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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I mean, that logic was what got us Justice League how it is. Sounds like it worked. Everyone is like, objectively it's a worse film, but my tummy isn't upset so it's alright!
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Dec 1, 2017 18:16
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Neurolimal posted:The Sears approach to film production, just toss all the IP's on a table and say 'to the victor goes the spoils'. Wasn't this what they did with the Wonder Woman script? I recall stories talking about how there were 2 or 3 scripts from different writers in development and that WB would go with the best one. Or maybe they mashed them together in places, which is why the 3rd act suddenly dropped off a quality cliff.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:23
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feedmyleg posted:Wasn't this what they did with the Wonder Woman script? I recall stories talking about how there were 2 or 3 scripts from different writers in development and that WB would go with the best one. Or maybe they mashed them together in places, which is why the 3rd act suddenly dropped off a quality cliff. I believe Jenkins pretty much threw everything out, beyond Snyder's broad outline, when she took over the movie. X2 and X-Men: First Class were both mashed together from a bunch of different scripts, though.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:25
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feedmyleg posted:Wasn't this what they did with the Wonder Woman script? I recall stories talking about how there were 2 or 3 scripts from different writers in development and that WB would go with the best one. Or maybe they mashed them together in places, which is why the 3rd act suddenly dropped off a quality cliff. Why do you think it fell off a cliff.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:26
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Because a really great movie with a strong thematic throughline and carefully built character relationships suddenly turned into a boring CGI punchfest where the bad guy twisted his mustache and revealed that he was behind the plan all along?
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Dec 1, 2017 18:30
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I guess but that's kind of typical third act stuff.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:33
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dont even fink about it posted:Ultron the character generally works in that movie (and is maybe the only thing not a complete mess), but no one is listening to him and nothing is learned. Yeah, Ultron pretty much carries that movie. He's allowed a little time to make some good points, and James Spader completely delivers. euphronius posted:I guess but that's kind of typical third act stuff. Yeah, I think that's just where Snyder's eye for mashed-up CGI and live-action visuals was most missed. It's hard to do well so they didn't pull it off. Doesn't feel like a scripting issue.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:38
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euphronius posted:I guess but that's kind of typical third act stuff. Exactly. The rest of the movie was elevated above the sort of low standards that lead to "typical third act stuff". A better film would have led up to Wonder Woman being certain that Ares was behind it all only to figure out that Ares wasn't involved (or doesn't exist) and humanity was doing these terrible things all on its own, and that there is nothing she can punch to fix the situation. That instead, she has to inspire humanity to better themselves. But then there would be nothing to punch, and we can't have that.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:39
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About two weeks ago, I convinced my 95 year old grandmother to watch Wonder Woman, because she remembered all the Captain America and Wonder Woman "Buy War Bonds!" propaganda ads from WWII, and she loved the poo poo out of that movie. She obviously had no frame of reference with regards to the storyline or comic book movies as a whole, but she thought it was a good movie. So, for that, i'll always like the WW movie a little bit more. I should get her to watch the first Captain America movie next, because she was a young adult during that war.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:42
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I see your point but disagree . She did kill "ares" and nothing happened. But then fights her own nature and inspired by humanity defeats her darkest impulses. I think the movie is clear the English guy didn't exist at the German camp and was her reflection. She was ares all along. That's how I saw the movie at least. Who knows what the comic books say about it.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:44
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Gonz posted:About two weeks ago, I convinced my 95 year old grandmother to watch Wonder Woman...I should get her to watch the first Captain America movie next, because she was a young adult during that war. That's a great story and I would love to hear her reaction to Captain America, if you don't mind.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:44
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feedmyleg posted:Exactly. The rest of the movie was elevated above the sort of low standards that lead to "typical third act stuff". Well he pretty much revealed he had done exactly that, not forced anyone to do anything and merely given them ideas.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:45
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feedmyleg posted:A better film would have led up to Wonder Woman being certain that Ares was behind it all only to figure out that Ares wasn't involved (or doesn't exist) and humanity was doing these terrible things all on its own, and that there is nothing she can punch to fix the situation. I was kind of hoping for a complete reversal, wherein it turns out Ares actually is responsible, but only because the humans had enslaved him and forced him to create their tools of war. Because mankind is capable of greater extremes of good and evil than the gods ever were.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:45
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Wonder Woman was just as  as the other DC films, actually. I sense there was a hesitance to criticize a female superhero film directed by a woman.It's going to be the same way with Black Panther (and this one is going to make a fortune,  at you naysayers here).
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Dec 1, 2017 18:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's a great story and I would love to hear her reaction to Captain America, if you don't mind. I'll see if she wants to watch it and get back to you.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:46
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The major problem with Wonder Woman's third act is that the preceding material is too good for it. For a rewrite, from memory: Have the soldiers experience delirious camaraderie as the sun comes up /before/ Aries is defeated. Have the plane which Steve Rogers prevents from taking off be more explicitly designed to end the war with a German victory.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:47
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viral spiral posted:Wonder Woman was just as Hahah ok Rush Limbaugh.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:48
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euphronius posted:Hahah ok Rush Limbaugh. Explain to me what is unique about Wonder Woman other than the lead protagonist.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:49
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It was a tight, simple story told well. That alone makes it a wild outlier when it comes to superhero films. Even the ones that are widely considered to be great are all over the place thematically and totally overstuffed with disparate characters and plot lines. The Dark Knight has like 10 totally different things going on and only like 7 of them come together at the end with a decent payoff. Also love that idea of the Ares reversal, being enslaved by mankind. That would've been my poo poo.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:54
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Also Chris Pine is outstanding
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Dec 1, 2017 18:55
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feedmyleg posted:It was a tight, simple story told well. That is what I'm saying: Wonder Woman simply used the same structure, plot, and elements of other superhero films (hence mediocrity). I really don't understand how this is controversial to some.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:57
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Wonder Woman works better as a fish-out-of-water loss-of-innocence thing that you could do with a man or a woman. It's successful at it. Just imagine Wonder Woman was a dude from Vulcan, the movie still largely works. The reason the third-act slambangs seem perfunctory is because they don't tie into those themes. You have Wonder Woman's vacuous innocent ideology vs...the embodiment of the intrinsic hate in men's hearts? How is sword-fighting going to solve that, exactly?
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Dec 1, 2017 18:58
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viral spiral posted:That is what I'm saying: Wonder Woman simply used the same structure, plot, and elements of other superhero films (hence mediocrity). I really don't understand how this is controversial to some. Yeah, dude. But it did it better. It's not the most original film, but it's unique in that it pulls it off without stuffing a bunch of other nonsense in there. Except the ending, which is my only issue with it.
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Dec 1, 2017 18:59
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feedmyleg posted:Exactly. The rest of the movie was elevated above the sort of low standards that lead to "typical third act stuff". That's... that's what happens though. Ares influence is relatively minimal. Her boyfriend is humanity, who is inspired by her to better himself. Her punching Ares doesn't fix the situation, but she doesn't want to become his pawn or allow him to continue trying to influence humanity. Her fighting Ares is about her, she already inspired the people she was with.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:00
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It also looks good which is important for cinema .
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Dec 1, 2017 19:00
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Timby posted:That movie literally has Scarlett Johansson compare herself to being a monster like the Hulk because she's sterile. I'm entirely sure that when Black Widow is calling herself a monster here she's alluding to the fact that she was raised from childhood to be a ruthless KGB spy and assassin and killed lots of people. I mean it's a clumsy scene and I don't particularly like the Black Widow/Hulk pairing, but come on and try and use a little context here. Why would she be calling herself a monster because she was forcibly sterilized by the KGB?
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Dec 1, 2017 19:00
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Rough Lobster posted:I'm entirely sure that when Black Widow is calling herself a monster here she's alluding to the fact that she was raised from childhood to be a ruthless KGB spy and assassin and killed lots of people. I mean it's a clumsy scene and I don't particularly like the Black Widow/Hulk pairing, but come on and try and use a little context here. Why would she be calling herself a monster because she was forcibly sterilized by the KGB? That's what the films trying to do, but it's bad at it.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:04
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S.J. posted:That's... that's what happens though. Ares influence is relatively minimal. Her boyfriend is humanity, who is inspired by her to better himself. Her punching Ares doesn't fix the situation, but she doesn't want to become his pawn or allow him to continue trying to influence humanity. Her fighting Ares is about her, she already inspired the people she was with. Nah. I mean, that stuff was all there, sure, but it didn't work. They tried to have their cake and eat it too, and it muddies the whole thing to the point where they might as well not have tried. You can't say "It was humanity all along!" but then turn around and go "But it was also me all along!" and have his defeat mean anything at all.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:05
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Ares said he barely did anything to help them. It wasn't him all along. It was their own nature. He didn't force them into anything, which Diana was certain was the case.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:06
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Then why was he in the movie at all?
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Dec 1, 2017 19:07
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He's trapped on earth, watching mankind destroy paradise, and desperately trying to end war.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:08
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And bear in mind the black comedy of WW's ending. "Ares is defeated! WW1 is over! Yay! His evil influence over the human heart leading everyone into war is gone!" Twenty years later...
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Dec 1, 2017 19:09
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Cythereal posted:And bear in mind the black comedy of WW's ending. "Ares is defeated! WW1 is over! Yay! His evil influence over the human heart leading everyone into war is gone!" its a dreadfully bleak movie if you have any historical frame of reference at all
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Dec 1, 2017 19:10
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There are like at least three Ares and the English one is in there because her psyche can't grasp yet that she is the real Ares and literally projects this onto English guy as a defense mechanism. Imho
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Dec 1, 2017 19:10
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Cythereal posted:And bear in mind the black comedy of WW's ending. "Ares is defeated! WW1 is over! Yay! His evil influence over the human heart leading everyone into war is gone!" Sixty years later, in Wonder Woman 2, Diana is back fighting a whole 'nother red menace.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:11
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feedmyleg posted:Then why was he in the movie at all? That's also kind of the point, he barely was in the movie. He's far more important in Diana's mind than he actually set himself up to be. Following through on her quest to defeat Ares gives her the perspective and experience she needs to be able to understand and confront humanity's problems and to reestablish empathy with them by not blaming everything they do on outside influence. Her boyfriend's actions show her that they are capable of the kind of selfless love that she's trying to embody, so she is forced to engage with the fact that humanity is more than just slaves to a god or a concept, for good or for evil.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:13
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Cythereal posted:And bear in mind the black comedy of WW's ending. "Ares is defeated! WW1 is over! Yay! His evil influence over the human heart leading everyone into war is gone!" Was Ares the one pushing for the Armistice throughout the movie? I keep getting that and the Treaty of Versailles mixed up. Either way, I thought that having the God of War having a hand in the Treaty that lead to the rise of Nazi Germany was extremely clever but the film doesn't really do much with it. josh04 posted:Sixty years later, in Wonder Woman 2, Diana is back fighting a whole 'nother red menace. This is probably the dumbest setting. I imagine they want to make a lady James Bond Cold War era spy thriller thing, but I think we've had enough red baiting centrist crap from the primary. If you're going to use a politically grey setting, don't film it in black and white.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:16
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euphronius posted:There are like at least three Ares and the English one is in there because her psyche can't grasp yet that she is the real Ares and literally projects this onto English guy as a defense mechanism. Yeah, even the bleak oppositional reading of Wonder Woman makes a lot more sense if we just forsake pretense and say that this person who is categorically obsessed with unilaterally crushing the threat of war itself is actually more of a god of war than anyone.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:20
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Wonder Woman previously believes that humans are infallible and must be corrupted in order to do bad. Ares thinks that because he can corrupt them, they are bad. Ares represents the natural endpoint of the aloof complicity-by-neutrality that Wonder Woman has been fighting against the whole movie. Remember that the Amazons live on an invisible island because the rest of the world is just too lovely to interact with.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:20
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S.J. posted:That's also kind of the point, he barely was in the movie. He's far more important in Diana's mind than he actually set himself up to be. Following through on her quest to defeat Ares gives her the perspective and experience she needs to be able to understand and confront humanity's problems and to reestablish empathy with them by not blaming everything they do on outside influence. Her boyfriend's actions show her that they are capable of the kind of selfless love that she's trying to embody, so she is forced to engage with the fact that humanity is more than just slaves to a god or a concept, for good or for evil. In this case the movie should not have ended with an elaborate ten minute fight sequence against an ultimately unimportant figure.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:20
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