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fatherboxx posted:Disney is a ridiculously big entity and does not act as a monolithic company, there are numerous licensing deals concerning books and merchandise. Duck Tales comics are published by IDW, Fantagraphics do reprints of classic comics, Joe Books do novelizations and graphic novels aimed at bookstores, there is Egmont in Europe... Yes, I know. I meant why aren't books that make sense at Marvel being done at Marvel? Where's my goddamn Willow comics!?
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Dec 1, 2017 09:39
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Archyduke posted:My issues with Karma (and with Tyger Tyger too come to think of it-- and Psylocke actually...) are more about narratives of consent and agency and how Karma in particular just keeps getting her agency overridden or violated over and over again. I don't want to make it sound like it's only Asian women that Claremont has this happen too but it's something that every reader of Claremont has to grapple with and in my case I can never 100% make my peace with it. That's fair. In Claremont's case, I think it's mostly the unfortunate dovetailing of his love of female protagonists with his love of body horror/mind control plots. It comes up a lot regardless of who his current protagonist is, but it does get extra skeevy when it's Storm or Psylocke.
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Dec 1, 2017 09:50
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Alaois posted:You also forgot Hazmat, who's power is that she's... radioactive. I remember in the Runaways crossover, Nico called her out for that...and then Hazmat called her out for her whole 'gothic' look, and they immediately became friends.
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Dec 1, 2017 11:56
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Very sad this wasn't an exact Doom Patrol tribute when I went to check. https://twitter.com/RedNailsII/status/936306004484022272 
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Dec 1, 2017 13:30
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Hey, has Cebulski been insanely, brutally fired yet? Feels like that should happen like, yesterday.
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Dec 1, 2017 13:45
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Dan Didio posted:Hey, has Cebulski been insanely, brutally fired yet? Feels like that should happen like, yesterday. of course not
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Dec 1, 2017 15:15
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I don't feel like that's going to happen. The general vibe from what I've seen is "It's not a big deal". There are upset people but it doesn't feel like nearly as many as other recent shenanigans.
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Dec 1, 2017 15:47
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That's garbage. gently caress Marvel and their entire garbage heirarchy of editorial figures.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:52
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The culture of Marvel needs a major overhaul.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:58
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I don't think there's a single senior figure at this point who doesn't have a huge, or several, ugly marks on their record.
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Dec 1, 2017 16:59
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Dan Didio posted:I don't think there's a single senior figure at this point who doesn't have a huge, or several, ugly marks on their record. It really does seem like it. I wonder how much of this is Permutter's influence.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:02
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I'm not sure what Oda Nobunaga has to do with this.
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Dec 1, 2017 17:06
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Dan Didio posted:I don't think there's a single senior figure at this point who doesn't have a huge, or several, ugly marks on their record. It's much easier to stay safe in your position when your boss and your immediate subordinates are all garbage too
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Dec 1, 2017 18:10
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Rhyno posted:The culture of comics needs a major overhaul.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:22
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Just so I’m clear, you guys want him fired for using a Japanese name to get work like 15 years ago or is there some other thing?
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Dec 2, 2017 22:38
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There's some people suggesting that he stole pitches he got in his job as a talent scout, but that seems to be speculation without anything back it up.
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Dec 2, 2017 22:42
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There was also some guy in this thread who instantly decided that this made him “probably racist” and started calling him that, so I’m just trying to keep myself straight with all this crap flying around.
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Dec 2, 2017 22:45
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I mean, it's a racist act to pretend you're a minority. Just saying.
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Dec 2, 2017 22:47
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That is true, yes. That statement on its own is true. But are you trying to argue that this guy who is married to a Japanese wife, lived for years in Japan and has by what’s been reported made a huge push to engage the industry with Asian markets and demographics is a racist because he used a Japanese name to get a job in Japan?
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Dec 2, 2017 22:57
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Marvel is an American company and so is dark horse last I checked And yes it's still racist
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Dec 2, 2017 23:00
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Mr. Maltose posted:I mean, it's a racist act to pretend you're a minority. Just saying. Is it a sexist act to pretend you're another gender? When you're using a pen-name you're doing it to avoid letting your own identity be known. I've known a black, male writer to use a female white pen-name. I mean, if this person was doing this to get a job that was specifically for an initiative for more Japanese writers, then yes, that's a lovely rear end loving thing to do. You're then taking work from a potential actual writer of Japanese descent or origin using a fake name. But if it's just a pen name for an open position, and yeah it's lovely that you're trying to get around rules that are there for a reason (And I wouldn't be against a docking of pay or other such punishment for breaking the rules, they're there for a reason. Saying sorry cause you got caught ain't poo poo) If he'd used the name Ioras Eidolon it wouldn't have changed anything, he still lied about who he was to get around the rules. Sides, using a Japanese pen-name to write poo poo anime stories doesn't make him a racist. It makes him a 14 year old weeaboo who thinks watching subs is the height of culture Onmi fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 23:00
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I mean. You can do a racist thing and not develop a terrible minority repelling aura. It's pretty much Dolezal writ small and explicitly capitalist.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:02
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site posted:Marvel is an American company and so is dark horse last I checked I didn't ask about "it", and seeing as you were the first one in this thread to throw out the racist tag I'd be interested in hearing your actual response. Do you seriously think this guy who has a Japanese family, lived for years in Japan and allegedly did a lot to push for Marvel engaging more with Asian markets and demos is racist because he used a Japanese name to get a job in Japan? Nilbop fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 23:05
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Onmi posted:Is it a sexist act to pretend you're another gender? When you're using a pen-name you're doing it to avoid letting your own identity be known. I've known a black, male writer to use a female white pen-name. I mean, if this person was doing this to get a job that was specifically for an initiative for more Japanese writers, then yes, that's a lovely rear end loving thing to do. You're then taking work from a potential actual writer of Japanese descent or origin using a fake name. But if it's just a pen name for an open position, and yeah it's lovely that you're trying to get around rules that are there for a reason (And I wouldn't be against a docking of pay or other such punishment for breaking the rules, they're there for a reason. Saying sorry cause you got caught ain't poo poo) Except that it was to write books that traded on assumptions that the writer had actual cultural ties to the material, that were written in such a terrible way that people only assumed they weren't written by a white person because surely no one would actually pretend to be Japanese to write books about Wolverine and Kitty Pride in Japan.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:05
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Nilbop posted:I didn't ask about "it", and seeing as you were the first one in this thread to throw out the racist tag I'd be interested in hearing your actual response. I just gave it to you
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Dec 2, 2017 23:07
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site posted:I just gave it to you Do I seriously need to repost the question a third time before you'll answer it? You're throwing a softball for yourself. Here's my question: quote:Do you seriously think this guy who has a Japanese family, lived for years in Japan and allegedly did a lot to push for Marvel engaging more with Asian markets and demos is racist because he used a Japanese name to get a job in Japan?
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Dec 2, 2017 23:09
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Onmi posted:Is it a sexist act to pretend you're another gender? When you're using a pen-name you're doing it to avoid letting your own identity be known. I've known a black, male writer to use a female white pen-name. I mean, if this person was doing this to get a job that was specifically for an initiative for more Japanese writers, then yes, that's a lovely rear end loving thing to do. You're then taking work from a potential actual writer of Japanese descent or origin using a fake name. But if it's just a pen name for an open position, and yeah it's lovely that you're trying to get around rules that are there for a reason (And I wouldn't be against a docking of pay or other such punishment for breaking the rules, they're there for a reason. Saying sorry cause you got caught ain't poo poo) e: My own smell test would've been different if he's written semi-typical Marvel comics under that pen name, but he did some kind of advanced rigamarole in order to do some kind of honor-laden nonsense featuring Kitty Pryde and Wolverine in the mystical realm of Tokyo, Japan.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:10
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Fine I'll edit slightly for your pedantic needssite posted:Marvel is an American company and so is dark horse last I checked Tokenizing/fetishizing other ethnicities and cultures is still racist E: using a Japanese pen name, getting a job based on the fact that you're supposedly Japanese, pretending you're Japanese in interviews, these are all acts of racism. They may not be "malicious" in that they target Japanese people out of hatred but it is a white male using nefarious methods to portray himself as something he's not to step over a marginalized group for his own gain. That makes it racist. site fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 23:11
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Nilbop posted:Do I seriously need to repost the question a third time before you'll answer it? You're throwing a softball for yourself. Here's my question: Racist in what way? Because "racist" can mean a lot of things, and a dude who goes "Well, I really like Japanese stuff, that basically makes me as good as Japanese and means I should be allowed to take a Japanese writer's job" may not be racist in the terms of making derogatory statements but he certainly is at very least, dismissive about the culture to the point he thinks that because he likes something a lot he can fill the same role as someone actually from that culture.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:13
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Mr. Maltose posted:Except that it was to write books that traded on assumptions that the writer had actual cultural ties to the material, that were written in such a terrible way that people only assumed they weren't written by a white person because surely no one would actually pretend to be Japanese to write books about Wolverine and Kitty Pride in Japan. I mean Nilbops making it quite clear he does have cultural ties, just not genetic ties. And frankly on a personal level of someone who's genetically Italian and Arab but identifies as neither when thinking about myself and nationality, gently caress genetic ties except on a family level it's all bullshit. Nessus posted:It is probably possible to come up with a set of situations where what the dude did wasn't skeevy, but those would not have been the situation that actually prevailed. I hope Larry Hama gets to put him through a table. Fair enough... also I had to look up who Larry Hama was, why do you want to put that strain on a 68-year-old man? I've seen pictures of the guy we're talking about he's a fat gently caress, settle to hitting him in the face or something, don't throw out Larry's back.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:14
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site posted:Fine I'll edit slightly for your pedantic needs Whenever you actually get round to answering the question you let me know about it. quote:Racist in what way? Because "racist" can mean a lot of things, and a dude who goes "Well, I really like Japanese stuff, that basically makes me as good as Japanese and means I should be allowed to take a Japanese writer's job" may not be racist in the terms of making derogatory statements but he certainly is at very least, dismissive about the culture to the point he thinks that because he likes something a lot he can fill the same role as someone actually from that culture. Absolutely, but then we're getting into a massive can of worms about the merits of the product relative to the nationality of the author, and we're also tarring a man as a "racist" for using what amounts to a pen-name in a foreign country. Yes he did it because he thought it'd help him get the job, but does that make him a racist? Does that mean he views the country and culture and people he has clearly taken to his heart as inferior to him? Edit: quote:Tokenizing/fetishizing other ethnicities and cultures is still racist Enough with this back-tracking crap. You were the one who introduced the term "racist" into this thread to describe Cebulski. Now you've got people calling for his "insane and brutal" firing explicitly because of that perceived racism. Do you stand by your original accusation or not? Nilbop fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 23:23
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As I understand it, before this brouhaha, Cebulski was promoted in the hopes that he'd be a good talent scout for artists and writers that would help Marvel's market penetration in East Asia. Previously, when Marvel was looking for Japanese writers and artists to hop on the manga craze, Cebulski pretended to be Japanese so he could get the job, because it's easier to put a white guy under a pseudonym than coaching an actual Japanese writer to write in the style and standard of Big 2 cape comics. He is now the guy who recruits actually Asian writers. They would have very good reason to be pissed at this, which means he's now substantially less effective at the job he was hired to do. Reason enough to fire him right there.Nilbop posted:Absolutely, but then we're getting into a massive can of worms about the merits of the product relative to the nationality of the author, and we're also tarring a man as a "racist" for using what amounts to a pen-name in a foreign country. Yes he did it because he thought it'd help him get the job, but does that make him a racist? Does that mean he views the country and culture and people he has clearly taken to his heart as inferior to him? Lou Dobbs married a Mexican and he's racist as poo poo. Rachel Dolezal loves black culture and identity, and she's racist as poo poo. Why do we give a poo poo about the technicalities of racial superiority when Cebulski has actively demonstrated his willingness to appropriate someone else's race for personal gain, which seems pretty racist to me, but until I've gazed into his heart of hearts, I guess I just can't know whether or not he's a "racist."
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Dec 2, 2017 23:29
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Precambrian posted:As I understand it, before this brouhaha, Cebulski was promoted in the hopes that he'd be a good talent scout for artists and writers that would help Marvel's market penetration in East Asia. Previously, when Marvel was looking for Japanese writers and artists to hop on the manga craze, Cebulski pretended to be Japanese so he could get the job, because it's easier to put a white guy under a pseudonym than coaching an actual Japanese writer to write in the style and standard of Big 2 cape comics. He is now the guy who recruits actually Asian writers. They would have very good reason to be pissed at this, which means he's now substantially less effective at the job he was hired to do. Reason enough to fire him right there. Okay if the bolded part is the actual like... story, not saying it isn't, but I've heard everything from "Was an initiative for more Asian writers" to "Was just a pen-name who pitched stories under that pen-name", then yes it's absolutely way worse than just violating the rules, since he's interfered with the operations of the company, taken work away from authors who could have received it, created false statistic and overall harmed Marvel's and his own reputation.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:33
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Onmi posted:I mean Nilbops making it quite clear he does have cultural ties, just not genetic ties. And frankly on a personal level of someone who's genetically Italian and Arab but identifies as neither when thinking about myself and nationality, gently caress genetic ties except on a family level it's all bullshit. My Jewish wife would not and should not allow me to insist I'm totally Jewish and here's the story of Sabra exploring the ethnic, religious, and national aspects of being an Israeli. Like, his 'cultural ties' are shallow but thanks for making it about genes I guess. Like, his vaunted cultural ties didn't stop his comics from being factually wrong orientalist garbage.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:34
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Mr. Maltose posted:My Jewish wife would not and should not allow me to insist I'm totally Jewish and here's the story of Sabra exploring the ethnic, religious, and national aspects of being an Israeli. Like, his 'cultural ties' are shallow but thanks for making it about genes I guess. At what point has he insisted he's Japanese? See that's the problem with this arguement; you're now equating him with a white woman of north European descent who is literally claiming to be African-American.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:37
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Yeah, part of the issue is that he's not a racial or sexual minority who had to establish a different work identity because his work culture discriminates against that demographic, but the opposite. Sure, lots of people write under pen-names. But in a world where Asian-Americans even today often have to assume whiter-sounding names just to get work in a lot of fields, it's incredibly disrespectful and provably harmful for someone like Cebulski to assume an Asian-sounding identity to get work for projects that were specifically looking for Asian writers. The idea that you can't perform racist acts against a culture that you like or are even somehow affiliated with is pretty ludicrous.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:39
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Nilbop posted:At what point has he insisted he's Japanese?
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Dec 2, 2017 23:39
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Nilbop posted:Enough with this back-tracking crap. You were the one who introduced the term "racist" into this thread to describe Cebulski. Now you've got people calling for his "insane and brutal" firing explicitly because of that perceived racism. Do you stand by your original accusation or not? wut
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Dec 2, 2017 23:40
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Onmi posted:Okay if the bolded part is the actual like... story, not saying it isn't, but I've heard everything from "Was an initiative for more Asian writers" to "Was just a pen-name who pitched stories under that pen-name", then yes it's absolutely way worse than just violating the rules, since he's interfered with the operations of the company, taken work away from authors who could have received it, created false statistic and overall harmed Marvel's and his own reputation. I don't think it was, like, he took an actual spot that had been set aside for a Japanese writer, but 1) Marvel wanted to get in on what was trendy 2) Cebulski pitched an Honorable Japanese Traditions story that was marketable to white kids trying to get in on the manga trend and 3) He wrote it while claiming to be an authentic Japanese writer. That's really not cool and if he's going to be the face of Marvel and a signal for a pivot to Asian markets, this story actively undercuts that attempt. From a business standpoint, he's gotta go (from an incestuous industry that protects its own standpoint, he'll never leave).
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Dec 2, 2017 23:40
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Nilbop posted:At what point has he insisted he's Japanese? You mean the times he published under a Japanese name to publish comic books about Japan and let people think that another, actually Japanese man was him. That would be some times Cebulski was banking on people believing he was Japanese, I would bet. Also I'm not saying he literally was Mickey Rooneying about in yellowface, I was directly discussing Onmi's idea that he had enough "Cultural Ties" to be allowed to pretend to be a racial minority because marrying into a culture instantly gives you sufficient insight like it's an anthropological Quickening.
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Dec 2, 2017 23:41
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