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CPColin posted:The authors of the bill disagree and so do I. Healthcare is a basic human right and I'm tired of compromising on the subject with assholes like you.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:20
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Dead Reckoning posted:They are criminals, and their presence is the fruit of a criminal act. They have no legitimate claim to the benefits our society created for lawful citizens, irrespective of their compliance with our tax laws. A person should not be able to buy citizenship. Why. Everyone has broken a law, literally everyone is a criminal. I don't see what makes crossing an imaginary line on a map any more heinous than say speeding or changing lanes without signaling and we don't take away someone's humanity and force them to live as part of a permanent rightless underclass forever for those. Really illegal immigration is actually considerably less heinous because unlike moving violations it doesn't actually put any lives in danger. If the feds find them and send them back fine, but if that's not happening then they should be treated with the same humanity as anyone else. Citizenship is a red herring btw, you don't have to let them vote, just give them the same treatment as any other resident. Dead Reckoning posted:I wholly agree on the underclass bit. The fact that enforcing our immigration laws is impractical at this time does not mean that the law is wrong. I'm in favor of extending citizenship to those brought here as minors as a one-time good deal, and deporting the rest. I'm confident you disagree, but until such time as we as a country figure out how we are going to normalize the situation, we should not take steps that allow illegal aliens to more easily integrate into our society, because that will only make the eventual resolution more difficult (unless you are a no borders/amnesty for all proponent.) No I disagree, if enforcing the law is impractical then the law is impractical. Either raise taxes and secure the necessary funding and manpower to enforce the law in a just and humane way, or admit that we don't want to do it and give these people the means necessary to live in dignity and security. What you're proposing is the worst of both worlds, where we don't enforce our immigration laws (because businesses want a rightless underclass to form a pool of desperate laborers to bid down wages) and we deliberately make society worse by forcing illegal immigrants into a rightless underclass who blah blah blah (because businesses want etc etc etc)
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Nov 20, 2017 04:23
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i'm going to create a proposition to seize DR and only DR's guns
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Nov 20, 2017 04:27
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Dead Reckoning posted:our own treasure 
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Nov 20, 2017 04:29
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can we all laugh at this fuckboy using latin and then also referring to are treasure like lmao i’m fuckin dyin
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Nov 20, 2017 04:31
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Imagine if we passed a law that required schools and hospitals to run your name and look for traffic warrants before you're allowed to enroll your children in school or receive medical treatment. That would be really bad, right? We'd end up with kids out of school and people unable to get any healthcare, and even though we might manage to get a few more people to take care of their traffic tickets, it wouldn't be worth it right? The law is intended to protect people and to better society. If your proposal to better enforce The Law ends up making society a worse place for everyone to live, then it's not a worthwhile proposal. Even if a few more criminals get punished, that's not the only, nor even the most important criteria by which we should be evaluating the results of our policies.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:33
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stone cold posted:can we all laugh at this fuckboy using latin and then also referring to are treasure 
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Nov 20, 2017 04:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:They are criminals, and their presence is the fruit of a criminal act. They have no legitimate claim to the benefits our society created for lawful citizens, irrespective of their compliance with our tax laws. A person should not be able to buy citizenship. They've violated no California laws by being an undocumented immigrant and 45% of undocumented immigrants have only made a civil federal offense by immigrating without authorization, not a criminal federal offense.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:52
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Dead Reckoning posted:They have no legitimate claim to the benefits our society created for lawful citizens Whether this benefit should be restricted to citizens is the question under discussion
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Nov 20, 2017 04:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:Ubi jus ibi remedium. If we create a national healthcare system, are we obliged to provide the same level of care to anyone, anywhere in the world who requests it, at the expense of our own treasure? If not, why not? You framed it as a universal human right after all. If you think that we are only obliged to provide it to those within our borders, why are you OK with limiting a human right only to those young, fit, and mobile enough to smuggle themselves to our shore, but not OK with limiting it to citizens? Healthcare is a universal human right and, as such, we should do what we can, within our sphere of influence, to provide it. "Our sphere of influence," in the context of a statewide single-payer system, is practically confined to our borders. I am okay with limiting the system to the people who live in the area where the system is in force. But your whole modus operandi is to be a contrarian, strawman-slaying rear end in a top hat, so why am I even responding to you?
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Nov 20, 2017 05:13
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We don't send social security checks to everyone in the world, therefore it can't be a human right so let's stack the bodies of indigent old people in the street like cordwood QED. If only everyone were perfectly rational just like me our problems would be over.
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Nov 20, 2017 05:18
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How much would it actually cost to care for them in addition to citizens? Helping everyone might be cheaper and more practical than funding and implementing a system that can reliably discriminate a natural born homeless citizen that has paid taxes for the past 30 years from an undocumented worker who may or may not have paid taxes.
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Nov 20, 2017 05:43
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stone cold posted:can we all laugh at this fuckboy using latin and then also referring to are treasure VitalSigns posted:Why. I'm not suggesting unpersoning illegal aliens because they committed a crime, they are still entitled to due process and various other protections, but I do think they should be deprived of the benefits of their crime. If you steal a car, you aren't entitled to keep using it just because you fill up the tank and change the oil. VitalSigns posted:Imagine if we passed a law that required schools and hospitals to run your name and look for traffic warrants before you're allowed to enroll your children in school or receive medical treatment. Forcing people to prove their immigration status in order to receive emergency care would certainly cut down on the problem of illegal immigrants and others receiving expensive benefits and then ducking out on the bill, but checking citizenship when emergency care is needed is not practical. Plus, the obligation to stabilize people in need of emergency care supersedes the law enforcement consideration. I'm fine with a hospital forcing people to prove their citizenship prior to receiving acute or long term in patient care subsidized by the taxpayer though. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 05:57
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not suggesting unpersoning illegal aliens because they committed a crime, they are still entitled to due process and various other protections, but I do think they should be deprived of the benefits of their crime. If you steal a car, you aren't entitled to keep using it just because you fill up the tank and change the oil. Stealing a car is not a good analogy because coming into the country is not stealing America. People who come here work and pay taxes and contribute to our social insurance like everyone else. The analogy in this case would be barring them from car ownership and all public transportation forever because they jumped a turnstile once. Dead Reckoning posted:School is a benefit primarily for children, not their parents. If you're of school age and have outstanding felony warrants... Yeah, you should probably have to fix that. Dead Reckoning posted:I'm fine with a hospital forcing people to prove their citizenship prior to receiving acute or long term care subsidized by the taxpayer though. Why. Why is that good, how does it benefit us to have an underclass of sick desperate people who are legally barred from receiving medical care. And why do you separate non-citizen residents and taxpayers as if those are separate groups. They are not. Residents pay state and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay state and local taxes. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 06:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:Yeah, can you believe these nerds who refer to the government department in charge of our money as "the treasury"? What does Steve Mnuchin think this is, Dungeons & Dragons? you said “our own treasure” fuckboy Dead Reckoning posted:Ubi jus ibi remedium. If we create a national healthcare system, are we obliged to provide the same level of care to anyone, anywhere in the world who requests it, at the expense of our own treasure? If not, why not? You framed it as a universal human right after all. If you think that we are only obliged to provide it to those within our borders, why are you OK with limiting a human right only to those young, fit, and mobile enough to smuggle themselves to our shore, but not OK with limiting it to citizens? so like i know you have a huge murderboner for non citizens since this and euphemism are strike two tonight but lol tryna act all pretentious when you haven’t even edited out your own typo  otherwise, it’s really hilarious if you actually think that referring to the us treasury as are treasure is cool because please tell me more about this....national treasure
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Nov 20, 2017 06:24
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VitalSigns posted:We don't send social security checks to everyone in the world, therefore it can't be a human right so let's stack the bodies of indigent old people in the street like cordwood QED. Technically true, since the dead don't have problems.
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Nov 20, 2017 06:25
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dead reckoning voice the perfidious illegal immigrant is attempting to plunder are national treasure by paying taxes and attempting to access services how dare these people want things like vaccines, to prevent the spread of disease
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Nov 20, 2017 06:26
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VitalSigns posted:Why. Why DR is a monster, do not argue with them just tell them to gently caress off also sign my petition to put prop 42069: seize DR's guns on the ballot
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Nov 20, 2017 06:34
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I guess as long as you have people who insist that immigrants "steal" jobs and social services rather than the reality of them contributing to economic demand and (overpaid) taxes, you'll get stuff like people equating them with actual criminals.
Lycus fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 06:51
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Plyler v. Doe (1982): Denial of public services because of immigration status violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.
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Nov 20, 2017 07:00
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Raskolnikov38 posted:also sign my petition to put prop 42069: seize DR's guns on the ballot Only if you first sign mine for a new constitutional amendment: "bills of attainder are a-ok but only for DR"
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Nov 20, 2017 07:04
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stone cold posted:you said “our own treasure” fuckboy VitalSigns posted:Yes you are suggesting that, because you're denying them the basic essentials of human life because of a civil offense. I'm not denying them the essentials of human life. They have the option of immigrating legally, or remaining in their countries of origin to receive care from their health systems. Just because you believe that "people have a right to eat" doesn't mean you think it is OK for a hungry person to break into your house and take food from your refrigerator. Why is it acceptable to say that people living in Reno are to be denied California's health care, but suggesting that people in California illegally should be denied is monstrous? Is your argument purely financial, that illegal aliens pay consumption and possibly income taxes, and are therefore entitled? VitalSigns posted:Why. Why is barring people from receiving an education a good idea. How does that benefit society. VitalSigns posted:We don't send social security checks to everyone in the world, therefore it can't be a human right so let's stack the bodies of indigent old people in the street like cordwood QED.
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Nov 20, 2017 07:44
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CPColin posted:Healthcare is a universal human right and, as such, we should do what we can, within our sphere of influence, to provide it. "Our sphere of influence," in the context of a statewide single-payer system, is practically confined to our borders. I am okay with limiting the system to the people who live in the area where the system is in force. And you wouldn't be here if you didn't love arguing. Let's embrace it together as we rhetorically claw each other's eyes out, locked in a savage spiral on the slowly-going-bankrupt internet forum vortex. Raskolnikov38 posted:also sign my petition to put prop 42069: seize DR's guns on the ballot Doc Hawkins posted:Only if you first sign mine for a new constitutional amendment: "bills of attainder are a-ok but only for DR"
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Nov 20, 2017 07:46
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I can’t believe I’m arguing with DR, but... Allowing undocumented immigrants who live in California to access routine and preventative healthcare services means that they will be able to catch conditions earlier, before they develop into more serious problems, saving the state money in the long run.
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Nov 20, 2017 08:25
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E: succinctnessDead Reckoning posted:Because if you are wanted by the police for aggravated assault or armed robbery or dealing drugs to minors, then we should determine whether you are a threat to others before you are allowed to share a public classroom with other children. Perhaps receiving your education in a different setting might be in everyone's best interest. Dead Reckoning posted:Why is it acceptable to say that people living in Reno are to be denied California's health care, but suggesting that people in California illegally should be denied is monstrous? Is your argument purely financial, that illegal aliens pay consumption and possibly income taxes, and are therefore entitled? Healthcare, education, shelter, sustenance, these are universal human rights. That they are not currently provided to every human being is an obstacle to be overcome and a battle to be won, it is not an argument that no one deserves these things. The practical or financial inability of our town or our state to feed and clothe and care for the entire world or even for the whole country singlehandedly is not an excuse to deny these necessities to the people who live in our own communities whom we do have the ability and resources to help. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 08:38
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I saw 40 new posts and thought maybe something big had happened, but instead it's just idiots trying to engage Dead Reckoning.
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Nov 20, 2017 08:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:But we're talking about people in the area under false or unlawful circumstances. Their residence, their presence, is rooted in subversion of the law and deception. If a Nevada resident hopped a Greyhound into the state with falsified papers purporting to show that they had a California residence in order to claim benefits, you would be OK with denying them, yes? If so, how is that so different from someone who uses a fake social security card and fake drivers license to get a job and an apartment? Ways people come to live in the US without valid documents through no fault of their own (a partial list): they were children brought by family members and had no say in the matter, they were fleeing violence or persecution and would be dead if they'd waited to clear the Kafkaesque asylum process, they were smuggled in by traffickers to serve as literal slaves, they were actively recruited by American businesses to provide cheap labor with the promise of legal residency and were trapped in limbo when that residency fell through. Please tell me why these people are undeserving of basic rights and human dignity.
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Nov 20, 2017 09:49
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Dead Reckoning posted:They are criminals, and their presence is the fruit of a criminal act. They have no legitimate claim to the benefits our society created for lawful citizens, irrespective of their compliance with our tax laws. A person should not be able to buy citizenship. This may be hard for you to understand but criminals are human beings too and they do in fact receive health care.
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Nov 20, 2017 10:05
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Dead Reckoning posted:Are you completely unfamiliar with the idea of referring to a nation's wealth as its "treasure", or are you seriously so mad at my posting that you decided to rant about typos and diction? lol buddy if you think people telling to laugh at how idiotic you are is “mad” well that would explain a lot about your extremely caremad posting
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Nov 20, 2017 10:07
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Actually our prisons are legally obligated to safeguard the welfare of inmates so they currently receive better healthcare than "criminal" undocumented immigrants.
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Nov 20, 2017 10:08
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dead reckoning reminds me a lot of mitch mcconnell crying his turtle tears when he couldn’t take away health care from millions of americans
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Nov 20, 2017 10:09
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Dead Reckoning posted:If a Nevada resident hopped a Greyhound into the state with falsified papers purporting to show that they had a California residence in order to claim benefits, you would be OK with denying them, yes? If so, how is that so different from someone who uses a fake social security card and fake drivers license to get a job and an apartment? See this? This is a strawman. You constructed an opinion, assumed I shared it, and argued against it. Knock it the gently caress off.
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Nov 20, 2017 16:20
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Instant Sunrise posted:Allowing undocumented immigrants who live in California to access routine and preventative healthcare services means that they will be able to catch conditions earlier, before they develop into more serious problems, saving the state money in the long run. VitalSigns posted:Ah now we're at the point where you equate overstaying a visa to armed robbery or beating someone nearly to death in order to justify the inhumane treatment you want to apply jfc VitalSigns posted:Healthcare, education, shelter, sustenance, these are universal human rights. That they are not currently provided to every human being is an obstacle to be overcome and a battle to be won, it is not an argument that no one deserves these things. The practical or financial inability of our town or our state to feed and clothe and care for the entire world or even for the whole country singlehandedly is not an excuse to deny these necessities to the people who live in our own communities whom we do have the ability and resources to help. Illegal immigrants' presence in our communities is the fruit of a crime. This is what distinguishes them from ordinary citizens who happen to speed or shoplift. It is in the interests of justice that criminals be denied the ability to benefit from their crimes, so people who are here illegally should not be allowed to receive economic benefits (like state assistance and free healthcare) that are reserved for lawful residents of the state. (Exceptions can be made for minors and others who can demonstrate that their violation was not a voluntary act on their part.) stone cold posted:dead reckoning reminds me a lot of mitch mcconnell crying his turtle tears when he couldn’t take away health care from millions of americans Cup Runneth Over posted:Actually our prisons are legally obligated to safeguard the welfare of inmates so they currently receive better healthcare than "criminal" undocumented immigrants. CPColin posted:See this? This is a strawman. You constructed an opinion, assumed I shared it, and argued against it. Knock it the gently caress off.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:33
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Dead Reckoning posted:The state has a very different relationship with and set of obligations to people who are involuntarily in its custody than those who have snuck across its border illegally. Illegal aliens are free to leave, prisoners are not. So you agree that undocumented immigrants are not merely "criminals"? Since they have a very different relationship and set of obligations than people who do illegal things. None of that withstanding the fact that, much like actual criminals (who must be taken care of because they are human beings), undocumented immigrants are also human beings who deserve to continue living. Dead Reckoning posted:Remind me, what's your beef with me again? Everyone in this thread hates you, dude.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:37
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Dead Reckoning posted:Illegal immigrants' presence in our communities is the fruit of a crime. This is what distinguishes them from ordinary citizens who happen to speed or shoplift. It is in the interests of justice that criminals be denied the ability to benefit from their crimes, so people who are here illegally should not be allowed to receive economic benefits (like state assistance and free healthcare) that are reserved for lawful residents of the state. (Exceptions can be made for minors and others who can demonstrate that their violation was not a voluntary act on their part.) Plyler v. Doe 457 U.S. 202 (1982): Denial of public services because of immigration status violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:41
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dead reckoning: outlines why in his noble opinion filthy illegals stealing are treasure shouldn’t get health care and are all criminals who must be met with punishment also dead reckoning: “hey how come nobody likes me?”
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Nov 20, 2017 18:43
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Dead Reckoning posted:If a Nevada resident hopped a Greyhound into the state with falsified papers purporting to show that they had a California residence in order to claim benefits, would you would be OK with denying them? I don't want healthcare providers wasting their time trying to figure out who is and isn't eligible; I want them spending their time providing healthcare. So no, I would not be okay with denying them. You knew this already, because I objected to your assumption, but you asked again anyway, so you could continue making GBS threads up the thread. I regret engaging with you, because it's pointless.
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Nov 20, 2017 18:46
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Instant Sunrise posted:Plyler v. Doe 457 U.S. 202 (1982): Denial of public services because of immigration status violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment. Also, Martinez v. Bynum 461 U.S. 321 (1983) affirmed the right of states to establish residency requirements for public services. So for California to offer free health care to California residents only by establishing a residency requirement, and also offer those health care services to undocumented immigrants who's residence is in the state of California is perfectly legal. The real question is, why does dead reckoning want to break the law Instant Sunrise fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 18:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:
You've said this like 6 times and it's actually not true. There are a dozen or more different types of cases for people that don't have documentation (other posters have mentioned some.) Undocumented people are not "illegal". That term doesn't even have a well understood legal meaning. Also, "fruit of a crime"? Really? What is this, the old testament? That's another concept with no meaning, it just sounds flowery and dramatic. What was the crime? What was the benefit? Was harm inflicted? What is the punishment? Is it reasonable in relation to the severity of the crime? Even if it's reasonable, is it cruel and unusual? How long ago was the crime committed? Are there specific details that matter? These are all questions that matter and that you don't seem give a poo poo about.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:06
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i think we can all agree that DR's posts in this thread are the real national treasure
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Nov 20, 2017 19:08
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