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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Yes, but it literally doesn't matter at all because she doesn't tell anyone involved in the conflict. Every time she tries to do anything with the information the movie instantly cuts the legs out from under her, to no real benefit that I can see. She discovers that Lex is crazy, which Lex immediately stomps on by just, y'know, being crazy. She exists in the plot primarily to get monologued at. Why does it matter if she was unable to tell anyone? The point is Lois was proactive enough to uncover the truth about one of the major conflicts int eh movie. The film raises the stakes because she's unable to get the information to the press, which would have cleared Superman's name in the eye of the public. The times she tried to do anything with the information she had, Perry said she needed more proof, and then when she got it, she asked Swanwick to go on record, but as mentioned, the film made it a point to say the information was classified anyways. Even so, she was still uncovering bits and pieces of information (learned the wheelchair was lined with lead) up until her kidnapping. If anything, Lois' thread in the plot shows off the character's investigative prowess and she informs the audience, opening up the story, so I don't see how that's a shortfall on the film's part in characterizing her because she didn't "get the truth out there."
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Dec 1, 2017 02:23
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teagone posted:Lois wanted Swanwick (now Secretary of Defense) to go public with the information she had as well, but he refused since the information was classified. What do you mean these characters aren't likable or that these films aren't very hopeful!
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Dec 1, 2017 02:24
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The idea of intelligent life on other planets is definitely mind blowing and world shaking. Those two things don’t have to imply fear. Saying Superman is a terrifying concept is an interpretation, I just think it’s wrong to call it the correct interpretation. Superman’s kind nature is his defining characteristic. I could see J’onn being scary. Superman looks like a guy I could see at the grocery store. You can tell me the post that calls other cape films “Saturday morning cartoons” and establishes his personal view of what negative consequences superheeoics would bring isn’t condescending, but I don’t believe you. As soon as you start by assuming I didn’t get it, I feel condescended to. I got it. I just didn’t like it. You used the term serious again and that doesn’t feel accurate. The scene with Quill’s Mom in the first GotG is serious. Yet the film isn’t washed in gray.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:27
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BrianWilly posted:That just reminds me how confounding it was that General Swanwick -- the guy who Superman was aiding and allied with in the first film, broken satellites notwithstanding -- ended up helping Luthor to cover up his crimes because he really didn't want to get fired. Shows that Swanwick is no different than actual political figures in real life. Dude always seemed like a dick anyways.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:27
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teagone posted:If anything, Lois' thread in the plot shows off the character's investigative prowess and she informs the audience, opening up the story, so I don't see how that's a shortfall on the film's part in characterizing her because she didn't "get the truth out there." Because in the end, the film chooses to say, “Work hard and persevere, but in the end you’ll still need a strong man to save you.” It undercuts her whole effort. Same with her trying to get the spear.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:28
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McCloud posted:There's a big difference between stating that everyone that didn't like Snyders movies "didn't get it" and saying "I don't think you quite got that right" when they start saying wildly inaccurate stuff, like calling Pa Kent a child murderer, for instance. You say this like somebody didn't just post exactly the former eight posts above me.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:30
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Roth posted:Pretty much every post defending Snyder's DC movies contain some variant of "People just don't like or get what Snyder's themes are" Like, yes, I know, that scene was inspired by Excalibur and and the other scene was inspired by "The Fisher King". So were the Wheel of Time novels; that doesn't make them good or interesting. teagone posted:Why does it matter if she was unable to tell anyone?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:31
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I get Batman's grievance, it's just one that's profoundly stupid and hypocritical. He hates and fears Superman because he's powerful and causes collateral damage. Okay. Except in the movie, Batman causes collateral damage with his own superhero antics. This is all while he sees and acknowledges the influence Lex Luthor is having on events, investigates Lex Luthor, and somehow a character who would have to be a good detective to even get to the point he finds out all of this, either doesn't see or care that Luthor is manipulating him. And what's the defense of this? "You have to put aside the mistaken notion that Batman is a good detective". Okay, then how the hell did he get this far then??? That's not even getting into the notion that a character who is classically associated with having such a hatred of murderers that he himself refuses to kill coming up with a plot to kill and murder another human being. And he can only empathize with Superman when he finds out the fact that their mothers have the same name. What are we left with here? I'm not going to claim the character doesn't attempt to save people or that he's devoid of compassion, but making Batman's primary motivation to Do A Murder when he's a character whose refusal to take a life isn't just a part of the character's core morality, but born from a deeply ingrained part of his personal trauma and isn't just about what is or isn't right, isn't going to sit well with people for a lot of reasons. It is fair to point out that other Batman movies have had him kill people and been better received, but then, what gets ignored in conversations is that those instances are also relatively divisive in their own way, and were pointed out at least to some degree long before BvS existed and was far more blatant about it. In the end, you're left with a version of the character the movie's fans supposedly wants you to believe is both a good and bad detective, one who defies a core element of the character, and is both a subversion of your expectations about Batman but supposedly more true to the character than any other, and it's just? Which is it folks?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:32
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okay, I get that MoS and BvS are divisive, but surely we can all agree that Suicide #SKWAD is dope af.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:37
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Phylodox posted:Same with her trying to get the spear. Quoting myself because if you're going to have your whole movie rife with loving Excalibur references and at the end you have a woman diving into a body of water to retrieve a weapon, how the gently caress do you not reference this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o4viqGUtrw It's loving green already!!!
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Dec 1, 2017 02:37
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SonicRulez posted:The idea of intelligent life on other planets is definitely mind blowing and world shaking. Those two things don’t have to imply fear. Saying Superman is a terrifying concept is an interpretation, I just think it’s wrong to call it the correct interpretation. Superman’s kind nature is his defining characteristic. I could see J’onn being scary. Superman looks like a guy I could see at the grocery store. Go one step further. What happens if it isn't Clark Kent that has these powers, but just some random guy? That's the concept I am talking about. Yeah, Clarks kindness is a defining trait. What if that other guy didn't have that?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:39
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SleepCousinDeath posted:okay, I get that MoS and BvS are divisive, but surely we can all agree that Suicide #SKWAD is dope af. Suicide Squad is one of the most awfully edited and poorly conceived movies I've ever seen. I would cheerfully rewatch BvS or Iron Man 2 before watching Suicide Squad again. Zach Snyder can at least direct some pretty action scenes. Like, true story: when I watched Suicide Squad for the first time, on DVD, and they spent 20 minutes introducing all the characters, and then immediately afterward they spent 30 minutes introducing all the characters again, I stopped play and went into the chapter titles to make sure i wasn't stroking out or watching bonus footage or something. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 02:41
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Phylodox posted:Because in the end, the film chooses to say, “Work hard and persevere, but in the end you’ll still need a strong man to save you.” It undercuts her whole effort. Same with her trying to get the spear. I don't think the film says that at all. It presents that idea on the surface sort of, with a couple action scenes, sure. But yeah, superficial imo. I feel like the film has more to say through the character of Lois, about how the women in a man's life, be it their mother or their wife, girlfriend or whoever, are their rock and foundation, "their world." They're the anchor that keeps them grounded, and they're willing to do anything to keep them safe, even it it means risking their own life.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:43
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teagone posted:I don't think the film says that at all. It presents that idea on the surface sort of, with a couple action scenes, sure. But yeah, superficial imo. I feel like the film has more to say through the character of Lois, about how the women in a man's life, be it their mother or their wife, girlfriend or whoever, are their rock and foundation, "their world." They're the anchor that keeps them grounded, and they're willing to do anything to keep them safe, even it it means risking their own life. Is this supposed to be a positive read?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:46
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Personally I didn’t much care for the scene where Pa Kent physically forced Superman to drown those babies
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Dec 1, 2017 02:46
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Suicide Squad is one of the most awfully edited and poorly conceived movies I've ever seen. I would cheerfully rewatch BvS or Iron Man 2 before watching Suicide Squad again. Zach Snyder can at least direct some pretty action scenes. It's a beautiful mess.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:46
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Roth posted:Is this supposed to be a positive read? Yes? How do you find it negative?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:47
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teagone posted:I don't think the film says that at all. It presents that idea on the surface sort of, with a couple action scenes, sure. But yeah, superficial imo. I feel like the film has more to say through the character of Lois, about how the women in a man's life, be their mother or their wife, girlfriend or whoever, are their rock and foundation, "their world." They're the anchor that keeps them grounded, and they're willing to do anything to keep them safe, even it it means risking their own life. I mean...that's kinda gross. A woman is defined by the strong man that she inspires? I'm not really cool with that. The movie had two really good chances to let Lois do something really important and both times they dropped the ball and, in the end, her biggest contribution is being Superman's reason for caring about Earth. And needing rescuing. Three times. No, thanks.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:47
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Phylodox posted:I mean...that's kinda gross. A woman is defined by the strong man that she inspires? I'm not really cool with that. The movie had two really good chances to let Lois do something really important and both times they dropped the ball and, in the end, her biggest contribution is being Superman's reason for caring about Earth. And needing rescuing. Three times. No, thanks. That's... not what I meant at all. Lois is willing to put her life at risk for Clark's safety.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:49
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teagone posted:Yes? How do you find it negative? That sounds like the sort of thing I'd read on an MRA subreddit about the role of women in the world. Women in no way should be responsible for the adult men in their lives. Maybe that's not what you intended, but it really comes across that way when you say that they're the anchor that keeps the man grounded.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:50
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teagone posted:That's... not what I meant at all. Lois' is willing to put her life at risk for Clark. Okay, and? It adds up to her being a damsel in distress over and over again. Seriously, why did they undercut her chance to be proactive?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:51
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Phylodox posted:I mean...that's kinda gross. A woman is defined by the strong man that she inspires? I'm not really cool with that. The movie had two really good chances to let Lois do something really important and both times they dropped the ball and, in the end, her biggest contribution is being Superman's reason for caring about Earth. And needing rescuing. Three times. No, thanks. Also, it's Lois loving Lane. Superhero comics are notorious for having superhero girlfriends exist solely to be superhero girlfriends, but one of the few girlfriend characters that traditionally has enough personal agency to rise above that pack is Lois Lane, who is actually more notorious for spurning Superman and pursuing her career than being a doting, comforting anchor and helpmeet, and for some reason, in 2015, we're walking that back? The gently caress?
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Dec 1, 2017 02:52
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Roth posted:That sounds like the sort of thing I'd read on an MRA subreddit about the role of women in the world. Women in no way should be responsible for the adult men in their lives. Lmao, oh I see. No, I meant "anchor" more as like a "constant" in life, if that makes sense. Someone who will always be there and whatnot. Phylodox posted:Okay, and? It adds up to her being a damsel in distress over and over again. Seriously, why did they undercut her chance to be proactive? She was proactive enough to recover the spear, knowing full well the area she was in was dangerous af. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 02:57
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teagone posted:She was proactive enough to recover the spear, knowing full well the area she was in was dangerous af. ?!? AND THEN SHE NEEDED RESCUING!!!
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Dec 1, 2017 02:58
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The spear she threw away? Her net contribution to the movie is a zero sum.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:58
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I feel like you guys are being a bit disingenuous.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:03
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McCloud posted:Go one step further. What happens if it isn't Clark Kent that has these powers, but just some random guy? That's the concept I am talking about. Yeah, Clarks kindness is a defining trait. What if that other guy didn't have that? But we’re talking about Superman. Who is Clark Kent. If you want to say the concept of like Starro is terrifying, we’ll have a different conversation.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:14
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SleepCousinDeath posted:I feel like you guys are being a bit disingenuous. Like someone who has one face, but then also another, more sinister face. Some kind of Multi-Face.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:14
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fruit on the bottom posted:Like someone who has one face, but then also another, more sinister face. Some kind of Multi-Face. Like Man E Faces from the Masters of the Universe? I would rather watch Masters of the Universe the movie again than BvS
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Dec 1, 2017 03:19
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teagone posted:Shows that Swanwick is no different than actual political figures in real life. Dude always seemed like a dick anyways. And y'know what...it isn't just overkill in terms of the superhero genre, at a certain point it's all just flat-out overkill, period. No matter what genre or foundation you're working from, at a certain point this sort of thing just becomes gratuitousness for the sake of being gratuitous. It no longer has any grand message to impart when you're just forcing one single unrelentingly grim-gray "reality" of heroism at the expense of anything else, robotically churning out one soul-draining defeat after the other, because that does not reflect real life either. That becomes just as cartoonish as any Marvel film you can name, inorganically compelling a distorted perspective of the world that doesn't really fit. I mean, that CineD quote is technically correct; if all Snyder's films have to say is that being a hero is disappointing or soul-crushing, then it's no wonder that people don't engage with them. What I would add is that this sort of message is incredibly superficial and pseudointellectual in the first place, so people would be right to find it unengaging.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:19
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BrianWilly posted:Neck snap. 
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Dec 1, 2017 03:24
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With Superman I always feel like the obvious answer to someone saying "I must figure out Superman's secret identity!" Would be "He has a secret identity? I thought his real name was Kal-El from the planet Krypton, I saw it on the news. Why would he have a secret identity? He lives at the North Pole"
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Dec 1, 2017 03:27
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Al Borland Corp. posted:With Superman I always feel like the obvious answer to someone saying "I must figure out Superman's secret identity!" Would be "He has a secret identity? I thought his real name was Kal-El from the planet Krypton, I saw it on the news. Why would he have a secret identity? He lives at the North Pole" Even thinking he has a secret identity would require thinking that he has time for one and to follow the news it would seem that being Superman occupies most of his time. That and making the odd leap that the guy who shows his face is hiding who he is.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:36
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Al Borland Corp. posted:With Superman I always feel like the obvious answer to someone saying "I must figure out Superman's secret identity!" Would be "He has a secret identity? I thought his real name was Kal-El from the planet Krypton, I saw it on the news. Why would he have a secret identity? He lives at the North Pole" Chris Sims said this in an article once and I’ve also adopted it as my thought process. I don’t poke holes in the kayfabe though. I don’t need any Superman comic to tell me why the glasses work. They just do.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:45
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Phylodox posted:?!? I don't see how that undercuts her character with the way the film has presented her up to that point imo. 1. Lois was being a badass journalist, interviewing an alleged terrorist in some remote village in Africa. This situation was later revealed to be a setup by Lex to frame Superman, because Lex knew Superman would be aware of Lois' life being at risk. She was unknowingly (at the time) used as bait while doing her job. Lois eventually figured that out, which leads to: 2. Lois was being a badass investigator, uncovering the truth of what was going on with Clark being framed. "You're digging up snakes, Lo" Clark said, worried about her. But she's steadfast and wants to find out the truth. She eventually does, but before she could ever take the information public, Lex kidnaps her because she was too smart and figured out his plan. Lex again uses her to draw out Superman in the crux of his manipulative endeavor. Then, in the third act: 3. Lois was being a badass significant other, protecting the man she loves. She helped prevent Bruce from killing Clark, and was of the mind to discard the kryptonite spear so as to ensure Clark's safety. Though, once Doomsday appears, she recognizes that the spear can be used to kill the beast. Knowing full well how dangerous the situation she was in, she puts herself at risk to help put a stop to Lex's plan. Those are the three instances you're referring to right? I mean sure, yes, there are brief moments of the damsel-in-distress archetype with Lois in those situations, but I don't feel like those moments betray the character in the film. When I think of a damsel of distress, I think of a character who is incompetent, fearful, helpless, and generally weak. Lois is none of those things in BvS.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:45
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teagone posted:This is just another way of saying "not my Superman" so you know. Quoting Megaman's Jockstrap's post from the CineD Justice League movie thread regarding this because it's really good: Why would you ever post this in defense of your position? It's intolerable to read. You could boil it down to "people who don't like what I like are stupid" and get the exact same message across.
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Dec 1, 2017 03:54
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teagone posted:I don't see how that undercuts her character with the way the film has presented her up to that point imo. Like...nothing she does culminates in anything meaningful. Do you not get that? Yeah, she's a badass investigator, great, except that both times she's investigating it just leads to her being bait. The third example has her actively hindering Superman's fight against Doomsday because he has to rescue her. The film viciously undercuts all of her active participation in the movie. You can keep saying that she's cool and proactive and everything, but the movie just keeps forcing her back into the role of a woman, or damsel, who is in need of saving, or in distress. How is that not somehow more insulting than her just getting herself into trouble? In the end, she's not even responsible for condemning herself, it's the movie that forces her into that position.
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Dec 1, 2017 04:04
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Phylodox posted:Like...nothing she does culminates in anything meaningful. This is where I disagree. And I'll leave it at that. If you want to argue more, my PMs are open 
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Dec 1, 2017 04:29
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Looks like Cap's got some kind of vibranium gauntlet things on, neat.
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Dec 1, 2017 05:35
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nerdman42 posted:
 Superman: American Alien is a great comic book.
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Dec 1, 2017 07:13
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