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platzapS posted:In exciting factional news, Spark Caucus decided it was basically the same as Refoundation and voted to dissolve/merge into the latter. If you're a DSA Marxist who wants a clean break from the Democrats, Refoundation is the place to be. this owns i also suggest anyone in the DSA who agrees with the points of unity join Refoundation, it's Good!
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Nov 15, 2017 01:10
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Refoundation is indeed very good, and all who agree with the PoUs should join.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:27
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Goon Danton posted:Our meeting last night was packed! Electoral victory and positive news coverage of our brake light clinic probably helped a bit. I even managed to convince a friend to come along, and she signed up for the femsoc working group almost immediately. Operation Radicalize All My Friends is underway! Also John Fetterman is running for Lt Governor of PA; I hear he is a socialist, but I hear mixed things about him at DSA meetings. Never bothered to ask though so anyone here have the scoop on him?
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Nov 15, 2017 02:06
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:i put it in the queue so my dumb rear end decided to buy a new avatar, please could my terribly dumb rear end have the tag again? throw my dumb rear end on the back of the list for a couple of weeks, i apologize for undoing the work you did in giving me my bad rear end gangtag
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Nov 15, 2017 03:14
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"What made you finally sign up for monthly dues paying" "a fully sick king-killing gang tag on the SA forums" "what"  anyway if you could throw me in the pile i'd appreciate it thank yew
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Nov 15, 2017 03:32
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Agean90 posted:born in a mountain Funnily enough, Marx didn't like George's Single Tax because he thought it was a step backwards, dialectically. Marx thought enclosure of the commons was a necessary evil to transition from mercantilism to capitalism Not that that matters since that national focus tree ends with "Syndicalism with American Characteristics", you loving revisionist Serf posted:it starts with shared commiseration. figure out what problems you have in common with the other person and relate how capitalism is causing them Also try not to focus to hard on jargon or specifically trying to get someone to Socialism immediately. It's much easier to convince someone (preferably close to you) that the status quo (Capitalism) isn't working for them because it's currently working as intended. Once they figure that out, it's not as hard to make the leap to the alternative, socialism.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:38
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Dreddout posted:Funnily enough, Marx didn't like George's Single Tax because he thought it was a step backwards, dialectically. Marx thought enclosure of the commons was a necessary evil to transition from mercantilism to capitalism i really need to try weltkrieg some time
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Nov 15, 2017 03:44
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hello put me in the king killing association too plsTaintrunner posted:
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Nov 15, 2017 03:48
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Dreddout posted:Also try not to focus to hard on jargon or specifically trying to get someone to Socialism immediately. It's much easier to convince someone (preferably close to you) that the status quo (Capitalism) isn't working for them because it's currently working as intended. Once they figure that out, it's not as hard to make the leap to the alternative, socialism. yeah this part is important. just talk like a regular rear end person. this is way easier if you happen to be a huge dumbass like me
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Nov 15, 2017 04:01
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Goddamn it where is my old confirmation email when I signed up for the DSA?!
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Nov 15, 2017 05:32
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I got my card today, at least a couple months after I signed up. Nice.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:45
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ScrubLeague posted:I got my card today, at least a couple months after I signed up. Nice. IIRC it took about 10 weeks for mine
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Nov 15, 2017 05:48
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I got mine in about 2 weeks. 
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Nov 15, 2017 06:26
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platzapS posted:Hell yes, glad you persisted. If you think the problem was on their end let them know--I've found the tech people to be pretty responsive. I really hope these idiots aren't successful in destroying the DSA
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Nov 15, 2017 07:55
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*looks at the wasteland of useless third parties in america* "the key to success is being a third party!!"
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Nov 15, 2017 07:56
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refoundation is not attempting to immediately turn the DSA into a registered third party like the greens, with all the tax implications and bullshit thereof. we're well aware of the issue with the greens and the current electoral system where a ton of their effort is wasted just getting on the ballot. the idea is more to transition away from the DSA as purely an activist organization that in a lot of ways supports the democratic party (essentially what the harrington viewpoint became) and into a more broad based labor party - if that's not clear i highly suggest reading this position paper, i agree with most of it: https://dsarefoundation.org/2017/10/17/the-dsa-and-a-new-electoral-strategy/ it's more "run as open socialists under the democratic party when necessary, run as independents when plausible" when electoral politics makes sense as a strategy we are ultimately revolutionary marxists, however, and we don't think that the democratic party can be reformed - whenever the left is strong enough in the united states we will have to break from them entirely. it's a capitalist party, it's controlled by capitalists, and by the structure they have set up they always will be. they literally just expelled a ton of the berniecrats in their organization moreover we don't think that we're going to be able to vote in enough socialists to the house of representatives or whatever to overthrow capitalism - we don't see the limits of socialism as bringing back the new deal, but rather as a fundamental restructuring of how the average person relates to economic power again i'd ask you to read that paper as well as the program, because i think you have an idea of refoundation that isn't totally fair
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Nov 15, 2017 08:09
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*looks at 150 years of failed reformist and soc-dem movements* "the key to success is being reformist Dems!" I really hope these idiots aren't successful in destroying the DSA E: Listen to Yandat who is far better at words than my passive-aggressive sniping, sorry Crazycryodude has issued a correction as of 08:21 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 08:10
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E: Nvm
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Nov 15, 2017 08:16
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isn't the DNC controlled by whoever is pres at the time if the dems take the WH? afaik that's how it works and how Obama left it to to/handed it over to the Clinton's, if Bernie wins I don't think he'll turn the dems party into a socialist party, but I can see some major reforms in how the whole process works, pass laws to get money out of politics, get an actual socialist pres in 2024 or 2028, by then the dsa or whatever is the big socialist org at that point will be able to split or restructure the Democratic party completely through reforms, taking over and restructuring state parties and local politics I don't know if that's what will happen but it seems more probable than violent revolution ending in a socialist state
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Nov 15, 2017 08:19
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imo assume comrades are in good faith, be patient etc i try to save "eat my hole and die in a house fire" for twitter
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Nov 15, 2017 08:19
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Ace of Baes posted:isn't the DNC controlled by whoever is pres at the time if the dems take the WH? afaik that's how it works and how Obama left it to to/handed it over to the Clinton's, if Bernie wins I don't think he'll turn the dems party into a socialist party, but I can see some major reforms in how the whole process works, pass laws to get money out of politics, get an actual socialist pres in 2024 or 2028, by then the dsa or whatever is the big socialist org at that point will be able to split or restructure the Democratic party completely through reforms, taking over and restructuring state parties and local politics buddy if sanders wins or a socialist somehow gets to the top and succeeds in implementing reforms like that, i'm totally willing to change the strategy, it'd be stupid not to. no one could have predicted where we are now even three years ago. i'm cynical though in that i have my doubts it'll happen while the insane clintonites have the money and power backing them in their control of the democrats also just to be clear, we're not advocating for a violent revolution - only in as much as the changes to the economy, social revolution, and reducing future climate change and mitigating the current effects - might not go over well. i don't think we should pretend that slapping some regulations on the capitalist system will be sufficient for the challenges humanity faces, or that confronting those challenges won't be opposed by the capitalist class. an overthrow of the prevailing order doesn't have to be some insanely destructive war though, and i hope it won't be!
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Nov 15, 2017 08:27
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Ace of Baes posted:isn't the DNC controlled by whoever is pres at the time if the dems take the WH? afaik that's how it works and how Obama left it to to/handed it over to the Clinton's, if Bernie wins I don't think he'll turn the dems party into a socialist party, but I can see some major reforms in how the whole process works, pass laws to get money out of politics, get an actual socialist pres in 2024 or 2028, by then the dsa or whatever is the big socialist org at that point will be able to split or restructure the Democratic party completely through reforms, taking over and restructuring state parties and local politics yeah statements like Yandat posted:it's a capitalist party, it's controlled by capitalists, and by the structure they have set up they always will be. represent a fundamental misunderstanding of and lack of attempt to understand/engage in the democratic party. not to mention that viable third parties are a long long way off and the dems are the only vehicle to make them. by the time we reached the point of being able to split, the democratic party would be so overtaken by us that there'd be no reason to form a third party Crazycryodude posted:*looks at 150 years of failed reformist and soc-dem movements* "the key to success is being reformist Dems!" i snipe here so i don't snipe irl tbqh ninja edit: im also still mad at yandat for abandoning his cat 😾
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Nov 15, 2017 08:31
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if the democratic party had the kind of mechanisms the labour party did in allowing some reform, sure. but the democratic party has locked itself down even further post-primary. there's nothing we can do resembling a corbyn strategy. they have no internal elections and every time progressive movements have tried to change the democratic party they always get coopted, subsumed, then thrown under the bus. it's wasted energy on an institution unique to america and uniquely resilient to popular force
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Nov 15, 2017 08:38
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Yandat posted:if the democratic party had the kind of mechanisms the labour party did in allowing some reform, sure. but the democratic party has locked itself down even further post-primary. there's nothing we can do resembling a corbyn strategy. and every time progressive movements have tried to change the democratic party they always get coopted, subsumed, then thrown under the bus. it's wasted energy on an institution unique to america and uniquely resilient to popular force Have you done any work at all with your local or state level dems? Did you vote in the most recent DEC elections for your county? How competitive are those elections?
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Nov 15, 2017 08:44
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big black turnout posted:Have you done any work at all with your local or state level dems? Did you vote in the most recent DEC elections for your county? How competitive are those elections? texas. the dems here are horrible and can eat my hole and die in a house fire
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Nov 15, 2017 08:48
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Yandat posted:texas. the dems here are horrible and can eat my hole and die in a house fire tbf you live in austin which is a neoliberal hellpit. move up to wilco with me where the dems will gladly bankroll your campaign and block walk/phone bank for you if you let them slap a (D) next to your name. they're still lovely centrists but they're lovely centrists who have no choice but to listen to us.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:52
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Syndlig posted:tbf you live in austin which is a neoliberal hellpit. move up to wilco with me where the dems will gladly bankroll your campaign and block walk/phone bank for you if you let them slap a (D) next to your name. they're still lovely centrists but they're lovely centrists who have no choice but to listen to us. that's why i think it's entirely good to use dem resources where plausible but the national org will always betray socialists in the end
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Nov 15, 2017 08:53
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Yandat posted:texas. the dems here are horrible and can eat my hole and die in a house fire Would be kinda funny if Texas turned actual red instead of purple. I lean more towards the "coopt the Dems" strategy but you make a good point. If the Democratic party keeps insisting on poo poo-eating corporate centrism in 2024 then they're through as a party and I'll be all-in on Refoundation.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:55
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Would be kinda funny if Texas turned actual red instead of purple. I lean more towards the "coopt the Dems" strategy but you make a good point. If the Democratic party keeps insisting on poo poo-eating corporate centrism in 2024 then they're through as a party and I'll be all-in on Refoundation. it's already p bad https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/10/dnc-purge-sanders-ellison-perez-rules-committee convinced they learn nothing
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Nov 15, 2017 08:57
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the Texas democratic party is almost completely worthless
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Nov 15, 2017 08:58
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Yandat posted:texas. the dems here are horrible and can eat my hole and die in a house fire Florida, my dude, but nice excuse. We kicked them out in our county and replaced them with the local Bernie organizers. Then we turned out more door knockers than any other county in the state and won local elections in 80% republican districts. Then we went to the state convention and got voter reenfranchisement and health care as a right added to the state platform. In a year. You claim that it's impossible to change the party, that it's too difficult, but you haven't even tried. And then you go on to claim you'll accomplish something even more difficult? Forgive my skepticism, but this reminds me more and more of this quote Lenin - Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder posted:Lengthy, painful and sanguinary experience has taught us the truth that revolutionary tactics cannot be built on a revolutionary mood alone. Tactics must be based on a sober and strictly objective appraisal of allthe class forces in a particular state (and of the states that surround it, and of all states the world over) as well as of the experience of revolutionary movements. It is very easy to show one’s “revolutionary” temper merely by hurling abuse at parliamentary opportunism, or merely by repudiating participation in parliaments; its very ease, however, cannot turn this into a solution of a difficult, a very difficult, problem.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:59
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it's also easy to copy paste an out of context lenin quote in the service of working within an explicitly capitalist and imperialist party. imagine joining the dsa, finding yourself on the right wing of it, then coming at anyone to your left as being unpragmatic. you're coming off as disingenuous at this point but it's late so i'm going to stop there
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Nov 15, 2017 09:07
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all im saying is that 100% of the people I've interacted with who have said it's impossible to work within the democratic party have never even tried. and most of them advocate for things that require working within the party. I don't understand how you think you're going to accomplish these things through a party that you refuse to engage with, and I'm not sure how that's being disingenuous edit: also I'd be curious to see where in the platform it "explicitly" requires the party to be capitalist and imperialist
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Nov 15, 2017 09:31
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cops every last one of ya
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Nov 15, 2017 09:35
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and if you read the position paper i linked or anything i said, my point isn't that you can't or shouldn't work with democrats when it makes sense but that historically (and in recent events) they've shown themselves to be extremely hostile to leftists and the way the party is structured nationally precludes the kind of cooption or ultimate takeover you advocate, regardless of what you can accomplish locally or on the state level
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Nov 15, 2017 09:38
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we are on the verge of seismic realignments in American politics, it’s not unreasonable at all to think that one or both parties is likely to go the way of the Whigs in the next 5 years. but yeah the democrats are the graveyard of social movements so good luck to all the reformists out there
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Nov 15, 2017 09:38
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bump_fn posted:cops every last one of ya friend i just organize state employees, so what if they happen to be peace officers
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Nov 15, 2017 09:39
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Yandat posted:and if you read the position paper i linked or anything i said, my point isn't that you can't or shouldn't work with democrats when it makes sense but that historically (and in recent events) they've shown themselves to be extremely hostile to leftists and the way the party is structured nationally precludes the kind of cooption or ultimate takeover you advocate, regardless of what you can accomplish locally or on the state level man it's 4 am and i can't sleep im not reading a position paper tonight but i will read it tomorrow for sure. I was mostly going off what I saw on the front page of that site I disagree that national cooption is altogether impossible, but I do think it's impossible without local level cooption. All that said, I'm glad we can all work together under the same umbrella and I'd a million times rather have intra-DSA disagreements than splitting and i hope it stays that way
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Nov 15, 2017 10:08
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Yandat posted:it's wasted energy on an institution unique to america and uniquely resilient to popular force Can you elaborate on this?
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Nov 15, 2017 13:07
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ScrubLeague posted:I got my card today, at least a couple months after I signed up. Nice.
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Nov 15, 2017 13:14
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