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Zas posted:The reactions to th Franken thing are especially telling because the worry of many of the people defending him is that this poo poo is super common among powerful men. FYP. There are no good men.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:19
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Condiv posted:are people really trying to defend franken for that poo poo? why would you do that, even if you're a spineless centrist? For the same reason we defended Bill Clinton: the aggregate harm done by Democratic politicians stepping down and potentially being replaced by Republicans is more than the harm done to the individual women. It’s a dumb horseshit argument because it can be used to dismiss any wrongdoing by any Democratic politician for any reason.
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Nov 19, 2017 01:37
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C. Everett Koop posted:FYP. There are no good men. yeah but its the powerful dems in DC who are the ones that self described radical feminists will go to bat for. as has been brought up a lot lately, see: gloria steinem and bill clinton in the 90s
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Nov 19, 2017 06:05
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Did Joe Biden announce he was running in 2020? I'm asking because the social media bots have started running anti Biden stuff.
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Nov 19, 2017 08:53
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Zas posted:yeah but its the powerful dems in DC who are the ones that self described radical feminists will go to bat for. as has been brought up a lot lately, see: gloria steinem and bill clinton in the 90s It seems like feminism got absolutely chewed up and spat out by capitalism. Or maybe just white feminism.
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Nov 19, 2017 09:09
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About Franken. I love Franken, but I feel that if we don't crucify him then Roy Moores greatest crime will be that he belonged to the wrong party. I can't really accept the whole "we have to look the other way or the republican that replaces these people will do worse things" Because it's the same logic that people in Alabama use. "He's a pedophile but at least he's not a Democrat (the literal anti-christs who will bring about an end to the world) During the '12 election Chuck Norris said that if Obama was elected it would usher in a thousand years of darkness. Like Obama was bringing the actual apocalypse.
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Nov 19, 2017 09:39
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Katt posted:Did Joe Biden announce he was running in 2020? I very heavily doubt that he's going to run. He's come out and said that he won't, and he's too old to run anyway.
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Nov 19, 2017 09:47
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Katt posted:Did Joe Biden announce he was running in 2020? Currently basically every credible Democrat that could run in 2020 is going to experience a flurry of hit pieces at some point or another, from either the right or left depending on who they are. It’s what happens when there isn’t a clear front runner, everyone would like to clear the field but that isn’t going to happen this time around. Anyone who expects [candidate] to blow through the primary because [reasons they think the candidate deserves to win] hasn’t been paying attention to the 2012 and 2016 Republican primaries. 2020 is going to be a primary bloodbath for the Dems and no one is going to have an easy time of it.
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Nov 19, 2017 10:10
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Lightning Knight posted:Currently basically every credible Democrat that could run in 2020 is going to experience a flurry of hit pieces at some point or another, from either the right or left depending on who they are. It’s what happens when there isn’t a clear front runner, everyone would like to clear the field but that isn’t going to happen this time around. They could just run Hillary again now that people saw the alternative.
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Nov 19, 2017 10:15
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Katt posted:They could just run Hillary again now that people saw the alternative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6CVvNRQcvE&t=6s
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Nov 19, 2017 10:22
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I swear you could predict the last few decades worth of elections by having a panel of 13 year old boys say which candidate they thought was the coolest. Hillary was serious, professional but never cool. Obama was very cool. Al Gore was a turbo nerd and Bush could larp a cowboy without breaking character. While checking Al Gores wiki page I found this endearing piece. quote:President-elect Donald Trump's daughter, Ivanka, reported that she intended to make climate change one of her signature issues, while her father served as President of the United States. She therefore contacted Al Gore, and he met with her and her father on December 5, 2016, at Trump Tower.[234] Following his visit, Gore spoke briefly to the media standing outside the elevator of Trump Tower. Gore related that: "I had a lengthy and very productive session with the president-elect. It was a sincere search for areas of common ground. I had a meeting beforehand with Ivanka Trump. The bulk of the time was with the president-elect, Donald Trump. I found it an extremely interesting conversation, and to be continued, and I'm just going to leave it at that."[235] This was a significant milestone, as Trump once tweeted that "[t]he concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive. Katt fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 10:35
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Katt posted:They could just run Hillary again now that people saw the alternative. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.ac6c811e215a
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Nov 19, 2017 11:03
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Inescapable Duck posted:It seems like feminism got absolutely chewed up and spat out by capitalism. Or maybe just white feminism. second wave feminism is basically this
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Nov 19, 2017 12:29
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Feminism is mostly okay. It certainly has issues (the whole herf terf thing) but I never see anyone argue it without having a huge amount of redpill baggage. They treat feminism like the civil rights movement. That it used to be great and important but now it has either lost its way or the groups already got their rights and now there's nothing to really left to fight for.
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Nov 19, 2017 12:41
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Leann accepted Al Franken's Apology, doesn't want to press charges, and doesn't think Franken should resign, shouldn't we respect the victims wishes for how they want to deal with this, or am I being crazy?
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Nov 19, 2017 12:48
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Turtlicious posted:Leann accepted Al Franken's Apology, doesn't want to press charges, and doesn't think Franken should resign, shouldn't we respect the victims wishes for how they want to deal with this, or am I being crazy? In terms of attempting to bring charges, yeah listen to the victim, but the man holds a powerful public office and needs to be held to a basic standard of "does not sexually assault people". He should step down as soon as it isn't a suicidal move in congress.
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Nov 19, 2017 13:57
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Katt posted:I swear you could predict the last few decades worth of elections by having a panel of 13 year old boys say which candidate they thought was the coolest. Otherwise known as "charisma" Turtlicious posted:Leann accepted Al Franken's Apology, doesn't want to press charges, and doesn't think Franken should resign, shouldn't we respect the victims wishes for how they want to deal with this, or am I being crazy? You're a bit crazy. That's great for her that she doesn't want him to, he should resign anyway. It's not just about her wishes.
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Nov 19, 2017 14:22
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Feminism is good and necessary (white feminism has serious issues, mind), but like anything else it becomes dumb when it stops being about principles and starts being about partisanship.
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Nov 19, 2017 15:42
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Feminism is also a massive tent without a uniform immediate goal (like suffrage was) at this point. It would basically be impossible for every aspect of it to be good.
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Nov 19, 2017 16:26
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To be fair, the main goal the second wave came to work towards politically was the Equal Rights Ammendment, which came reasonably close to passing in the late seventies. After it was defeated there have been a measures to re-introduce it every year in congress. But the steam of it has been completely lost.
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Nov 19, 2017 17:55
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So we should remove more agency from the victim for our own personal morals? I may not be understanding your arguments.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:25
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Turtlicious posted:So we should remove more agency from the victim for our own personal morals? I may not be understanding your arguments. This is ridiculous. Whether Franken should resign or not is a question that involves a whole lot more factors than just what the victim wants to happen. As a quick comparison, we don't let the victim decide the punishment for a crime either, and for good reasons.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:36
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I thought for certaim crimes victims could decide whether or not to press charges? I'm in California, so obviously state laws might be different.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:38
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Please don't get pedantic over an illustrative comparison, tia.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:41
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I'm legit wondering if in Frankens state rape is something you have to press charges for, I didn't mean to come off as pedantic. My bad man. E: To be clear I think what Franken did is tantamount to rape if not rape, which is why I asked. I absolutely think he should step down if the victim asks. Turtlicious fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 20:43
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Turtlicious posted:I'm legit wondering if in Frankens state rape is something you have to press charges for, I didn't mean to come off as pedantic. My bad man. you're putting forth a lot of effort to defend a man who groped a woman in her sleep and frenched her while knowing she was not interested in that
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Nov 19, 2017 21:32
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Also, Franken's actions are relevant to a judgement of his character, which is important to many voters/constituents. So even if the victim forgives him, his constituents can still think "we find it unacceptable to be represented by a person who did this thing."
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Nov 19, 2017 22:02
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Ytlaya posted:Also, Franken's actions are relevant to a judgement of his character, which is important to many voters/constituents. So even if the victim forgives him, his constituents can still think "we find it unacceptable to be represented by a person who did this thing." yeah, plus there's always the added angle of having to prevent future transgressions like this one. the victim forgiving him is nice and christian of her but that still shouldn't be grounds enough to keep him around as an elected representative of the people.
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Nov 19, 2017 22:12
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yeah, this isn't even so much about Franken as it is about the fears that if dems start to act on abuse (which is undoubtedly rampant in both parties) it will put them at a structural disadvantage because the GOP will not behave in kind. I don't think that's a good excuse, it's cynical as hell and basically ties feminism to the success of the democratic party in a really uncomfortable way that will almost certainly backfire in the long term
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Nov 19, 2017 22:40
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I'm the self avowed centrist, and Franken should have resigned already, or the DNC should have demanded it the moment he admitted to it. The DNC has a chance to take a moral stance in support of women who have been assaulted and harassed, but for some reason they appear to be circling the wagons. Not very promising when it is the obvious right thing to do outside of any political calculation. Add the political calculation on top of the moral reason, and there is literally no reason for him to stay.
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Nov 19, 2017 22:56
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The DNC has a chance to take a moral stance in support of women who have been assaulted and harassed, but for some reason they appear to be circling the wagons. What makes you think Democrats have any interest in morals? Did you miss the part where they nominated a war criminal last year?
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Nov 19, 2017 23:17
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Why won't the party responsible for completely abandoning labor and the downtrodden in the name of stacks of donor dollars take a moral stance? I dunno, beats me, I'm just a simple man who calls himself a centrist on the internet and calls leftists nazis.
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Nov 19, 2017 23:22
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The DNC has a chance to take a moral stance in support of women who have been assaulted and harassed, but for some reason they appear to be circling the wagons. Not very promising when it is the obvious right thing to do outside of any political calculation. Add the political calculation on top of the moral reason, and there is literally no reason for him to stay. e: Maybe the reason they are so bad at this is because of the reason some of them are here in the first place. Some are simply collecting paychecks and will defend the institutions paying them over the public good. Rodatose fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 00:28
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Rodatose posted:This is another chance to see if the democratic party has moved on from the behavior of the clinton years (this time w/ how they reacted to bill's sexual harassment) that turned many people off from political involvement, thanks to anyone involved having to be extremely cynical. So far, it looks like there are just too many people entrenched in staff/media positions living in the same type of insular culture that enables and excuses corruption. Meaning, if they respond to this, it'll yet again be too late to take advantage of the chance to send a message that things have changed. I think there is a definite and obvious cultural divide within the establishment Dems and the rest of us.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:18
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Turtlicious posted:I thought for certaim crimes victims could decide whether or not to press charges? I'm in California, so obviously state laws might be different.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:24
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sirtommygunn posted:In terms of attempting to bring charges, yeah listen to the victim, but the man holds a powerful public office and needs to be held to a basic standard of "does not sexually assault people". He should step down as soon as it isn't a suicidal move in congress. There's also been cases where victim's haven't wanted to press charges as to avoid the scrutiny that would arise, such as the woman that Ben Roethlisberger raped, among others. There's also been plenty of cases where victim's haven't wanted to press charges but police/DAs have, and this should be one of those times. Franken should have stepped down immediately, regardless of it was a suicidal move, but because it was and is the right thing to do. But in trying to shift the goalposts, the dems are going to get Roy Moore seated in Congress and lose the Franken seat to the GOP, who just have to say "Don't vote for an admitted rapist" and will win. It'll be another massive self-own and the dems will learn not a goddamn thing from it.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:40
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WampaLord posted:It's not just about her wishes. this sounds hella sketchy
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Nov 20, 2017 02:22
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Freakazoid_ posted:this sounds hella sketchy In other news, beating your wife just got a lot easier.
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Nov 20, 2017 03:14
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A bit rich coming from the liberals who are convinced that leftists are just eagerly waiting for the moment to throw women and minorities under the bus. (at least in theory, anyway) The point is that hypocrisy is killing the Democrats, they can't afford any more.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:00
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Inescapable Duck posted:A bit rich coming from the liberals who are convinced that leftists are just eagerly waiting for the moment to throw women and minorities under the bus. (at least in theory, anyway) Yes because that's a thing that's never happened before. Totally no long history of politicians loving over minorities as soon as they become an inconvenience, no siree.
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Nov 20, 2017 06:46
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