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moths posted:I was irritated af when Dark Eras1 got a Beast injection that literally nobody wanted.  Especially since those didn't come back for DE2. Where's my 19th-Century Chicago Requiem, Onyx Path?
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Nov 15, 2017 03:06
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Didn't Dark Eras 1 just get the Beast era from the Beast Kickstarter?
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Nov 15, 2017 04:08
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Beast happened too late to inject it into Dark Eras 1 itself, but yeah, one of the Beast Kickstarter goals got a chapter stapled into the Dark Eras Companion that had been slated by the DE 1 Kickstarter. The writing on the actual era was mostly what I described earlier as the best case scenario for building on that foundation: inoffensive. No particular reason to want to use it because it's about Beast and you just can't ever get around that, but it managed to dodge the bullet of making poo poo much worse when discussing Reconstruction.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:26
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Eh, not in a way that I understand publishing. You block out a book to have X pages, where X is some multiple of 4 that is meaningful on the publisher's end. PDFs are probably easier to work around, but this is in regard to the actual printed edition. So whatever pagecount Beast got handed was ultimately at the expense of content the backers wanted. As in content that was voted on, asked for, and prepaid for. Then after everything was said and done, Beast got a free jam in there because isn't beast just that greatest you guys?
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Nov 15, 2017 04:34
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Changeling hit its first stretch goal. I hope we make it to the kithbook.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:34
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For Dark Eras 2 Beast is sharing Islamic Golden Age with Vampire and Necropolis of Harawa with both Werewolf and Promethean. This mostly upsets me because the page count for those could have gone to something good instead. I don't expect them to be horrifically bad but I do expect them to be wasted unusable pages since as I stated earlier the core Beast book is essentially untouchable.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:35
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Oh right the Reconstruction, I kept thinking that was Promethean and Beast was a Celtic thing I overlooked. Vampire got really shafted in the first Dark Eras. I think I was the only one who posted anything about it on the forums. It came up three times and lost each one. Vampire had three other eras, each showing up twice, each losing both times. It made me think Vampire just wasn't as popular was it used to be. But there's, I don't know, a shift towards certain games on the forum. I find it very weird how eras get picked, not just by the fans but also by the developers. I think I'm pretty out of touch with the general Chronicles community. Xinder posted:For Dark Eras 2 Beast is sharing Islamic Golden Age with Vampire and Necropolis of Harawa with both Werewolf and Promethean. That concerned me with Dark Eras 2 as well. Everything was alotted 30 pages, as far as I can tell, at first (there was 6 eras, 180 pages). I can appreciate some of the sections in DE1 were wordy, but I don't know if cutting them in half would help. Then cutting them into thirds? There might be really crowded eras. But in DE1, I think the money from the stretch goal went to pay for the extra pages for their section. Or however that's figured out. The DE1 Companion still maintains at least 28 pages per era (only one has 28, most are at 30, some are longer presumably from extra sections being added on). nofather fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 04:36
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nofather posted:Oh right the Reconstruction, I kept thinking that was Promethean and Beast was a Celtic thing I overlooked. Actually Promethean during Reconstruction would have been real good. I wish you were right.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:40
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A few years ago I would've been all over Changeling 2e but honestly some of the playtest stuff they released a while back did the exact opposite of hype me up and I might just end up waiting for the release to see if it's actually good first. I'd like to believe, but... Also because who am I kidding if I ever wanted to play Changeling I'd have to run it myself.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:38
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I'm pretty happy where things are headed- but, ultimately, I figure I need it even if I run games differently to see what people would expect coming from that side of it.
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Nov 15, 2017 06:16
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moths posted:So whatever pagecount Beast got handed was ultimately at the expense of content the backers wanted. As in content that was voted on, asked for, and prepaid for. Then after everything was said and done, Beast got a free jam in there because isn't beast just that greatest you guys? That's the thing I don't get. It already has 3 books. Like they went harder on Beast than they did most other lines. Even Changeling only gets a chapter with all the other non-Big Three in a Hunter book, but for some reason Beast needed it's own entire Hunter supplement. It needed it's own Night Horrors book. And it needed these things more than, say, giving Werewolf 2ed more books or something. Beyond anything else I wonder what made them go so hard on Beast?
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Nov 15, 2017 07:39
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Mulva posted:That's the thing I don't get. It already has 3 books. Like they went harder on Beast than they did most other lines. Even Changeling only gets a chapter with all the other non-Big Three in a Hunter book, but for some reason Beast needed it's own entire Hunter supplement. It needed it's own Night Horrors book. And it needed these things more than, say, giving Werewolf 2ed more books or something. Beyond anything else I wonder what made them go so hard on Beast? Just think about how many pages and how much time we've wasted in this thread coming up with better ideas for that piece of poo poo game than what it got. Beast's special power is being so uniquely bad and pathetic that it makes people try to fix it.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:41
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Mulva posted:That's the thing I don't get. It already has 3 books. Like they went harder on Beast than they did most other lines. Even Changeling only gets a chapter with all the other non-Big Three in a Hunter book, but for some reason Beast needed it's own entire Hunter supplement. It needed it's own Night Horrors book. And it needed these things more than, say, giving Werewolf 2ed more books or something. Beyond anything else I wonder what made them go so hard on Beast? The Dark Era and Mortal Remains were both stretch goals. "Our $93,000 supplement is something a little different. Way back when we first did Hunter, it had books covering mages, werewolves, and vampires. Last year, we published Mortal Remains, which covered the rest of the headlining monsters of the World of Darkness. Well, the rest of them up to that point.  For this stretch goal, and as requested in the comments last week, we'll create a new chapter PDF for Mortal Remains covering the relationship between Beasts and hunters. We've got some fun ideas, like a Conspiracy that co-opts Lairs, and how hunters deal with Heroes."I'd expect if Changeling hits more stretch goals they'll have more things mentioned after they've a better gauge of interest. I appreciate people don't like Beast. I don't like Beast. I've tried, hard, and frankly I don't seem to have the same problems with it others do, but I still don't like it. Still, at least 1600 people did or do like it so there's a fanbase. I want more Werewolf, but I've wanted that for years and that hasn't mattered for poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:00
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nofather posted:I want more Werewolf, but I've wanted that for years and that hasn't mattered for poo poo. Honestly, I think part of the problem with getting more Werewolf (or Vampire, or Mage) books is that they already have large 1e libraries. There's definitely a market for updating the mechanics they covered before to the new edition, but there's only so much you can write about the Pure that isn't just rehashing The Pure, y'know? Besides, like you said, Beast had a kickstarter. There were enough people willing to buy into the new CofD book sight unseen that it was going to get the funding for a few splatbooks no matter what. Werewolf isn't going to get that kind of money ahead of time the way kickstarted games do.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:17
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Topic of extra books, what are the chances of Promethean getting another one and when might that happen? I would like to see the Zeky again. (Also, to get to play Promethean at all really.)
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Nov 15, 2017 08:21
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Roland Jones posted:Topic of extra books, what are the chances of Promethean getting another one and when might that happen? I would like to see the Zeky again. (Also, to get to play Promethean at all really.) They have a Night Horrors in second draft. I'm guessing there's a Player and Storyteller Guide theoretically planned. But. Stew's gone from developing, David Hill is gone in general, and Matt McFarland seems to be gone, too (maybe? I don't know if there's been official word on this). So there might be a slowdown.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:24
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Roland Jones posted:Topic of extra books, what are the chances of Promethean getting another one and when might that happen? I would like to see the Zeky again. (Also, to get to play Promethean at all really.) The schedule only has the Contagion Chronicle and their parts of Dark Eras 2 listed. They might get more than that at some point, but Matt Mcfarland was the lead developer so I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:27
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Oh, right, I forgot about that. Thanks for the answers. Edit: Next I suppose I should ask, what is the Contagion Chronicle? Google isn't helping me much. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 08:38
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Roland Jones posted:Edit: Next I suppose I should ask, what is the Contagion Chronicle? Google isn't helping me much. Big Book of Crossover Games. The titular Contagion Chronicle is the special featured antagonist structure, like how VTR 2e is the Strix Chronicle and the mortals book is the God-Machine Chronicle. Mulva posted:That's the thing I don't get. It already has 3 books. Like they went harder on Beast than they did most other lines. Even Changeling only gets a chapter with all the other non-Big Three in a Hunter book, but for some reason Beast needed it's own entire Hunter supplement. It needed it's own Night Horrors book. And it needed these things more than, say, giving Werewolf 2ed more books or something. Beyond anything else I wonder what made them go so hard on Beast? Beast seems like it has a thicker lineup than the (non-Vampire) second edition relaunches, but I'd expect that's partially because the relaunches have back catalogs and preexisting fans to lean on, and a new line doesn't. Start a new IP, push to establish brand recognition. It got a comparable lineup to Mummy and Demon, the other two kickstarted new lines: about two or three supplement books, plus whatever Kickstarter goals they hit. The Hunter supplement for Beast was one of those stretch goals, and it's only somewhat longer than a given chapter in Mortal Remains with the same format, accounting for extra Dread Powers. They probably released it as a small book of its own because Mortal Remains had already been selling by then, and it would be too much work to redesign the book and then have two hardcopy versions out there with different numbers of chapters. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 09:15
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I Am Just a Box posted:Beast seems like it has a thicker lineup than the (non-Vampire) second edition relaunches, but I'd expect that's partially because the relaunches have back catalogs and preexisting fans to lean on, and a new line doesn't. Start a new IP, push to establish brand recognition. It got a comparable lineup to Mummy and Demon, the other two kickstarted new lines: about two or three supplement books, plus whatever Kickstarter goals they hit. And then it turned out to be more reviled than anything they'd ever put out and the line developer was discovered to have done something terrible in the past. I'd laugh if I didn't actually like Onyx Path and almost every other thing they've produced, instead I'm just sad and frustrated that this boil of a gameline is going to keep getting attention and time dedicated to it that could be put elsewhere and that whenever I try to introduce friends to ChroD I can no longer lead with how it handles and incorporates mature subjects well--now I have to insert an EXCEPT. It's just fortunate everyone is used to tabletop games containing lovely and skeevy elements.
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Nov 15, 2017 10:59
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Night10194 posted:But is the setting really lacking for 'I prey on people and lie to myself about it' characters without them? Before Beast was announced, nobody was clamouring for a game where you kind of play a dragon/kraken/giant/whatever but not really and also there's weird dream stuff and you spend your time abusing people. It's just not a concept that needed to be filled out at all. The drive to turn absolutely any monster type people can think of into a Chronicles game seriously needs revising, particularly since it's got to the point where you have redundant takes on the same concept. (Take Deviant, a game where you play the product of a Frankenstein-esque hideous experiment, and Promethean, a game where you also play the product of a Frankenstein-esque tampering in God's domain. Had Promethean really nailed its central "This is our take on Franknenstein and similar myths" brief, Deviant would be wholly redundant.) It kind of feels like most of the Chronicles games outside of the Big Three have the problem of being based on such a personal vision it ends up tossing out most of the stuff people would want to do with that particular niche in favour of one specific thing. Changeling dispenses with most of what people would want to do with the whole dark faeryland thing in favour of the "fugitive abuse survivor" concept. Geist is whatever the gently caress Geist is, and I won't deny that it's an original concept but I will deny that it's a concept anyone was specifically crying out for in the "you play spoops" game. Promethean feels more like a philosophical exercise than a game you actually play a campaign of. Mummy is just sort of there. Demon I have a lot of affection for, but it works much better if you don't think of it as playing actual demons (which it has absolutely the wrong aesthetic for) and instead think of it as Matrix: the Agenting. One wonders whether their sales woes and depleted cultural cachet aren't at least partially due to the fact that they've kind of disappeared up their own rear end and taken to delivering games with concepts better suited to niche indie releases rather than something for a broad audience. LatwPIAT posted:Long before the Beast draft was released, it never really seemed like a very good idea for a game. It doesn't have the strong connections to easily identifiable mythical creatures and doesn't draw on a body of existing pop culture works, and the one-line pitch is that you're playing monsters - which is already what the World of Darkness as a whole is about. Paring Beast down to its bare bones leaves you with a less thematically coherent or interesting Vampire.
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Nov 15, 2017 12:08
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It's funny, in a meta-textual way: Beast is now a metaphysical load that contributes nothing, takes up air and energy, harms outlooks and has nonetheless had a lot of effort spent on it, and which will no doubt continue to receive that effort, to the exclusion of actual positive things. Just like Beasts themselves! Warthur posted:One wonders whether their sales woes and depleted cultural cachet aren't at least partially due to the fact that they've kind of disappeared up their own rear end and taken to delivering games with concepts better suited to niche indie releases rather than something for a broad audience. I do agree that a lot of the nWoD games, while extremely creative and cool, do come off weirdly. Like if you told me you were playing a Demon game, I would be thinking something like In Nomine - but actual Demon is not a lot like that. Changeling seems to be entirely about surviving and dealing with the trauma of abuse - indeed, just hearing people talk about it, it seems like the "fantasy" of the setting is almost completely absorbed by that overwhelming axis on which the entire thing turns. Nessus fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 12:12
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Warthur posted:TBH, I kind of feel the same way about the various variants of Changeling. Your basic fairyland idea is that there is a hidden place, in the shadows of the ordinary world, where fantastic and perilous creatures lurk and play their own strange, occult political games. That's a cool concept! It also describes every other major WoD game. The fairies somehow feel redundant in WoD to me in a way which vampires, wizards, woofles and spoops don't. Changeling is literally an abuse metaphor writ large and in supernatural terms and with a far lighter metaplot than what WoD usually offers. When you get past the window dressing that makes up the setting there's a pretty empowering message there. Also, it handles the whole abuse issue right unlike Beast. Also, also, it does it from the role of the victim instead of the abuser. Picture this: Someone is kidnapped or forcibly taken into the custody of someone horrible, locked away from the world, forced to endure a situation so terrible that it threatens to fracture the state of their mind, only to ultimately break free through an effort of literally heroic will, cunning, or just flat out luck and return to society. From there they have to work on getting their life back on track. That's literally the plot of almost every Changeling character. Sure, you went through some godawful poo poo. And sure, it changed you. But everything from then on is you basically flicking off your abuser (who is a self-obsessed lovecraftian human that abandoned it's humanity in favor of empty solipsistic enjoyments --- again, this is not a game line that deals in subtlety when it comes to it's backstory) and reconnecting with the humanity it tried to force you to lose. And while you lost something precious you also gained something that gives you actual agency to fight back in what can feel like a really messed up world. It's also punk as gently caress in that old school Masquerade way. Only it takes the concept and blows it up to even bigger proportions. Your entire existence as a free being is basically one gigantic gently caress you to monolithic and possibly ancient entities that want to use you as a pawn in their incomprehensible games. Except instead of stalking the alleys of your home town and preying on innocent people in a slow (and likely futile fight) to keep what someone tried to make you lose you take the fight to them and their minions on a magical flying pirate ship or whatever other batshit insane things a Changeling group can glamour into working properly for them. Edit: As a side note, the courts are even metaphors for the various stages of grief. Spring is denial, summer is anger, etc, etc. There's a lot of small and really well thought out stuff in Changeling 1e that makes it all "click". I'm not even sure how to get into all of it without typing up a dissertation. Also, a lot of people can understand the idea of getting away from abusers and trying to just live their lives. I know at least one person who went through some awful poo poo and ended up interested in the game as a result of being able to read into it as a metaphor for escaping and fighting back against an abuser. From that perspective it's a lot less esoteric and easier to pick up and get into than Werewolf message of "steroidal furries rip through the spirit realm like a lightning bolt in a doomed effort to protect the human world" or Vampire's far darker message of "Okay, yeah. Some bad poo poo happened to you. Prepare for an eternity of losing this fight against yourself and your situation by degrees.". By contrast Beast is just utterly sickening tripe that basically tries to apologize for the abuser's actions. They had might as well of just had that writer write up a full blown True Fae expansion for Changeling and give the following Changeling has some really hosed up antagonists to hate. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 14:24
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Nessus posted:Changeling seems to be entirely about surviving and dealing with the trauma of abuse - indeed, just hearing people talk about it, it seems like the "fantasy" of the setting is almost completely absorbed by that overwhelming axis on which the entire thing turns. Honestly, I think this is one of those cases where it suffers from hearing people talk about it, because they play up aspects of the game that in practice are not nearly as prominent. (See also how Exalted is all about dudes who shitkick concepts into the ground and throw the moon at people.) I found Changeling's ability to do the "dark faeryland" thing pretty good in the first edition (if a little aimless in designing encounters and planning for conflict). Previews of the previous model of Changeling 2e under David Hill looked like they were going to bring that survivor metaphor more explicit, but what I've seen from a glance at Rose Bailey's 2e seems to walk that back (though I've not taken the time for a full read yet), which if true is for the better. I prefer the mapping of the seasonal courts to the stages of grief as subtext rather than text, but I still have to read those sections through in detail.
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Nov 15, 2017 14:39
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I am not a huge fan of the seasonals, but I will give 2e this: it has reworked them in such a way as to make explicit why the seasonals exist. Which is to say, some weigh was given to the Seasonal Bargains, and it was noted that other courts can also have Bargains. The Seasonal Bargains, maintained by the peaceful transition of power between the four courts and the various rituals of each season, mean: 1. When Spring rules, the Keepers and their minions cannot do violence, except in pursuit of something they truly covet. Really covet. More than 'I covet cash because I am greedy.' It has to be real, honest, true desire. 2. When Summer rules, the Keepers and their minions cannot retreat. They must fight to the last, no matter what. 3. When Autumn rules, the Keepers and their minions must give warning of their intentions to do harm. The more powerful they are, the further the warning must come, ranging from a few hours to a full month. An invitation to a slaughter, huge fiery glyphs on the edge of the Hedge, whatever - it just can't be a surprise. 4. When Winter rules, the Keepers and their minions must mourn - really and truly mourn - those they kill. They cannot strike a second victim down until they have performed some ritual to honor the first.
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Nov 15, 2017 14:58
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The sample text of the Spring Courtier going "I'm sorry, do I know you?" to a Huntsman and that cutting like a knife is tremendous. I feel like the Seeming Blessings and Kiths are a bit... All over the place in terms of utility and interest value, but I'll hold my nose on that for now. There are small details thus far that I'm really loving, like Bridge Burners now apparently wanting to wipe out all the beauty in the world in the hopes of keeping away the pain as well (i.e. the Gentry), which is such a lovely exemplification of Changeling's "wonder and terror" theme that I anticipate them being major villains in any Changeling games I run. Or how they call out the Wyrd as being the power in exchanges and bargains; that giving something up always gives you something, as much as getting something always has a price. Knowing that the Wyrd always rewards a loss as much as takes from a gain is a nice evening of the path, y'know? My biggest reservation is waiting to see how they do the Hedge. Even just a paragraph or two outlining how to reward players for deliberately traipsing into obvious danger - a Condition with a name like Hanseling, for example - would drastically reshape my opinion of it. If Changelings are actively rewarded for doing stupid fairytale poo poo, like actively walking into the dark woods or eating the sweet food laid out in the mysteriously empty house or following that strange but beautiful music, it helps mechanize the sensation of being allured by the mysterious beauty instead of being automatically afraid of it every time.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:06
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New stretch goal: 88k, expansion of Freeholds and rules for Freeholds in the Changeling Companion.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:09
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Archonex posted:Changeling is literally an abuse metaphor writ large and in supernatural terms and with a far lighter metaplot than what WoD usually offers. When you get past the window dressing that makes up the setting there's a pretty empowering message there. Also, it handles the whole abuse issue right unlike Beast. Also, also, it does it from the role of the victim instead of the abuser. Also in my post I admittedly was mostly thinking about Changeling: the Dreaming, where you pretty much are playing the faeries but because you already had magical shapeshifters who cavort with spirits in a hazy otherworld in the form of oWoD woofles they kind of ended up being conceptually redundant.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:37
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Warthur posted:(Take Deviant, a game where you play the product of a Frankenstein-esque hideous experiment, and Promethean, a game where you also play the product of a Frankenstein-esque tampering in God's domain. Had Promethean really nailed its central "This is our take on Franknenstein and similar myths" brief, Deviant would be wholly redundant.) Whilst I agreed with some of your points, this is the one that made me feel like I needed to post something. As someone who is unbelievably hype for Deviant, and a huge Promethean fan, I would argue that there is 100% room for both gamelines, because the two aren't actually trying to cover the same space. Promethean is a story about becoming something better than you are, about finding an end to torment and despair and through great reflection and self-improvement becoming a being capable of being happy and fulfilled. You're a monster, and not one of your own design, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel and one day, if you work hard and do your best and do the right things, you will reach it and get to enjoy the sunshine. Deviant on the other hand (and I will admit that this is not based on an incredibly thorough reading of all the material available, but from my impressions of what I have read) is about being a monster, yes, but harnessing that to protect those who are unable to fight the monsters that prey on them, whilst having to look after yourself. Your end goal isn't to end up becoming a normal person (as far as I am aware), it's to either A) blow up horribly and take nasty things with you or B) take down those who wish to take you and maybe go out as yourself. The two gamelines take inspiration from very, very different sources and are supposed to be used to tell very different kind of stories, and I think conflating the two does both lines a disservice.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:51
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I Am Just a Box posted:Honestly, I think this is one of those cases where it suffers from hearing people talk about it, because they play up aspects of the game that in practice are not nearly as prominent. (See also how Exalted is all about dudes who shitkick concepts into the ground and throw the moon at people.) I found Changeling's ability to do the "dark faeryland" thing pretty good in the first edition (if a little aimless in designing encounters and planning for conflict). Previews of the previous model of Changeling 2e under David Hill looked like they were going to bring that survivor metaphor more explicit, but what I've seen from a glance at Rose Bailey's 2e seems to walk that back (though I've not taken the time for a full read yet), which if true is for the better. I largely agree; the abuse metaphor is there, but you can also ignore it completely, which makes for a game that has both flexibility and depth. One thing I didn't like about the early previews for 2e was that they seemed to play up the abuse angle to the detriment of the setting as a whole, and they seemed to have a very strong focus on playing someone who escaped their abuser through their own actions, which I felt weakened the metaphor by not allowing the very common abuse narrative of "it just ended and I'm left to pick up the pieces of myself". That, and the fact the first piece of promotional material released pushed rather heavily the idea of offloading development-work on the ST. (The pervasiveness of the abuse metaphor in Changeling has also made people go looking for "the metaphor" in games that aren't really written around such a direct analogy. Like Werewolf.)
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Nov 15, 2017 16:21
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Hattie Masters posted:Whilst I agreed with some of your points, this is the one that made me feel like I needed to post something. As someone who is unbelievably hype for Deviant, and a huge Promethean fan, I would argue that there is 100% room for both gamelines, because the two aren't actually trying to cover the same space. Deviant is about isolation versus human connection, with mutation as a metaphor for isolation, and about how Catharsis is a lie and stewing in anger breaks you. If Changeling is Jessica Jones, Deviant is Daredevil and Punisher
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Nov 15, 2017 16:33
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Deviant is about isolation versus human connection, with mutation as a metaphor for isolation, and about how Catharsis is a lie and stewing in anger breaks you. Thank you. I knew as I was typing it that I wasn't getting my point across particularly well.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:41
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Warthur posted:I can see how all that's cool but the thing which bugs me about Changeling: the Lost is that it's the faerie game but you don't get to play a faerie - you get to play someone who has every possible motivation to run as far away from all that stuff as they possibly can. Actually, there's rules for playing as a True Fae. It's just they're closer to the old school sort of faeries. They're not sociable people. Or even really safe to be around at all. In fact, from what I recall of the rules they're completely different from the other game lines in that the True Fae play more like an overarching competitive strategy game rather than a tabletop RPG. There's very little character interaction outside of ordering around broken slaves or trying to crush the other players through story telling. Because they aren't even able to connect to human concepts like empathy without getting vastly depowered. Which while neat would ultimately probably be pretty boring for anyone that wanted to do more than crunch numbers. Also there's plenty of reasons for characters to interact with the Fae side of things. It's just that it's a bad idea. Not that that stops it from having tons of great incentives to take players there. See: Getting ever crazier powers, obtaining crazy items like goblin fruits and artifacts, saving a family member or other valued character from getting dragged off to Arcadia, wanting to actually kill the gently caress out of the Keepers in your area, wanting to find a way to sell out everyone else to keep the Keepers away, wanting to avoid the inevitable consequences for trying to sell out your fellow Changelings, etc, etc. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 16:53
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Warthur posted:I can see how all that's cool but the thing which bugs me about Changeling: the Lost is that it's the faerie game but you don't get to play a faerie - you get to play someone who has every possible motivation to run as far away from all that stuff as they possibly can. I mean, it's not falsely advertised. It's called Changeling, not Faerie, and it delivers people being stolen and coming back wrong. When Changeling is executed well, the changelings are living in kind of a liminal community with one foot in and one foot out: they have affinity for human relationships, but quite frankly, fae magic is useful, once you've had goblin fruit you can't really go back, and you can make a good deal with the hobs if you're clever. Everything in the Hedge isn't working for the Gentry, and it's plenty wonderland to explore. I'll agree with Axelgear wholeheartedly that it would do well to emphasize good reasons to go visit the Hedge to balance it out with the risks involved. There are some there already but they would do well to stand out and present more opportunities for proactivity.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:07
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Deviant is about isolation versus human connection, with mutation as a metaphor for isolation, and about how Catharsis is a lie and stewing in anger breaks you. I feel like this just reinforces his point even further.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:08
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1e definitely seemed to assume that you'd spend enough time in the Hedge that it was totally okay and worthwhile that a whole lot of stuff had no utility outside it. Like Fae Mount, the worst goddamn merit in 1e Changeling.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:10
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I mean it's fine to have redundant gamelines and lots of slight variations on a theme, honestly making sure that each line has enough material to stand on its own and then moving on is probably better than the "endless supplements to a single core" that most RPG systems use. But at the same time you could replace the word "Deviant" in that post with "Promethean" and all the appropriate proper nouns and it would still make perfect sense.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:12
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One of the things that tipped me into playing Changeling in the first place was when someone pointed out you could be anything. You can be a werewolf or vampire facsimile. I think that's a big draw of Beast, too, and presumably will be of Deviant. You aren't as confined to a single monster anymore, you're part of a larger concept. That said, another thing is the ideas behind it. Changeling is an abuse metaphor, but you can't go far into the Changeling forums without finding people who take that out. It's easy to do so. Good Keepers, Changelings who didn't really suffer, inept Keepers that were easily overcome. The abuse instead becomes a scar, a story you can tell that shows how badass you are and makes you look cool. And Beast does that, too. You can be a werewolf without Werewolf, a vampire without Vampire, or any of the drawbacks those gamelines have (in-world or out). You have a backstory with the Dark Mother that tells you you're 'more' than those other monsters, while simultaneously related. And you can do things the way you want. You can tear people to shreds, but you can just 'be a dick,' and not have to hurt anyone. You're the horror but you can be a minor horror. I think that last part is another part of the draw. I don't know if it's pushback over being told what to do or having a narrower focus, or people just don't like killing things, but even the Hunter playtest had a lot of people vocal when people thought hunters 'had' to kill monsters.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:24
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Yeah, that was something I disliked about the previews—that they basically made the subtext unavoidable text—and was happy to see walked back a bit.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:26
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I Am Just a Box posted:I mean, it's not falsely advertised. It's called Changeling, not Faerie, and it delivers people being stolen and coming back wrong. On the other hand, I guess there's Dreaming for the former, and people's talk here about how the abuse metaphor isn't pushed as much as I'd heard elsewhere it was has got me curious again, so maybe I'll dip my toe in that water.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:29
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