward about all of it. I get the point, but I feel like if he said mom, that'd be more powerful. And yeah, conventional. "THEY'RE GOING TO KILL M-MOM!" "I'll kill your Alien mother after I'm done with you." "M-Martha Ke-ee-eennn- Batman pauses. He remembers. The memories flood back. "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!!???" Same scene, just with a little more...normalcy? It's just...odd the way it's presented, why would Superman just straight up say Martha? It's like they didn't want the obvious thing, so they used this really odd connection to bring it all together. It just does not work for me,.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:36
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Punkin Spunkin posted:them waiting for wayne to tell them to evacuate when there's death & chaos a block away is still dumb and cracks me up tho It makes sense that Bruce Wayne, Megacapitalist, would be super lovely about leaving work early
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Nov 13, 2017 04:45
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CelticPredator posted:It's a silly scene. For every reason stated. Doesn't mean it can work for you though. Like, a lot of people hate Chappie, but it worked for me, even the end which is kind of dumb and doesn't make a whole lot of sense, still holds up in an endearing way. I agree in that the scene needs a little more finessing maybe? Or even just cut the "why did you say that name?" and leave it to flashes to Martha Wayne. It makes sense to me why he'd say 'Martha', but it does add an extra little mental connection people have to make. I just don't find it silly so that being one of the big, goofy takeaways has always been odd to me. Chappie rules.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:50
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In Justice League we learn that after recovering from her ordeal Martha Wayne ditched her kid/millionaire lifestyle, moved to the middle of nowhere and married Pa Kent and the BvS is retroactively Bruce at last acknowledging this truth.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:00
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I remember reacting more to the way Batman acted. The concept of Superman's mother's name jolting some humanity back into Batman is fine, it was just the specific way they had Affleck perform it.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:32
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CelticPredator posted:It's a silly scene. For every reason stated. Doesn't mean it can work for you though. Like, a lot of people hate Chappie, but it worked for me, even the end which is kind of dumb and doesn't make a whole lot of sense, still holds up in an endearing way. you know that everyone would bitch about superman sounding like an 8 year old boy if he said "mom" instead of "martha". Plus, we know from MoS that he's more of a "my mother" type from that scene where he punches the poo poo out of Zod.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:33
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DC Murderverse posted:you know that everyone would bitch about superman sounding like an 8 year old boy if he said "mom" instead of "martha". Plus, we know from MoS that he's more of a "my mother" type from that scene where he punches the poo poo out of Zod. Crossposting something I wrote a few months back in BSS. Man, forum search feature is so much better than I remember it lmao. teagone posted:Yeah, maybe they should have had Clark break down during that scene or something. Anguished in defeat, face in tears, while saying "You're letting Luthor kill my mother. Her name... is Martha... Kent. Find her. You can kill me, but Luthor will kill my mom either way. It makes no difference to him. You can kill me, but please, save her." Something to that effect, while showing Bruce having that same kind of reaction Anton Ego did in Ratatouille when he remembered when his mom used to make him ratatouille as a kid.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:47
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Maybe it was just the build-up, but when I finally saw that scene it didn't seem weird at all  People make it out to be The Room levels of awkward and it just can't live up to that.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:48
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I've watched the ultimate cut of BvS at least 5 times now, and yeah, the scene doesn't bother me AS much anymore. The bigger issue I have with it is Cavill's line delivery.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:49
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teagone posted:Crossposting something I wrote a few months back in BSS. Man, forum search feature is so much better than I remember it lmao. batman was beating the poo poo out of him, he didn't really have time for a whole speech edit: Hodgepodge posted:Maybe it was just the build-up, but when I finally saw that scene it didn't seem weird at all it is the "WELCOME TA EARF" of comic book movies.
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Nov 13, 2017 05:58
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Superman could've had time for anything the writers wanted. It's not like the scene happened right in front of the cameras without any process. Someone wrote it and directed it that way, and to me it IS kind of Room level, Alien POV awkward. Not fully, but it just seems so odd that they chose Martha to be the driving point.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:02
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DC Murderverse posted:batman was beating the poo poo out of him, he didn't really have time for a whole speech Jumble the line up with gurgling/choking noises and make Batman have his Anton Ego moment after Clark says Martha, while making the rest of what Clark says like a muffled echo as Bruce is thrust into his PTSD flashback.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:05
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Hodgepodge posted:Maybe it was just the build-up, but when I finally saw that scene it didn't seem weird at all I had a very similar experience watching MoS with the scene where Superman kills Zod. It didn't live up to the anti-hype.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:25
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teagone posted:Jumble the line up with gurgling/choking noises and make Batman have his Anton Ego moment after Clark says Martha, while making the rest of what Clark says like a muffled echo as Bruce is thrust into his PTSD flashback. It would still sound really weird given the circumstances. And just a few minutes early, Batman said he didn't give a poo poo for Superman's parents.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:26
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teagone posted:Crossposting something I wrote a few months back in BSS. Man, forum search feature is so much better than I remember it lmao. That wouldn't have worked. Batman was completely ready and willing to kill a good old boy who loved his mom; it's why he talked about how he bet Superman's parents told him he was special, etc. What Batman wasn't ready for was to be accused of letting his own mom die, and to realize that his victim had the exact same dying word as his dad.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:47
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The "Martha" line could have been OK if it was just presented differently. People hate it not for the basic concept but the ham-fisted execution.
Kurzon fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 09:03
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If only Cavill had grown that moustache earlier he could have "spontaneously" sprouted it in that scene and it would have had the same effect. "Save... Moustache!"
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Nov 13, 2017 10:18
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Deeply suspicious whenever something in a comic book movie is described as 'silly'. The man is dressed as a bat.
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Nov 13, 2017 10:43
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josh04 posted:The man is dressed as a bat. I can dig it.
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Nov 13, 2017 10:46
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CelticPredator posted:Superman could've had time for anything the writers wanted. It's not like the scene happened right in front of the cameras without any process. Someone wrote it and directed it that way, and to me it IS kind of Room level, Alien POV awkward. Not fully, but it just seems so odd that they chose Martha to be the driving point. This is just a more roundabout way of saying "do my fanfic version". And I mean, you've repeatedly admitted you're an actual NOT MY SUPERMAN for real so
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Nov 13, 2017 11:53
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The Dark Knight Returns Superman fight is fifty times better than the BVS fight, and also makes a ton more sense with a lot more at stake than "Mark Zuckerberg told me I have to kill you, so here I am I guess."
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Nov 13, 2017 12:01
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doesn't that fight end with batman faking a heart attack using a magic heart-attack-faking potion he developed off-page
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Nov 13, 2017 12:14
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josh04 posted:doesn't that fight end with batman faking a heart attack using a magic heart-attack-faking potion he developed off-page Yup, it's awesome.
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Nov 13, 2017 12:40
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McSpanky posted:This is just a more roundabout way of saying "do my fanfic version". And I mean, you've repeatedly admitted you're an actual NOT MY SUPERMAN for real so I don't have a Superman. I've never read a Superman comic in my whole life. I just think Snyder's take is a bad hero. Like a satire character....except he isn't. It's weird. Anyway. No. My point was I always find it weird when people add logic to a scene when it was crafted to be designed that way. And also didn't have to be if the filmmakers chose not too. "Well you see, Superman didn't have time to do such and such because..." Yeah he did. If someone wanted him too. They didn't so that's that. I don't have to like it and can argue why it didn't work.
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Nov 13, 2017 12:49
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josh04 posted:Deeply suspicious whenever something in a comic book movie is described as 'silly'. The man is dressed as a bat. This statement is silly. Bats don't wear clothes.
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Nov 13, 2017 13:21
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CelticPredator posted:Superman could've had time for anything the writers wanted. It's not like the scene happened right in front of the cameras without any process. Someone wrote it and directed it that way, and to me it IS kind of Room level, Alien POV awkward. Not fully, but it just seems so odd that they chose Martha to be the driving point. It's in large part an origin story for Snyder's version of Batman, that's why they chose to use Martha in this way. It refocuses Batman/Bruce's motivations, compared to other versions of the character, to a very specific part of the trauma from when he was a young boy. So not merely losing his parents, but specifically what affected him in how he lost his parents. Contrast this with Batman Begins' exposition about Bruce's father and then subsequently the many shots throughout the film that show Bruce destroying his father's legacy in Gotham. Here, Snyder visually communicates the trauma while very little has to be spoken about why this is bothering Bruce/Batman. This is why when Superman says "You're letting them kill Martha", the film cuts to scenes that show an analepsis that conveys Bruce's racing thoughts shot by shot. The flowers, the gravestone where the bouquet is placed, the eyelevel shot of the instrument that will kill Bruce's parents, Bruce's father's gloved hand that goes from shielding Bruce to the instant he rushes forward (Bruce's vigilantism is an attempt to redirect guilt and redeem this moment in his life, to correct the fact his father wasn't strong enough), and the traumatic moment fully plays out. We never see it reflected upon in such vulnerability until Superman utters a phrase that shows how overdetermined this single moment in Bruce's life is. "Why did you say that name?" The miracle, in a story involving a God as Man, is that it is a coincidence that these men's mothers both shared the same name, but a viewer should intuit that reading it as a coincidence is a mistake. It accomplishes many things at once, one of those things being Batman's origin without the typical trappings of an origin story. We don't need to see the first time Batman punched a criminal, we instead see the first time Batman has to consider something about what his "heroics" are accomplishing. If the scene doesn't work for people, I think they aren't able to entertain the idea of said coincidence's significance as a narrative device. Among all the other things said in defense of the scene. Saying the scene is odd, specifically that "It's odd they chose Martha" just confuses me because it really isn't apparent to me what is odd about this. Corrosion fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 13:43
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Corrosion posted:The miracle, in a story involving a God as Man, is that it is a coincidence that these men's mothers both shared the same name, but a viewer should intuit that reading it as a coincidence is a mistake. I agree with everything you said in your post, and just wanted to add that the Martha scene is very closely following the story of Longinus, the Roman soldier who denounced Christ on the cross as not the son of God and pierced him with a spear, before experiencing a (non-specified) revelation and converting. From Batman's point of view, he's mocking his defeated opponent as a fraud, and about to strike the killing blow, when suddenly he speaks this unknowable truth: that Batman let his mother die. He can't possibly know that, or know that it's the one thing he could say that would shake Batman from his course, and it appears as divine intervention.
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Nov 13, 2017 13:58
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josh04 posted:Deeply suspicious whenever something in a comic book movie is described as 'silly'. The man is dressed as a bat. josh04 posted:doesn't that fight end with batman faking a heart attack using a magic heart-attack-faking potion he developed off-page I remember trying to describe that fight to my dad. I didn't get past "Superman had just been nuked, so he was weaker than normal." The fight also features Green Arrow firing a Kryptonite arrow, which is at least a clever pun. But very silly. Superheroes are very silly.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:00
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Hey, I made no qualitative judgement on it. DKR is good fun, bit fash though.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:04
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josh04 posted:I agree with everything you said in your post, and just wanted to add that the Martha scene is very closely following the story of Longinus, the Roman soldier who denounced Christ on the cross as not the son of God and pierced him with a spear, before experiencing a (non-specified) revelation and converting. Well I definitely didn't know that, so I appreciate it.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:07
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josh04 posted:doesn't that fight end with batman faking a heart attack using a magic heart-attack-faking potion he developed off-page Yup. He gets one good punch in before incompetently faking his death.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:26
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CelticPredator posted:I don't have a Superman. I've never read a Superman comic in my whole life. I just think Snyder's take is a bad hero. Like a satire character....except he isn't. It's weird. LOL dude, you don't have a Superman, you just feel things "deep in the depths of your soul" when you watch Superman on film. That comes from the aether of your Good Movie Sense of course, not like everyone else who clearly have preconceived notions to uphold. As to your other point, people are arguing from within the narrative construction because that's how verisimilitude is established. The level of change you want would destroy either the physical or emotional reality established by the scene and setting. In other words, it'd be hacky plot hole bullshit.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:27
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I feel the issue people have is not so much the melodrama and for some reason finding Cavil's Superman off-putting.Which, granted, is something Snyder was going for but he can come off as creepy and so the the emotional punch just doesn't land. People tend to joke about the Empire Strikes Back scene for similar cornyness but it goes down better because Luke is more well liked.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:32
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Yup. He gets one good punch in before incompetently faking his death. Your version of the comic sounds pretty boring. That's not at all what happens though. He even has a whole speech about putting fear into Superman before literally booting him to the ground, telling Superman to remember that he was beaten by a mere man. Then he fakes a heart attack.
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Nov 13, 2017 14:33
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