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Kilroy posted:This is all 100% true, and completely consistent with the proposition that they are people. Not all people deserve pity and compassion. You're confused about what a person is. A fetus isn't a person. A nazi isn't a person. Both have aspects we would ascribe to a person, but neither is.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:03
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| # ? May 23, 2024 19:41 |
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Some of you don't seem to understand what a Nazi is.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:03
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stone cold posted:you’re telling km, a black Jew, that actually nazis aren’t monsters they’re really people
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Nov 28, 2017 21:03
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Kilroy posted:Por que no los dos? I mean yeah you’re doing that and you’re Kilroy posted:putting [her] "in [her] place". so in that sense you can have it both ways I guess
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Nov 28, 2017 21:05
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RuanGacho posted:Some of you don't seem to understand what a Nazi is. It is a frog?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:05
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I thought Nazis were a type of slug so this revelation that they're actually a kind of hairless monkey is really useful and illuminating, and not stupid and pointless at all.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:05
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stone cold posted:nazis aren’t people why is this controversial y’all got goddamn brain spiders or some poo poo I don't think anyone (in this particular thread/discussion) is saying they're people as an attempt to humanize them or empathize with them. They're saying it to highlight the fact that some people can become irredeemable monsters. To use an analogy, it's like if Nazis were germs; the fact that it helps to know where germs come from (and that washing your hands helps or whatever) doesn't change the fact that you still want to kill them. It's useful to examine what sort of circumstances lead to more people becoming monsters, and identifying those circumstances doesn't in any way excuse the people in question. Honestly, I don't think it makes sense to draw a hard line between Nazis and "regular" conservatives. I think the same sort of mindset is involved in both cases, just taken to an extreme with the Nazis (and I think many conservatives could easily become Nazis under the right circumstances; if Naziism were treated as "normal" and the history of WW2 didn't exist, I absolutely believe a significant portion of conservatives would join them). I don't mean this to imply anything good about Nazis, but rather to imply something bad about conservatives. JeffersonClay posted:FDR was absolutely as bad as Hitler? Not as bad (being that wealthy isn't equivalent to killing literally millions of people), but still very very bad, yes. A conservative (or fascist or whatever) wealthy person is worse than a more liberal/progressive wealthy person, but they're both deeply immoral. edit: Like, the logic is pretty irrefutable here. If you accept that 1. countless people suffer due to a lack of money and 2. our economy is deeply unfair (honestly 2 isn't necessary, but it makes things even worse), then it is obvious that it is extremely immoral for a person to retain great wealth. There is literally no difference between that and any other situation where a person could effortlessly help people and chooses not to, and the magnitude is much, much greater due to the degree of wealth involved. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Nov 28, 2017 |
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Nov 28, 2017 21:06
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HootTheOwl posted:You're confused about what a person is. A fetus isn't a person. A nazi isn't a person. Both have aspects we would ascribe to a person, but neither is. But, like I said, it is splitting hairs - we both agree on what to actually do. And I came into this late and apparently rehashed some arguments other posters already made. I definitely agree with the sentiment that it isn't worth going on for pages about it.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:07
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GlyphGryph posted:I have no loving clue why some people in this thread are so goddamn butthurt about calling Nazi's people, but they really do. You're the one who got all full of piss and vinegar and decided that you really needed to tell other people at length that they're somehow lying to themselves because they disagreed with your preferred label, buddo. You kept this up while telling the people who you were insulting that it makes zero practical difference. So you don't really get an equivalency out of this no matter how hard you try. Koalas March posted:because they have a pathological need to be right and feel superior by putting the oppressed in their place while claiming to be their allies. Fishmech syndrome seems like the most likely explanation, yeah.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:07
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Kilroy posted:When you phrase it that way, to me, it sounds like you're trying to partially absolve them of their sins. It sounds like you're robbing them of their agency at the same time as insisting they must be destroying. I don't want to rob them of their agency, they chose to be what they are, and must be destroyed for it. calling nazis monsters is absolving them of their sins -an idiot
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Nov 28, 2017 21:08
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stone cold posted:I mean yeah you’re doing that and you’re
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Nov 28, 2017 21:08
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stone cold posted:you’re telling km, a black Jew, that actually nazis aren’t monsters they’re really people They're both. Which is the point the socialists in this thread have been making and you've been doing your best to misrepresent.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:08
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Ornedan posted:They're both. Which is the point the socialists in this thread have been making and you've been doing your best to misrepresent. Koalas March posted:They are not men. They are monsters.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:09
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stone cold posted:calling nazis monsters is absolving them of their sins
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Nov 28, 2017 21:10
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Being a nazi is an act of dehumanization in and of itself. The inherent belief is that you and an arbitrary group are virtually of another species since you're more evolved than the rest of humanity. Humanizing them only leads to their beliefs being sympathetic and therefore gives them legitimacy; the worst you can say about dehumanizing a nazi is that it means viewing them in a lens that they're asking to be viewed.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:10
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Kilroy posted:A monster doesn't have the same level of responsibility for its actions that a person has. Right? monsters go to war crimes tribunals and the icc so.........you’re stupid
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Nov 28, 2017 21:10
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Ornedan posted:They're both. Which is the point the socialists in this thread have been making and you've been doing your best to misrepresent. what is the point, goal or endgame in telling someone that their view of their oppressor is wrong? what is the point, goal, or endgame of telling me that the people who want me dead are *~*just human beings*~*
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Nov 28, 2017 21:10
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Kilroy posted:When you phrase it that way, to me, it sounds like you're trying to partially absolve them of their sins. It sounds like you're robbing them of their agency at the same time as insisting they must be destroying. I don't want to rob them of their agency, they chose to be what they are, and must be destroyed for it. I am having trouble understanding how you parsed a death sentence as absolution. EDIT: By labeling themselves as an ideology they are choosing to dehumanizing themselves. I am just willing to go a step further and fully dehumanize them into a corpse.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:11
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Koalas March posted:because they have a pathological need to be right and feel superior by putting the oppressed in their place while claiming to be their allies. I apologize if I'm coming off like that, but it really isn't the case. I sure as hell don't feel superior to you, or really anybody here, for disagreeing with you. Your opinion matters, and I do take it into consideration, even if I don't agree with it in the end. And now I sound like the whitest whitebread suburbanite I've ever encountered. I'm poo poo at explaining my viewpoint in any way but the literal.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:11
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Talmonis posted:And now I sound like the whitest whitebread suburbanite I've ever encountered. I'm poo poo at explaining my viewpoint in any way but the literal. maybe you're just wrong just a thought
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Nov 28, 2017 21:12
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whole bunch of nyt reporters up in here getting weepy about goddamn nazis
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Nov 28, 2017 21:12
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stone cold posted:monsters go to war crimes tribunals and the icc HootTheOwl posted:I am having trouble understanding how you parsed a death sentence as absolution. Anyway, I'm done with this. Like I've already stated several times this is splitting hairs anyway, and I certainly agree I have no business telling oppressed people how to view their oppressors.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:15
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MizPiz posted:Being a nazi is an act of dehumanization in and of itself. The inherent belief is that you and an arbitrary group are virtually of another species since you're more evolved than the rest of humanity. Humanizing them only leads to their beliefs being sympathetic and therefore gives them legitimacy; the worst you can say about dehumanizing a nazi is that it means viewing them in a lens that they're asking to be viewed. They consider themselves literally higher on the predator chain than the rest of humanity. Someone, who literally chooses this ideology is a monster. I know that's a bit of nuance but that's the difference.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:15
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Koalas March posted:what is the point, goal or endgame in telling someone that their view of their oppressor is wrong?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:15
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Talmonis posted:I apologize if I'm coming off like that, but it really isn't the case. I sure as hell don't feel superior to you, or really anybody here, for disagreeing with you. Your opinion matters, and I do take it into consideration, even if I don't agree with it in the end. I get it, I am awful at expressing myself and communicating. but it's honestly so condescending to tell someone.... well honestly the last 3 pages of conversation. like I get it. they're people who are horrible. you don't have to point that poo poo out. I also think a lot of the strife is caused by each individuals definition of "monster" quote:mon·ster
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Nov 28, 2017 21:15
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Koalas March posted:what is the point, goal or endgame in telling someone that their view of their oppressor is wrong? Because it leads to a cycle of dehumanization that only makes things worse for those being oppressed currently and dehumanization isn't healthy for humans who engage in it. quote:It appears that dehumanization is correlated with support for the priorities of the Trump administration. When someone considers Muslims to be less human, they are more likely to support policies such as a ban on Muslim immigration to the United States. Moreover, those who are more likely to consider certain groups of people less human are more likely to support Republican candidates, such as Trump. quote:People who dehumanize are more likely to blame Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few perpetrators. They are more likely to support policies restricting the immigration of Arabs to the United States. People who dehumanize low-status or marginalized groups score higher on a measure called “social dominance orientation,” meaning that they favor inequality among groups in society, with some groups dominating others.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:16
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"ACTUALLY, nazis are members of the homo sapiens species as well as monsters" checkmate minorities
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Nov 28, 2017 21:17
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Kilroy posted:A monster doesn't have the same level of responsibility for its actions that a person has. Right? How in the name of sweet gently caress does that follow? Like, you've literally been saying that what you call nazis is merely a semantic difference, so how exactly is it supposed to affect the responsibility that nazis bear for being nazis?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:17
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I know people who voted for Trump for a lot of reasons. I know people who voted for him because they were pro-pipeline, or because they thought he was going to bring industry back or that he was more pro-union and anti-business. These are all stupid reasons, and you could say that they’re complicit in Trump’s racism, and they’re almost certainly racist themselves. It’s hard for me to attribute to them the very worst of Nazi beliefs, though.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:18
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Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:18
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Democrazy posted:I know people who voted for Trump for a lot of reasons. I know people who voted for him because they were pro-pipeline, or because they thought he was going to bring industry back or that he was more pro-union and anti-business. These are all stupid reasons, and you could say that they’re complicit in Trump’s racism, and they’re almost certainly racist themselves. It’s hard for me to attribute to them the very worst of Nazi beliefs, though. "well at least they haven't set up concentration camps for jews yet" - a smart man defending neonazis
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Nov 28, 2017 21:18
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Democrazy posted:I know people who voted for Trump for a lot of reasons. I know people who voted for him because they were pro-pipeline, or because they thought he was going to bring industry back or that he was more pro-union and anti-business. These are all stupid reasons, and you could say that they’re complicit in Trump’s racism, and they’re almost certainly racist themselves. It’s hard for me to attribute to them the very worst of Nazi beliefs, though. Racism is the number one predictor of who you voted for. All of that bullshit is excuses.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:18
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Democrazy posted:I know people who voted for Trump for a lot of reasons. I know people who voted for him because they were pro-pipeline, or because they thought he was going to bring industry back or that he was more pro-union and anti-business. These are all stupid reasons, and you could say that they’re complicit in Trump’s racism, and they’re almost certainly racist themselves. It’s hard for me to attribute to them the very worst of Nazi beliefs, though. They knew they were getting Bannon, Sessions et al. gently caress them.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:19
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Trabisnikof posted:Because it leads to a cycle of dehumanization that only makes things worse for those being oppressed currently and dehumanization isn't healthy for humans who engage in it.  minorities are to blame for nazis being monsters by calling them monsters
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Nov 28, 2017 21:19
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NewForumSoftware posted:maybe you're just wrong About the subject? Maybe, and I'm hoping that anyone here would accept that possibility themselves. But about my motivations and viewpoint? No.
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Nov 28, 2017 21:19
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I think your view is correct and I apologize for  nitpicking, but I interpret it slightly differently.Koalas March posted:what is the point, goal or endgame in telling someone that their view of their oppressor is wrong?  The appropriate action is the same either way, so it's not a particularly practical distinction. Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Nov 28, 2017 |
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Nov 28, 2017 21:19
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Democrazy posted:I know people who voted for Trump for a lot of reasons. I know people who voted for him because they were pro-pipeline, or because they thought he was going to bring industry back or that he was more pro-union and anti-business. These are all stupid reasons, and you could say that they’re complicit in Trump’s racism, and they’re almost certainly racist themselves. It’s hard for me to attribute to them the very worst of Nazi beliefs, though. yeah because they’re people you know not because they’re not nazis
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Nov 28, 2017 21:20
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Trabisnikof posted:Because it leads to a cycle of dehumanization that only makes things worse for those being oppressed currently and dehumanization isn't healthy for humans who engage in it. Trabisnikof posted:Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. Jesus gently caress you're a dumbshit. Don't you even think two seconds about what you're saying before you post?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:20
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Rockopolis posted:The point should be is that they are just human beings and sometimes the moral course of action is to why the gently caress would you care about this? who cares about this point? what are you even saying?
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Nov 28, 2017 21:20
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[me, small brain, bad breath]: nazis are bad. punch nazis. [you, galaxy brain, extremely attractive]: actually, as nietzsche once said,
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Nov 28, 2017 21:20
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