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The potential issue with an investigation is that a lot of instances of sexual assault are inherently impossible to prove, despite actually happening. It makes sense to still require such proof in order to punish someone within the legal system, but in the context of "should this person resign from being a politician" that sort of proof isn't required and we can reasonably say "this guy probably sexually assaulted this woman" even if concrete proof didn't exist. So an investigation in this kind of situation carries the risk of exonerating someone who actually did something bad. Not that this would be likely to happen in the Franken situation specifically (since it seems like it would probably be possible to more or less prove this, especially since part even has photo evidence), but I just want to point out that there are potential downsides to this sort of thing (at least opposed to the person just resigning).
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Nov 22, 2017 02:19
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Ytlaya posted:in the context of "should this person resign from being a politician" that sort of proof isn't required and we can reasonably say "this guy probably sexually assaulted this woman" even if concrete proof didn't exist. edit: I guess with a follow up of "If Al Franken, and literally only Al Franken, is the only United States citizen capable of performing the job of "Democratic US Senator of Minnesota", then our democracy has bigger problems than our politicians assaulting people (which is still very bad)". twodot fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 02:27
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https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/933138116977754112 Yeah, I know his opponent is a pedo monster. Yeah, I know he prosecuted the KKK and won in Alabama of all states. Yes I know he’s still probably better than most senate D’s. Yet the worthlessness of this party just has to find the time to rears its head and spite the future.
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Nov 22, 2017 02:50
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/933138116977754112 Sadly, he still is better then Machin.
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Nov 22, 2017 03:22
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Ytlaya posted:The potential issue with an investigation is that a lot of instances of sexual assault are inherently impossible to prove, despite actually happening. It makes sense to still require such proof in order to punish someone within the legal system, but in the context of "should this person resign from being a politician" that sort of proof isn't required and we can reasonably say "this guy probably sexually assaulted this woman" even if concrete proof didn't exist. Yeah, the burden for civil trials isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it's preponderance of the evidence (in other words is it more likely than not that it happened, in other words, literally, he's probably not innocent). If it's good enough for civil penalties it's good enough for professional consequences like demanding a resignation. And in this case we have photographic evidence of Franken sexually assaulting this woman so...
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Nov 22, 2017 03:27
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I hope I'm wrong but Jones is probably going to lose. If you can't stand up for working people against the corporations when your opponent's pedophilia is so radioactive even the robber barons dare not support him, what loving good are you.
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Nov 22, 2017 03:30
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If there is one thing Alabamans love, it's corporate tax cuts. Are any major corporations even headquartered in Alabama?
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Nov 22, 2017 03:32
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MooselanderII posted:If there is one thing Alabamans love, it's corporate tax cuts. Lots of companies have warehouses/shipping centers there. Every state in America has a large corporate presence at this point in one form or another.
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Nov 22, 2017 03:33
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MooselanderII posted:Are any major corporations even headquartered in Alabama? a few that deal with construction supply and stuff in birmingham, and nasa has a large presence in huntsville
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Nov 22, 2017 03:50
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WampaLord posted:Lots of companies have warehouses/shipping centers there. Every state in America has a large corporate presence at this point in one form or another. I get that, but my point is that there is less of a natural constituency for earnest corporate tax cuts in Alabama of all places.
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Nov 22, 2017 03:50
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MooselanderII posted:I get that, but my point is that there is less of a natural constituency for earnest corporate tax cuts in Alabama of all places. Yup, there isn't. It's dumbass pandering to a demographic that doesn't exist here for the sake of appearing willing to look after conservative interests if elected.
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Nov 22, 2017 04:18
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VitalSigns posted:I hope I'm wrong but Jones is probably going to lose. I’m not sure why you’ve said this, considering his issue page lists a living wage and healthcare as a right as key points. It’s not the ideal progressive wet dream type of platform but it’s mind blowing for a guy running in Alabama. Has he made some kind of public statement indicating he’s anti-progressive? Edit: you guys are talking like there’s some kind of news story about Jones I haven’t seen. twodot posted:I'm not trying to speak for Ytlaya, I just agree with this, and I'd like to take this reasoning a step further. Even if I had 100% concrete proof the politician was innocent (like I was with them at the times or whatever), I'd still argue it's better to discard tainted politicians. Like surely we can find an equivalently smart human with equivalent policies that doesn't have people accusing them of assault? In some hypothetical scenario where Republicans have weaponized their voting base into massively generating false accusations we can revise that strategy, but I simply don't believe that the job of Democratic politician is so difficult that we can't replace them in the current environment. This is kind of a strange thing to say, false accusations are rare in practice so worrying about them or some conservative conspiracy to repudiate progressives is mostly pointless. If there was a scenario where there was some way to prove that an accusation was false it wouldn’t be good to let it stand, if only because it isn’t really fair to allow someone’s reputation and career get torched over something that isn’t true. But again, that’s such a pie in the sky scenario because the reality as it stands is that false accusations of sexual misconduct are very rare. That said, people aren’t “equivalent.” If for example we had a minority representative who was replaced by a non-minority representative of similar views, a number of people would still feel frustrated by the loss of representation and the loss of other perspectives in lawmaking. Not only that, but while many people may hold similar views, they are not necessarily evenly distributed across the country. A progressive politician in a conservative area may actually be irreplaceable, at least in the near term. That isn’t to say that misconduct of any kind should be excused because someone is not easily replaced politically or their seat is at risk of flipping if they are removed. But it’s important to understand that political representatives are people who have attributes besides their politics that voters connect with and appreciate. For example, many people have roughly similar or more progressive political views as Bernie and are equally as capable of being a Senator, and yet many people would prefer Bernie to any other candidate for their Senator or President for other reasons than his platform. These other qualities aren’t just interchangeable. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 04:43
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And it’s real obvious, now. “Well we’d all love corporate tax cuts but not like this, oh no. These sons of bitches are all quietly toeing the same line and I’m loving sick of the good cop horseshit that Bernie and Warren provide them.
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Nov 22, 2017 04:45
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Lightning Knight posted:I’m not sure why you’ve said this, considering his issue page lists a living wage and healthcare as a right as key points. It’s not the ideal progressive wet dream type of platform but it’s mind blowing for a guy running in Alabama. It was posted above. Apparently Jones is in favor of corporate tax cuts, just not the current GOP tax plan. https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/933138116977754112
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Nov 22, 2017 04:50
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Roland Jones posted:It was posted above. Apparently Jones is in favor of corporate tax cuts, just not the current GOP tax plan. Ah I see, my bad. That’s unfortunate, but not unusual. I wouldn’t characterize that as disqualifying for where and what he’s running for but it’s not ideal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Nov 22, 2017 04:53
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“Let’s pray for somebody to save us.” Ahah. https://twitter.com/amjoyshow/status/931920346931957760 Imbeciles.
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Nov 22, 2017 05:43
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Either NPR or Marketplace (forget which) had a spot today bemoaning how the GOP tax bill would make it harder for people buying million dollar houses. Like, the tax bill is definitely bad, but that's a pretty weird angle to take.
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Nov 22, 2017 06:28
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Ytlaya posted:Either NPR or Marketplace (forget which) had a spot today bemoaning how the GOP tax bill would make it harder for people buying million dollar houses. Well their main donors are rich boomers.
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Nov 22, 2017 06:48
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 I know he's a badguy but this is going to turn racist in negative -10 seconds.
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Nov 22, 2017 07:16
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Lightning Knight posted:This is kind of a strange thing to say, false accusations are rare in practice so worrying about them or some conservative conspiracy to repudiate progressives is mostly pointless. If there was a scenario where there was some way to prove that an accusation was false it wouldn’t be good to let it stand, if only because it isn’t really fair to allow someone’s reputation and career get torched over something that isn’t true. But again, that’s such a pie in the sky scenario because the reality as it stands is that false accusations of sexual misconduct are very rare.
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Nov 22, 2017 07:20
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twodot posted:Ok, but we agree with current politicians in current reality, there's no point in worrying about where accusations are real or not? We should just discard tainted politicians in favor of effectively identical politicians that don't have accusers saying they are terrible people? I mean, I suppose? I disagree with your idea that politicians are “effectively identical,” or at least in the implied context of left-wing progressive candidates, and with your implied categorization of them as things off an assembly line. Politicians are human and people, at least those who support them, empathize with them. It’s understandable that people who looked up to Franken, for example, want to defend him or are skeptical. It’s a human reaction, up to a point. What’s not ok is making the jump from “I’m skeptical of the situation as reported” to victim blaming, standard patriarchal dismissals of sexual misconduct in general, or dismissal of victims’ credibility outright or right to make a claim. “Believe women” doesn’t mean we have to automatically side with the accuser all the time, it just means we have to afford them the benefit of the doubt and respect their desire to be heard, and not automatically assume a devil’s advocate stance in favor of the accused as is the standard practice for bad men behaving badly. In the overwhelming majority of cases like this, there’s going to be multiple victims. It is most likely that in most of these cases, the person accused probably did at least some of what they’re accused of. Proposing broad hypotheticals about how “even if they were fake we should force the accused out” is pointless when at this point, we don’t even know what a false accusation scenario would look like. It implies that you expect such a scenario will happen often enough to even worry about, when both anecdote and evidence don’t support that notion. I suppose I don’t really disagree with you? So much as I think you’re worrying about something that isn’t a real problem, at least at the present time, and I disagree with both implying that false reports are presently significant enough to concern ourselves with in this context or that politicians are easily replaceable commodities rather than complex people that (ideally) will connect with voters on a human level and, you know, represent them.
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Nov 22, 2017 07:37
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Katt posted:
I miss Blingee.
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Nov 22, 2017 09:30
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edit: wrong thread.
double nine fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 10:15
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Lightning Knight posted:I suppose I don’t really disagree with you? So much as I think you’re worrying about something that isn’t a real problem, at least at the present time, and I disagree with both implying that false reports are presently significant enough to concern ourselves with in this context or that politicians are easily replaceable commodities rather than complex people that (ideally) will connect with voters on a human level and, you know, represent them. Like 90% of politicians are just commodified votes on bills. In a body of 100 people you can't have 100 leaders. And when you are one of two people that represent 5.5 million people 1) you can't actually represent 5.5 million views and 2) you have no chance of connecting with even 1% of them on a human level. The notion that US Senators are people who need protections and not immensely powerful political offices that we need defenses from needs to be discarded.
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Nov 22, 2017 18:43
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Inescapable Duck posted:I miss Blingee. you got me scared that they closed the site or something, so i had to check never take my blingee away
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Nov 22, 2017 23:47
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twodot posted:I'm not trying to speak for Ytlaya, I just agree with this, and I'd like to take this reasoning a step further. Even if I had 100% concrete proof the politician was innocent (like I was with them at the times or whatever), I'd still argue it's better to discard tainted politicians. Like surely we can find an equivalently smart human with equivalent policies that doesn't have people accusing them of assault? In some hypothetical scenario where Republicans have weaponized their voting base into massively generating false accusations we can revise that strategy, but I simply don't believe that the job of Democratic politician is so difficult that we can't replace them in the current environment. I don't know of any organization where you can just replace skilled people like cogs in a wheel; it just doesn't work that way. But particualy for congress, seniority is very important to being an effective legislator. New people almost never make major accomplishments or sit on relevant committees. And then there's institutional knowledge, the working relationships and so on. I would guess this is also why the general consensus in studies is that term limits are a very bad thing, at least on the legislative level. But also I don't think you can simply handwave away how exploitable this is not only by republicans but by governments like Russia. They are only going to get better and if our elections come down to how convincingly one side and slime and slander the other we might as well hand them the keys because that's their wheelhouse. JeffersonClay posted:I think it would almost certainly be better for Franken, personally, if he resigned now. He wants an investigation because he thinks it will vindicate him, which seems very unlikely. I’m happy to let him have the investigation because I think a big public spectacle about sexual harassment and assault culminating in his resignation or removal has some benefits that we wouldn’t get if he just resigns right now for his family or whatever. Are you correct about anything? This story is already losing steam and if no other allegations come out he ain't going anywhere. Conyers is most likely staying as well. It seems extremely likely the result of the investigation will be that nobody gives a gently caress anymore, if they even do today. I can't help but think that much like the focus on police shootings and the Black Lives Matter movement, attention is going to shift and people will focus on something else.
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Nov 23, 2017 00:19
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tsa posted:I don't know of any organization where you can just replace skilled people like cogs in a wheel; it just doesn't work that way. But particualy for congress, seniority is very important to being an effective legislator. quote:New people almost never make major accomplishments or sit on relevant committees. quote:And then there's institutional knowledge, the working relationships and so on. quote:But also I don't think you can simply handwave away how exploitable this is not only by republicans but by governments like Russia. They are only going to get better and if our elections come down to how convincingly one side and slime and slander the other we might as well hand them the keys because that's their wheelhouse. twodot fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 23, 2017 |
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Nov 23, 2017 00:30
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tsa posted:Are you correct about anything? This story is already losing steam and if no other allegations come out he ain't going anywhere. Conyers is most likely staying as well. It seems extremely likely the result of the investigation will be that nobody gives a gently caress anymore, if they even do today. I can't help but think that much like the focus on police shootings and the Black Lives Matter movement, attention is going to shift and people will focus on something else. An active investigation keeps the story in the news and makes it more likely additional victims come forward. Resignations are designed to end media cycles and diminish the motivation for additional victims to speak out. Nobody giving a gently caress anymore is a risk whether Franken resigns tomorrow or in six months. Having a contentious investigation makes it less likely people stop paying attention. Oh and https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/933488601505173506 The story is losing all steam! JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Nov 23, 2017 |
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Nov 23, 2017 02:19
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JeffersonClay posted:An active investigation keeps the story in the news and makes it more likely additional victims come forward. Resignations are designed to end media cycles and diminish the motivation for additional victims to speak out. Nobody giving a gently caress anymore is a risk whether Franken resigns tomorrow or in six months. Having a contentious investigation makes it less likely people stop paying attention. This is a really poo poo opinion. You just want to slut-shame women who haven't come out yet because they're aware of what kind of backlash being in the media spotlight will be like. What do they gain by speaking out? Does he double-resign? Triple-resign? quadrouple-double-dog-resign if they spend enough time having the supposed left dissect their life to find anything that could be used to defend are team? It's entirely appropriate for a victim who hasn't come forward to be satisfied that his career is gone without them having to deal with all that poo poo that he put on them.
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Nov 23, 2017 16:11
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Harik posted:You just want to slut-shame women who haven't come out yet because they're aware of what kind of backlash being in the media spotlight will be like. What quote:What do they gain by speaking out? Does he double-resign? Triple-resign? quadrouple-double-dog-resign if they spend enough time having the supposed left dissect their life to find anything that could be used to defend are team? Yes, this is exactly why Franken resigning now would result in fewer victims coming forward. I have no idea what point you're trying to make and I don't think you do either. Like are you saying it makes no difference if more victims come forward? I think it does. There's a collective action problem here, and every victim that comes forward makes it easier for the next one to come forward. Resignations are intended to thwart that dynamic.
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Nov 23, 2017 23:24
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Optimal pragmatism; never resign, never acknowledge, infinite victims, deny, deflect, more polling, triangulate, investigate, committee consensus, delay
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Nov 24, 2017 00:25
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What is the electorally optimal amount of victims that must come forward before we acknowledge victimizers shouldn't be in power, let's go to the focus groups
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Nov 24, 2017 01:38
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VitalSigns posted:What is the electorally optimal amount of victims that must come forward before we acknowledge victimizers shouldn't be in power, let's go to the focus groups That's easy: [the number of victims that have come forward] + 1. It's a moving target, granted, but you can't be too careful about these things.
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Nov 24, 2017 01:54
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I'm sure there's a point where you can just declare it old news whenever a new person comes forward.
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Nov 24, 2017 02:10
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VitalSigns posted:What is the electorally optimal amount of victims that must come forward before we acknowledge victimizers shouldn't be in power, let's go to the focus groups Rodatose fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Nov 24, 2017 |
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Nov 24, 2017 02:12
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Rodatose posted:i did some fifth dimensional political calculus to optimize the harassment reaction levels. it involves making yourself so unlikeable that you lose in 2018 and 2020 ITS HER TURN!
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Nov 24, 2017 02:51
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Falstaff posted:That's easy: [the number of victims that have come forward] + 1. USPOL 2018: n+1 Sexual Assaults
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Nov 24, 2017 04:29
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I think we can all agree that provided the sexual harassment allegations against a sitting Senator form a countable set, that Senator need not resign. But if we can't form a one-to-one correspondence between the allegations and a subset of the natural numbers, that Senator must step down.
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Nov 24, 2017 08:16
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Kilroy posted:I think we can all agree that provided the sexual harassment allegations against a sitting Senator form a countable set, that Senator need not resign. But if we can't form a one-to-one correspondence between the allegations and a subset of the natural numbers, that Senator must step down. You just know that if they found a senator whose harassment victims form an uncountable set the usual suspects would claims that it doesn't count because the set is Lebesgue measurable or something.
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Nov 24, 2017 09:36
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#ElsaGate is real! https://www.wsj.com/articles/youtube-faces-fresh-backlash-after-ads-appear-near-pedophile-comments-1511532337 quote:A fresh wave of advertisers suspended commercials on YouTube after their ads showed up next to videos that appeared to attract pedophile viewers and comments.
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Nov 24, 2017 20:16
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