|
Chadzok posted:Everyone I know in actually reality that is buying bitcoins is doing it with the express intention of making money, ‘not wanting to miss out’ as the price rises. I have never, ever had a discussion about anyone using it for any other reason (except drugs). All the bitcoin stories in pop media are about price, none of them about what you are meant to do with them besides make money. The latest chalk mark on my as-yet-unresponded-to comment (I understand Ham, there’s a lot for you to do here. You’re doing god’s work) is this gem from the frontpage of Australia’s premier news site, Sydney Morning Herald. http://www.smh.com.au/small-busines...116-gzn9jb.html This is what the media and the common man thinks is the only important point about bitcoin worth discussing - “on-this-trajectory-it-wont-be-long-before-one-bitcoin-is-worth-1-million-a-pop.”
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 06:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
Blade Runner posted:You haven't actually defended your point, you've literally said "well that's just, like, your opinion, man. People love Buttcoin in Venezuela." Also, this is actually completely made-up bullshit. It's a lie Bitcoiners keep repeating. I wrote it up for the book: quote:But Bitcoin saved Venezuela! Also, here's a long time bitcoiner on the price: https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/931334856642097152 Also, the main purpose of smart contracts is to lose millions of dollars in the click of a button. Also, I've still so far (there's at least a couple more months in this) made £4200 more, in actual real world ActualMoney in my bank account, from Bitcoin than Hammy ever has.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 11:33
|
|
|
Drone_Fragger posted:I literally think Ham Sandwiches might be mentally ill:
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 11:47
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:-- Costs about $30 in real money per transaction, subsidized largely by the network printing new coins for every block so that you only have to pay ~$8 instead I've never heard this one before. Is this a calculation of all the estimated electricity costs that went into the entire process from start to finish?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 16:17
|
|
|
Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:It STORES value you idiot Calm down, duder. If you can't explain it to me, how are you going to explain it to the average person? I don't disagree that it's a store of value. What I'm having trouble understanding is how it's better than, say, the US dollar (or the loonies in my pocket right now) as a medium of exchange.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
mojo1701a posted:Calm down, duder. If you can't explain it to me, how are you going to explain it to the average person?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 16:30
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:I've never heard this one before. Is this a calculation of all the estimated electricity costs that went into the entire process from start to finish? I believe it is based on the average total hash rate for a transaction period (a known quantity), how much electricity it costs to produce that many hashes (an estimate, and I would guess that they use a low estimate for this, but it varies depending on the process, for instance a Javascript Bitcoin miner is less efficient than an ASIC), and an estimate for how much that electricity costs (I almost always see 10c per kwh, my own residential rate is 14c though). https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 16:57
|
|
|
mojo1701a posted:Calm down, duder. If you can't explain it to me, how are you going to explain it to the average person? I will NOT calm down, you’ve awakened the bitcoin beast!!!
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:I've never heard this one before. Is this a calculation of all the estimated electricity costs that went into the entire process from start to finish? it's pretty simple and retrospectively obvious. electricity/hardware/building/etc costs will always approximate what the miner can sell the resulting BTC for - because the whole history of economics shows people spending up to $99.99 to make $100, and if they spend $101 to make $100 too much they go broke. the miner is paid in block reward and and transaction fees. this money is not imaginary dollars, it's real dollars (or yuan), paid for the electricity/etc and coming from people buying the BTC. the entire thing has a net negative expected return across all participants. this is one of the key objections in jstolfi's famed SEC response, btw, as to why a Bitcoin ETF is a poo poo idea. now if bitcoin actually had an economy, you could say "well economic value is generated at these flows of coins for services etc" and that'd be one thing. but bitcoin doesn't have an economy, except a few drug dealers. so all that's left is a complicated scheme to funnel money from suckers to new miners and old hodlers, with scammers taking a cut along the way. it is hypothetically possible that some time in the astounding future!! there will be something that could be called a cryptocurrency economy. there has been no sign of it in the past eight years, and many reasons to think it's not a happener. but sure, it's not philosophically impossible,, divabot fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Nov 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
Manic Technophile posted:It's not better than the dollar. If it were it would have a bigger market cap than USD. Bitcoin is tiny by comparison. I think people give it a pass there because it's new and could improve or plug into other software, extending its use. Yeah, I can see that. I'm actually interested to see where it goes, just out of curiosity. I just always found the overlap with libertarian beliefs hilarious. Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:I will NOT calm down, you’ve awakened the bitcoin beast!!! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! How many Chinese miners must I sacrifice to appease it?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:24
|
|
|
divabot posted:electricity/hardware/building/etc costs will always approximate what the miner can sell the resulting BTC for - because the whole history of economics shows people spending up to $99.99 to make $100, and if they spend $101 to make $100 too much they go broke. mmm, I don't like that explanation nearly as much as mine, because there exist reasons to mine at a loss (money laundering, stealing electricity) edit: it also suggests that Visa's fees are as high as they are because they need to be to remain solvent, and not because of the profit they make CassandraZara fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Nov 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:34
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:Oh dude, you don't like being called out on your garbage behavior to strangers on the internet who disagree with you? Do you not understand why people are concerned with your mental health? You keep mentioning random events and scenarios, like iPhones being larger, YOSPOS, and sysadmins. When you mention these and attribute these to people who call you mentally unwell WHO HAVE NEVER SAID OR MENTIONED THEM (please point out where I say I'm a sysadmin or show me a post I've made on YOSPOS, I only mentioned the phones after YOU brought them up). This makes you look mentally unwell, it's not garbage behaviour to point this out to people, how would you be able to fix your health if no one pointed it out? Please get therapy, not everyone is a large phone hating sysadmin from YOSPOS.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:46
|
|
|
CassandraZara posted:mmm, I don't like that explanation nearly as much as mine, because there exist reasons to mine at a loss (money laundering, stealing electricity) I don't get this idea that credit card fees are high. I use Square for my store, and I pay 2.75% per transaction. Considering about half my income is via card payments, it's well worth the fee to be able to accept Visa, Master Card, AmEx, & Discover credit and debit cards. (And I know the fee won't change from day to day because of network clogging.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:50
|
|
|
CassandraZara posted:mmm, I don't like that explanation nearly as much as mine, because there exist reasons to mine at a loss (money laundering, stealing electricity) The competitive pressure on Visa re: fees is not other card companies (it's a pretty cosy oligopoly) but other ways to pay. With Bitcoin mining, it's a market in resource wastage, because that's what PoW is designed to be.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
divabot posted:everyone who's exposed on bitcoin is exposed to tether. the notional "price" of bitcoin is strongly affected by the price on bitfinex, even when the "price" you're using doesn't include bitfinex in its weighted average.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:indeed; you were the one trying to extend of bitcoin being a ponzi scheme to commodities, but clearly commodities aren't like bitcoin at all
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
divabot posted:it's pretty simple and retrospectively obvious. You're a good poster and I like the way you post.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:29
|
|
|
did you guys mention that using bitcoin to pay for something reveals your entire balance of bitcoins to the seller? you'd have to tumble your bitcoins and maintain multiple wallets to obfuscate your balance if any crypto is ever used for daily transactions, i doubt it will be bitcoin
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:29
|
|
|
A useful way to identify ~bourgie~
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
klafbang posted:Hey Bitcoin thread. Here's a story. if we end up in an extended downtrend i'm probably going to move capital to trade stocks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
jonathan posted:You're a good poster and I like the way you post. :preen: after all I literally wrote a book about this poo poo intended for normal humans to be able to understand. it's still too technical (both in computers and economics), but hopefully the funny scammer stories got the point across
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:00
|
|
|
Here's my dumb bitcoin story which is more just a rambling humble brag while I procrastinate clearing the driveway of snow. So I'm a manchild of unfinished projects. I've sold 2 unfinished racecars at large losses. Currently have an unfinished renovation in my main house, and fancy myself a property investor because I have multiple houses, yet have no tenant in the second house which I pay a second mortgage on. I have heavy equipment disassembled in storage not making money. I recently decided I wanted to play video games (VR Racing sims actually, to keep my reflexes and muscle memory sharp for my unfinished offroad endurance racing hobby that I haven't followed through with). I've followed bitcoin drama since I first heard of it some 5 or 6 years ago. Since I have an unused gaming rig collecting dust, I decided to start mining with nicehash. Why ? Well for starters, I'd like to learn a new hobby. Secondly I'd like to start consolidating unattended hobbies into a few attended hobbies. And C, I've been looking at the bigger picture of mining rigs and their wasted heat output. I spend a lot of money on heat. It's currently -17 and I probably pay around $500 per month in the winter on energy costs not including fuel. Ok so this wasted heat. Can I think of this dumb gaming machine as essentially a 300 watt electric heater that also has an ability to break even on profits at a minimum short term, and also have a slim chance of speculative gains in the future ? Seems like I might be able to. Possible heat uses: -Keep my detached workshop warm. Workshop is around 600 square feet and insulated. I don't need to keep it warm, just above freezing so my chemicals and batteries don't slush up. Should break even on this as I currently use a small space heater. -Keep pickup warm inside. When I get called to the work yard in the winter it takes drat near the entire commute before the cab inside my pickup is warm. I run an extension cord to the block heater already. I could easily tie it into the rig and just have it run in the pickup. -Keep Work truck warm. Now this gets a little bit more profitable. I don't pay for fuel. The truck runs 16 hours a day. It also stays plugged in when not being used. And as a bonus, I have a 2000 watt professional grade inverter wired into the battery bank. A 300 watt draw on a 450 kilowatt turbo diesel is gently caress all. I go through 70 gallons of fuel a day. I am not sure on bandwidth required though. My cell plan has 6gb per month of data and the mining rig wouldn't have internet access while im away from the work yard. From my lovely truck driver understanding of economics, the major coins like bitcoin, ethereum and even monero are next to impossible to break even at a hobbyist level. Nicehash mines altcoins and works for the most profitable ones. It then pays out in bitcoin which isn't exactly stable but atleast I can turn it into real money without too much trouble. Since this is nothing more than a dumb hobby, I feel like high risk is a more interesting way to waste time and money. So what I plan on doing is trading bitcoin for low value coins that seem to have some reason behind them. Currently the only one I've been able to find is SIAcoin, which has a real service behind it. Distributed low latency storage hosting. Do I believe in the product ? gently caress no, but it's the least worst speculative option in my opinion. At the moment I'm mining for nicehash at about 30%, and mining directly for SIAcoin with the remaining 70%. At current market, I'm offsetting my power bill by about $70 per month. However since I plan on dumping everything into high risk "penny stock" equivalents, I'm probably making 0 dollars, but creating heat with a $1500 space heater.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
divabot posted::preen: Do you have a link to the book ? Maybe I can use this mining rig to download the book. An actual useful venture.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:18
|
|
|
divabot posted:The competitive pressure on Visa re: fees is not other card companies (it's a pretty cosy oligopoly) but other ways to pay. With Bitcoin mining, it's a market in resource wastage, because that's what PoW is designed to be. I don't know why you think that makes your original explanation correct.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Chadzok posted:The latest chalk mark on my as-yet-unresponded-to comment (I understand Ham, there’s a lot for you to do here. You’re doing god’s work) is this gem from the frontpage of Australia’s premier news site, Sydney Morning Herald. Ah yes, Ham Sandwiches has to respond to all dumb media reporting worldwide, as a guy that posts in the cryptocurrency thread in GBS??  I agree it's a silly article, I personally wouldn't expect that it will be worth 1 million a coin. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Nov 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:46
|
|
|
divabot posted:now if bitcoin actually had an economy, you could say "well economic value is generated at these flows of coins for services etc" and that'd be one thing. but bitcoin doesn't have an economy, except a few drug dealers. so all that's left is a complicated scheme to funnel money from suckers to new miners and old hodlers, with scammers taking a cut along the way. I like the drug dealers claim as more and more financial institutions consider / are in the process of messing with cryptocurrencies. However, let's focus on the main part here: divabot casually slides in "I may be totally wrong and in the future cryptocurrencies may become legitimate, but they haven't yet!!" Which is a total repudiation of the premise for the book he wrote. That's a very interesting U turn here divabot. So you're saying that if in the astounding future, there's an established cryptocurrency economy (by the way, people took massive offense to me implying that there's such a thing in the previous thread), then the r/buttcoiners and rationalwiki crew weren't wrong to ridicule cryptocurrencies for years? How does that work?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:I like the drug dealers claim as more and more financial institutions consider / are in the process of messing with cryptocurrencies. However, let's focus on the main part here: divabot casually slides in "I may be totally wrong and in the future cryptocurrencies may become legitimate, but they haven't yet!!"
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 20:01
|
|
|
divabot posted:Also, this is actually completely made-up bullshit. It's a lie Bitcoiners keep repeating. I wrote it up for the book: This is a pretty fascinating slice of your book. So you basically do 0 research on Venezuela other than look up the transactions on one exchange, take a sample from late 2016 (when the reason article was written) and decide that's representative for whatever was happening now, and declare it a non issue  There have been quite a few fairly recent articles written about Venezuela and bitcoins in a variety of publications, so that seems to undercut your claim that "These claims always fall apart on closer examination. Venezuela is a typical example: all the coverage traces back to a story in Libertarian magazine Reason, fiercely advocating Bitcoin as a way to avert the spectres of socialism and regulation" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/big-in-venezuela/534177/#article-comments https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/venezuela-is-one-of-the-worlds-most-dangerous-places-to-mine-bitcoin.html "Thousands of Venezuelans have turned to secretly mining the digital currency" I guess with that method, there's nothing to see here, it's been disproven  Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and even India during the devaluation, are examples of unstable political and economic situations where people have found uses for cryptocurrencies. Trying to handwave it away on scale or because reason.com reported seems like a very, very insufficient analysis.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 20:03
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:This is a pretty fascinating slice of your book. So you basically do 0 research on Venezuela other than look up the transactions on one exchange, take a sample from late 2016 (when the reason article was written) and decide that's representative for whatever was happening now, and declare it a non issue  you can see the dates in your article urls. his book was published july 24th 2017. do you even know how books work?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
jonathan posted:Do you have a link to the book ? Maybe I can use this mining rig to download the book. An actual useful venture. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/book/ gary oldmans diary posted:actually you havent read his book These stories are also BS. The "thousands" claim in the CNBC story is based on speaking to two local electricity thieves who said so, and a guy in Spain. Ham Sandwiches is as bad at reading text elsewhere as text here. CassandraZara posted:I don't know why you think that makes your original explanation correct. because it is. What's wrong with it? by the 1st December I expect to be about £6000 ahead of actual cash money profits from bitcoin compared to Ham Sandwiches.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 20:23
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:Let me know when millions of people start using your cum for transactions on exchanges worldwide can you let me know too? it's for a project i'm doing
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Of interest to this thread: https://lendedu.com/blog/investing-in-bitcoin One particular lol: 7. At what price per Bitcoin would you be willing to sell all of your Bitcoin investment? On average, respondents reported that they would be willing to sell all of their Bitcoin investment at $196,165.79 per Bitcoin. At the time of the survey completion, the price per Bitcoin was $6,490.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
Stefan Prodan posted:Of interest to this thread: The people behind that site look skeevy as gently caress at first glance
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
Haha yeah well everything connected to finance is a scam in one way or the other so it fits
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 23:29
|
|
|
divabot posted:because it is. What's wrong with it? Because people have reasons to mine at a loss! God I hope your book is full of this "because I said so" reasoning.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 00:22
|
|
|
taking off my expensive fur coat i explain to a woman at the bar "i invested heavily into bitcoin- and early" then you could buy me a drink, she says, surely? i stutter for minutes, explaining i know a guy who accepts bit bucks at a bar, but it's about three hours from here and the law only allows alcohol to be served for another seventy minutes
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
Uranium 235 posted:bitcoin is a commodity Most people buying apples aren't speculating on apple prices and hoping to turn a quick profit, they're just buying apples. But most people buying bitcoin are just speculating on bitcoin prices. That's the most widely advertised and most common use case for bitcoins: selling them to the next person as a way of becoming rich quick So maybe saying that bitcoin definitely isn't a ponzi scheme because it's just a commodity doesn't make as much sense as you'd think. And indeed, many ponzi schemes actually do involve some sort of commodity being "sold" in order to draw in new investors, so the whole idea is just pure bunk
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 01:10
|
|
|
CassandraZara posted:Because people have reasons to mine at a loss! God I hope your book is full of this "because I said so" reasoning. It's a reasonable approximation. Mining at a loss just means that the real cost per transaction is higher, and therefore funnier, so it's all good
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 01:14
|
|
|
CassandraZara posted:Because people have reasons to mine at a loss! ... yeah, and that's going to be the minority case (e.g. pumping Bitcoin Cash), unless they get overconfident in a way that they're gonna go broke. I described how mining is designed, you made an incorrect comparison to Visa. What was your substantive point? CassandraZara posted:God I hope your book is full of this "because I said so" reasoning. Lotta citations, if you want to engage actual points, or make one some time maybe.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
Look, bitcoiners rely on such things as "heard it on the internet", "another bitcoin user told me this as gospel" and "well obviously this is the case", rather than such pointless and blatantly untruely source material such as "sourced evidence" "cited other works by experts" and of course, the most heinous of all fake news, "reading the dates on timestamps".
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2017 03:01
|
|
