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In Mechwarrior games it's harder to overheat if you are standing in water, and much easier if you're standing near a volcano, and I think that's beautiful.
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Dec 14, 2017 01:06
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Downside, you're too close to the lake then the Meijin's gonna bust out with a Master Grade Exia
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Dec 14, 2017 01:59
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PMush Perfect posted:Downside, you're too close to the lake then the Meijin's gonna bust out with a Master Grade Exia Perfect grade. Meijin ain't going in for half measures.
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Dec 14, 2017 02:01
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Oh those poor bastards
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Dec 14, 2017 02:03
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I haven't watched a lot of Build Fighters, but how do the Gunpla battles organize the various size categories? Is a standard match done in 1/144 scale, with weight categories for larger models? I recall seeing a clip on Youtube where a 1/48 scale Zaku II got shoved into a match against 1/144 scale models. Is that legal in a gunpla battle or was someone tampering?
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Dec 14, 2017 02:21
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Arcsquad12 posted:I haven't watched a lot of Build Fighters, but how do the Gunpla battles organize the various size categories? Is a standard match done in 1/144 scale, with weight categories for larger models? I recall seeing a clip on Youtube where a 1/48 scale Zaku II got shoved into a match against 1/144 scale models. Is that legal in a gunpla battle or was someone tampering? The latter. Battles are entirely between 1/144s. The 1/48 Zaku II was not a normal situation at all.
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Dec 14, 2017 02:23
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Arcsquad12 posted:I haven't watched a lot of Build Fighters, but how do the Gunpla battles organize the various size categories? Is a standard match done in 1/144 scale, with weight categories for larger models? I recall seeing a clip on Youtube where a 1/48 scale Zaku II got shoved into a match against 1/144 scale models. Is that legal in a gunpla battle or was someone tampering? It’s almost exclusively HGs, although SDs are legal and there’s at least one Real Grade (and other exceptionally high-quality machines might be Real Grades as well, given their level of detail, though that’s never confirmed). The Mega Size is a result of tampering, yeah.
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Dec 14, 2017 02:25
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Arcsquad12 posted:Origin Episode 5 should be required viewing for any person who ever tries to justify the actions of Zeon. The episode pulled off Operation British and stuck the landing. I just finished watching Episode 5 and honestly I gotta question your judgement here. The gassing of Island Iffish genuinely feels massively sanitized in Origin compared to descriptions and depictions in other media, its changed from being a full on mobile suit assault to being a single ship operating under the radar, and (extremely heinous, imo) the gas is shown like some sort of gentle sleep-to-death substance as opposed to how its portrayed in, say, 08th Team, as a horrifying nerve agent. On top of this, the actual execution of operation British is quickly glossed over - the following sequence of anti-zeon rioters assaulting the Mass residence is given far more visceral attention and emotional weight, while the colony drop is relegated to voice over against footage. What really pisses me off, and ties into some larger issues I have with the Origin OVAs, is that they include a largely unnecessary scene where Ramba Ral gets to show righteous indignation at the whole affair, just so they can let a fan favorite character escape immediate complicity in an atrocity and let fans not question their love of a war criminal. This is something that it does a lot in some way or another - they can't say "Zeon was good, actually," but what they can do is take all the characters that fans are attached to and either absolve them of Zeon's crimes or bend over backwards to justify their involvement, even if that means butchering other characters (Poor Dozle is basically reduced to a paper thin caricature of himself) or introducing new characters to take on their crimes. Ramba Ral in MSG was interesting because he was an examination and rejection of a common postwar trope, the "good nazi," the person who works for an evil organization but is somehow noble. Ral was ultimately a rejection of the idea because, while he was nice to amuro when they meet and had empathy for his soldiers, he ultimately did not have much care for people beyond those he knew personally and still willingly fought and killed for a regime that killed three billion humans. He existed to show that you could still be a bad person and even evil without being a literal monster, that even if you don't personally commit atrocity you still share in the responsibility. The OVAs walk all of this back, putting all of the actual crimes of Zeon squarely on the shoulders of people like Gihren and Kycilia or the Black Tri-Stars, and dehumanizing the Federation side of things so that you don't feel bad about them being absolutely clowned on or worse. The Ral of MSG may not have agreed with Operation British, but he ultimately was accepting enough of it that he continued to serve its perpetrators to the best of his ability. The Ral of The Origin finds the leadership of Zeon reprehensible, and thus...continues to work for them? For years? After they, multiple times, give him plenty of reason to just defect or desert or in some other fashion, loving leave?
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Dec 14, 2017 22:51
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Ramba Ral in MSG was interesting because he was an examination and rejection of a common postwar trope, the "good nazi," the person who works for an evil organization but is somehow noble. Ral was ultimately a rejection of the idea because, while he was nice to amuro when they meet and had empathy for his soldiers, he ultimately did not have much care for people beyond those he knew personally and still willingly fought and killed for a regime that killed three billion humans. He existed to show that you could still be a bad person and even evil without being a literal monster, that even if you don't personally commit atrocity you still share in the responsibility. This isn't quite right. Ramba Ral was the definitive "I am a soldier for my country." Defining him as bad or uncaring is explicitly untrue. Ramba Ral absolutely did care about other people. He was, however, a soldier first and foremost. He did not believe it was his right or duty to reject the orders he was given even if he believed they were foolish or wrong. It was his defining feature. Ramba Ral knew he was fighting for a terrible people but they were his people, his cause, and his country, and so he fought for them even when they abused and took advantage of him. His death happens when he's denied the reinforcements he requested and chooses to act as a soldier anyway, putting his duty before the lives of those close to him and himself. His dying words are even a regret that his encounter with Sayla made him stop fighting in the middle of a battle and that is what got him. For good or ill he isn't a rejection of the 'good nazi' trope and he shouldn't be. The dehumanizing of every single person who fights for an evil cause is something Gundam is explicitly opposed to. There are other episodes in MSG (like the two Zeon pilots in an episode in the same arc) which follow the same idea. And to be honest the "they bend over backwards" thing makes no sense. The Origin is not kind to individual Zeon. The two who come out most ahead are Ramba Ral (who already was Ramba Ral) and M'qube of all people. The rest of the Zeon soldiers are shown as some breed of malicious, sociopathic, or just plain hosed up, aside from maybe Garma whose entire point is that he was a naive and exploited rich kid even in the original. Hell if anything The Origin is harsher on some character. Zeon Zum Deikun is made a lot less Space Jesus and Char's darker elements are absolutely played up. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 23:11
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I don't think the use of the gas as a sleep agent was meant to sanitise anything. It was more likely to make it more tragic to the people in the colony. We meet this idealistic young couple whose lives are just taken away from them. We get this creeping sense of dread until the end in which the guy just slumps down and dies. I can see where you're coming from, what with how it was portrayed 8th ms team, but I don't think it's was done to whitewash zeon. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 23:21
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ImpAtom posted:For good or ill he isn't a rejection of the 'good nazi' trope and he shouldn't be. The dehumanizing of every single person who fights for an evil cause is something Gundam is explicitly opposed to. There are other episodes in MSG (like the two Zeon pilots in an episode in the same arc) which follow the same idea. That's the thing, I'm not saying to dehumanize ral, I'm saying that you can still humanize someone and understand that they are evil. Being "a soldier first and foremost" is wrong when the army you serve has committed the greatest atrocity in human history and shows no sign of remorse. "Just following orders" is not a defense of anything and never has been. The tragedy of Ramba Ral is not that he was a good person fighting for evil men, but that in the end he was not a good enough person to do the right thing. Saying that "he cared for other people, but did not believe he had the right or duty to reject his orders" only highlights the core failure of his character and the eventual end of his arc, because in the end it absolutely is the right and duty of a truly good soldier to reject their orders of they are evil, and to refuse to be used as a tool for greater atrocity.
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Dec 14, 2017 23:25
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Ramba Ral in MSG was interesting because he was an examination and rejection of a common postwar trope, the "good nazi," the person who works for an evil organization but is somehow noble. Ral was ultimately a rejection of the idea because, while he was nice to amuro when they meet and had empathy for his soldiers, he ultimately did not have much care for people beyond those he knew personally and still willingly fought and killed for a regime that killed three billion humans. He existed to show that you could still be a bad person and even evil without being a literal monster, that even if you don't personally commit atrocity you still share in the responsibility. I'd say that Ral existed to serve the opposite function in 0079 and to be the exact common trope that you describe; "the good Nazi". His part in Operation British is never brought up or addressed in any fashion, and his reason for fighting is never established beyond that he's trying to get revenge for Garma so as to improve the lot of his men. In fact, Operation British itself is never addressed in the show outside of opening prologues. Zeon themselves are quite different in the show to post 0079 depictions really, even depictions by Tomino, since Zeon in the show is implied to be made up of conscripts in at least one episode (the one with the guys that plant the bombs on the Gundam) and it's entirely possible that included Ral. Ral also does show sympathy for people he doesn't know, even discounting Amuro, since he treats Fraw much the same despite obviously realizing both are almost certainly some of the people he's been sent to kill. He's still willing to kill them, but he treats them affably and is willing to show them respect and courtesy outside of direct combat. He holds nothing against them, it's just a job. And not even one he particularly savors, just one he thinks is worth doing for the improvement of his own men's lives. If anything I'd say he existed to show that you could fight for the villains but not be evil. And that's certainly the more common interpretation I've seen around the internet. If 0079 had ever directly discussed his part in Operation British or showed his was complicit with other abhorrent behavior then I might agree with your point but as it stands I don't see any reason to think your assessment of Ral is what the show wanted to convey. Really, if anyone had that intention it was Lalah, since she willingly helped Char, even wanting to help him defeat and presumably destroy the Gundam and it's pilot but was a nice person to Amuro. ImpAtom posted:Zeon Zum Deikun is made a lot less Space Jesus and Char's darker elements are absolutely played up. Zeon Zum Deikun is barely in 0079 or any of the following animations, and that conception seems to be from the novels or just fluff in general rather than anything from animation. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 23:42
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:That's the thing, I'm not saying to dehumanize ral, I'm saying that you can still humanize someone and understand that they are evil. Being "a soldier first and foremost" is wrong when the army you serve has committed the greatest atrocity in human history and shows no sign of remorse. "Just following orders" is not a defense of anything and never has been. The tragedy of Ramba Ral is not that he was a good person fighting for evil men, but that in the end he was not a good enough person to do the right thing. Saying that "he cared for other people, but did not believe he had the right or duty to reject his orders" only highlights the core failure of his character and the eventual end of his arc, because in the end it absolutely is the right and duty of a truly good soldier to reject their orders of they are evil, and to refuse to be used as a tool for greater atrocity. That may be what you personally believe but it isn't what Gundam believes. Gundam is anti-war but it doesn't inherently connect that with the people in war being evil for being people. There's a firm underlying message through a vast majority of Gundam that the true evil in Gundam isn't the soldiers. It's the people directing the soldiers, who themselves are pawns and tools and offers little to nothing in the way of choices. The 'right thing' isn't an option for Ramba Ral. He isn't Kira Yamato and can't steal his super-Gundam and singlehandedly go and end a war. He can choose not to fight which gets himself and those close to him killed (because he's Jimba Ral's son) or he can defect to the Federation which has its own buckets of problems, or he can sunk cost fallacy and fight for his homeland. Tomino has made it really clear in pretty much everything he has worked on that he doesn't consider the soldiers inherently evil but the tools of the politicians and higher ups, and the Origin sticks to this. It isn't about 'just following orders' but about people trapped in lovely situations where every decision is awful and even neutrality or pacifism isn't inherently a moral or justifiable act when it's done out of desire for safety at the cost of allowing atrocities to continue. (Cameron Bloom comes to mind here.) You can certainly hold your own feelings on the message (I certainly don't agree with everything Gundam says myself) but it's a pretty blunt message. In the Gundam novels it goes so far as to have Amuro and other Newtypes literally able to follow the sources of maliciousness and evil that cause the war. (Something also depicted in the TV show with Dozel Zabi's death.) Gundam isn't in favor of the idea that you have good and evil people in war. Just leadership and tools. Despite this, The Origin and Gundam as a whole never argue Zeon is right. It merely argues that it is a horrifyingly lovely situation for everyone to be involved in with no good solutions where people who could be genuinely good people are forced to decide between which terrifyingly awful situation they want to support, including those who wish to remain neutral. (After all the opening of Gundam is literally a neutral colony being dragged into the war because in truth they couldn't avoid it.)
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Dec 14, 2017 23:44
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Monaghan posted:I can see where you're coming from, what with how it was portrayed 8th ms team, but I don't think it's was done to whitewash zeon. Both the Origin and 08th MS team depict the gas attack in order to contrast moments immediately afterwards. In Origin, the gas attack juxtaposes the Zeon soldier's words that it was impersonal with Yuki and Fang Li's intimacy, and then undercuts the personal tragedy again by switching to a dispassionate narration explaining just how devastating Operation British was. It provides the viewer with conflicting representations, as we've seen the personal tragedy, and then we compare it against the deaths of 3-5 Billion people, a number so appalling that we can only be numb to the impact. Billions of Yukis and Fang Lis wiped out in an instant. Trying to measure that in individual lives would drive a person mad, and by juxtaposing the statistics with the individuals, the sheer scale of the atrocity is felt by the viewer. If you don't utterly despise Zeon after something like that, I don't know what to tell you. 08th MS team is a bit more direct with its contrast though. The gas attack that Shiro survived cemented his hatred of Zeon, which is apparent throughout the first half of the series. However, the gas nightmare is followed immediately by his longest conversation in the series with an enemy soldier, which shows how he's beginning to move on from absolute hatred and is learning to understand that, even if their regime is evil, the individuals among Zeon are still human. The execution of events following the gas scene are clunky as hell, but their intention is clear. Also, question: Did Zeon only gas Island Iffish, or did they gas other Side 2 colonies after they smashed through their defenses? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 01:31
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i thought the whole point of ramba ral was to show japanese children how their grandparents could both be the good people they know and love, and yet also have been soldiers participating in imperial japan, which was very much The Bad Guys.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:21
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TV Ral was also a massive war-junkie, which I don’t think has really been brought up here. He wasn’t just fighting out of the nobility of his convictions, but because he genuinely enjoyed being a soldier. He wasn’t actually villainised for it (he’s treated as a guy who lived well and died the death he wanted), but it was the reason he and Amuro could never both walk away alive - risking it all against mighty opponents was what he lived for, and the moment that was no longer an option, he suicided. Origin Ral doesn’t have quite such an obvious joie de vivre, which I think is the biggest difference between the two, though I can see them making his addiction more tragic - he does seem to get into a lot of unnecessary fights, and his love of violence may well be what eventually puts him in the cockpit of his Gouf.
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Dec 15, 2017 11:54
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Ral had the chance to surrender. He could have survived his wounding and been taken prisoner, giving him a chance to reconnect with Sayla. Instead, he kills himself, resulting in Hamon's counterattack that kills her, the entire special forces unit and Ryu. He made the wrong choice, and his failure cost even more lives in the process. The refusal to stand down, either through pride, stubbornness or an adherence to duty, is what drove the casualties of the OYW into absurd extremes, and Ral is no different in that regard. When you place nationality above empathy for the individual, millions die senselessly.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 17:15
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i thought the one year war's absurd bodycount largely came from zeon deciding to gas neutral colonies and drop them on earth i guess the federation's stubborness to not surrender after that + other major early losses contributed to a lot of deaths in a way was the federation supposed to surrender???
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Dec 15, 2017 17:23
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ninjewtsu posted:I thought the one year war's absurd body count largely came from Zeon deciding to gas neutral colonies and drop them on earth. The Federation's warfare is akin to the Pacific War's marine landings, and then following their rebound at Odessa, it becomes more like Russia's invasion of Manchuria. Reciprocated violence as payback for previous atrocities. You could argue that Zeon lost their right to surrender after that, but that reflects poorly on the Federation. Moral superiority is a virtue the Federation will throw aside in favour of swift victory, but it doesn't have to be that way. Zeon gave no quarter and expected none; Ral was given a way out and chose not to take it. It shows that the Federation (here White Base) is capable of stepping back from endless violence, only for their mercy to be thrown in their faces. They, at least, see a point where further fighting serves no purpose. They were willing to capture Ral rather than kill him. I'm not advocating for the Federation to go down without a fight, I'm saying that they and Zeon both need to take a step back and consider the moral cost of the conflict, rather than flinging them out the window because one side did a bad so they deserve to have a bad done back to them. The Federation didn't just win the war, they utterly destroyed Zeon's military and imposed viciously harsh sanctions against all spacenoids in the following years, doubling down on the already oppressive economic hardships preceding the war. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 17:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:The Federation's warfare is akin to the Pacific War's marine landings, and then following their rebound at Odessa, it becomes more like Russia's invasion of Manchuria. Reciprocated violence as payback for previous atrocities. You could argue that Zeon lost their right to surrender after that, but that reflects poorly on the Federation. Moral superiority is a virtue the Federation will throw aside in favour of swift victory, but it doesn't have to be that way. Zeon gave no quarter and expected none; Ral was given a way out and chose not to take it. It shows that the Federation (here White Base) is capable of stepping back from endless violence, only for their mercy to be thrown in their faces. They, at least, see a point where further fighting serves no purpose. They were willing to capture Ral rather than kill him. Sounds like someone needs to read the Zeon Is Exhausted speech! Revil was well aware of the moral cost of the conflict. Specifically, he wanted the Federation to continue fighting because he had seen what Zeon was capable of and dreaded a future controlled by the likes of Gihren Zabi, a man who casually refers to the death of billions as a good start on population control while threatening to drop another colony in the same breath. Despite the fact that Zeon is guilty of worse atrocities than anyone else in the entire history of the human race combined, the Federation was open to negotiating peace with dignity up to almost the very end of the war. It was right before A Baoa Qu, literally the last battle of the entire main conflict, when Revil and Degwin were murdered during peace talks by Gihren.
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Dec 15, 2017 19:21
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Kanos posted:Sounds like someone needs to read the Zeon Is Exhausted speech! Revil was well aware of the moral cost of the conflict. Specifically, he wanted the Federation to continue fighting because he had seen what Zeon was capable of and dreaded a future controlled by the likes of Gihren Zabi, a man who casually refers to the death of billions as a good start on population control while threatening to drop another colony in the same breath. Revil is one man, an individual who recognizes that peace is a possibility without compromising one's morals. He is not representative of the Federation as a whole. For every White Base and Revil willing to show mercy, there is a Jamitov Hymen, Bask Om or Commander Anderson who will flaunt ceasefires using past infractions as justification for recanting their promises. The Federation went into the war with a massive arrogance that was shattered following dozens of catastrophic defeats, but rather than reexamining their failings or undergoing an epiphany, they doubled down, tore Zeon apart and did nothing to repair the fractured relations between earth and space. Life under Zeon is the worst outcome, clearly, but the Federation's imposed status quo in the following years is not justifiable by saying "things could be worse!" Not enough people looked at the war, saw what it was doing to everyone, and stood up to ask that they just stop fighting. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 19:31
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Arcsquad12 posted:Revil is one man, an individual who recognizes that peace is a possibility without compromising one's morals. He is not representative of the Federation as a whole. For every White Base and Revil willing to show mercy, there is a Jamitov Hymen, Bask Om or Commander Anderson who will flaunt ceasefires using past infractions as justification for recanting their promises. The Federation went into the war with a massive arrogance that was shattered following dozens of catastrophic defeats, but rather than reexamining their failings or undergoing an epiphany, they doubled down, tore Zeon apart and did nothing to repair the fractured relations between earth and space. It's disingenuous to refer to Revil as merely one man who is not representative of the Federation. It was the words of that one man who kept the Federation in the war. Revil is one man, but he was one man who was in a position of supreme power and influence, beloved of his people, who could have actually achieved something like the compromise you talk about - until Zeon murdered him in cold blood. To use a real life analogy, Abraham Lincoln's dream of reconstruction and reintegration of the American South died when John Wilkes Booth shot him in the head and we got a mess instead because the primary driving force behind reconstruction was gone. Zeon largely created that brutalized relationship between earth and space. We don't have any particular examples of how living under the Federation was oppressive or uncomfortable for colonists prior to the One Year War besides some brief examples in the Origin of Federation officers being rude and impolite. The majority of space colonies either declared neutrality or remained loyal to the Federation when the war broke out, suggesting that the Federation's "oppression" of the colonies was largely manufactured propaganda by the Zabis(and the Zabis showed truly touching spacenoid solidarity when they proceeded to slaughter their fellow colonists en masse and destroy their homes and use them as weapons for daring to not bend the knee).
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Dec 15, 2017 19:59
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Kanos posted:
Much as I hate to bring it up because it still annoys the gently caress out of me, but the rewritten Federation constitution from Unicorn was specifically manufactured to disenfranchise spacenoids and limit their role in Earth Sphere politics. So there was definitely some depredations going on, especially on colonies like Side 3 when they didn't want to play poker against the Feds' stacked deck. Once again, I'm not advocating the "both sides are equally bad!" argument, but I am saying that the Federation did not handle the war or its aftermath well in the slightest. It's way too easy to fall into a cycle of vengeance, and the Federation on the whole did so.
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Dec 15, 2017 20:24
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Arcsquad12 posted:Much as I hate to bring it up because it still annoys the gently caress out of me, but the rewritten Federation constitution from Unicorn was specifically manufactured to disenfranchise spacenoids and limit their role in Earth Sphere politics. So there was definitely some depredations going on, especially on colonies like Side 3 when they didn't want to play poker against the Feds' stacked deck. The only wording on the Laplace charter that was excised according to Unicorn was: quote:2. In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government. This is almost meaningless in practice. What constitutes a "space-adapted human race"? The overwhelming majority of spacenoids in the run-up to the OYW were first or second generation emigrants, at best, which is absolutely, positively not enough time for a "new space-adapted human race" to emerge. Space colonization effectively began in UC 0000 and the OYW occurs in 0079. Do I become a space-adapted humanoid if I pick up my family and move to Side 7? The other issue is that the very charter you reference specifically states that the Federation is responsible for administering and governing the space colonies. Side 3 in particular declared independence in violation of that charter because of Zeon Zum Deikun's "spacenoids are the evolution of humanity" pseudo-racist philosophy, which is a huge reason why there are tensions between Side 3 and the Federation to begin with prior to the Zabi coup and the establishment of the Principality. The Federation's post war conduct is, quite honestly, amazingly restrained in the context of the scale of the conflict. Given the sheer scale of the horror and death caused by the One Year War and the one-sided nature of the atrocities perpetrated in the conflict, it's quite surprising that Side 3 was allowed to continue to even exist at all instead of being dismantled and its people shuttled elsewhere. To again pull out a real life example, look at what events like 9/11 prompted re: global politics and imagine if something occurred that instead of killing several thousand innocent people it instead killed billions, with a B.
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Dec 15, 2017 21:11
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Keep in mind that the Titans didn't even show up until Zeon successfully pulled off another colony drop. I'm with Kanos, while the Titans were bad, the federation was incredibly restrained considering the scale of the war.
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Dec 15, 2017 21:41
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Kanos posted:The only wording on the Laplace charter that was excised according to Unicorn was: The rewritten charter is ultimately meaningless, but the intent by the terrorist attack was to change that concession as a means of marginalizing space borne populations. It might be stupid in execution, because that charter line is dumb as hell anyways, but that is what the intent was in-universe. It was based on fear of Earth becoming politically irrelevant, so the attack, the rewritten constitution, and the century long blackmail campaign by the Vist and Marcenas families to hold political power. So Side 3 violates the charter by promoting independence, but when the political spectrum is so skewed in the Federation's favour, it is at the very least understandable. I doubt Deikun and the Contolists came up with their philosophy out of the blue, there needed to be some motivation for them to pull away from the Federation, and marginalized political power is a valid reason. The Federation is still primarily Earth focused, as we see in Origin 4 and 5. Despite Hatte declaring for the Feddies, the Federation fleet was nowhere to be found when Zeon attacked. Despite the run up to the war being very fast and Zeon only giving a three second warning before they opened fire, the ESF still had time to maneuver forces to defend the sides against Zeon attacks. Instead, they consolidated their fleets, let Hatte and Moore get annihilated, and the moon occupied. Only after this do they decide to move into position near Loum. They clearly prioritize Earth above the colonies.
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Dec 15, 2017 21:46
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Arcsquad12 posted:The rewritten charter is ultimately meaningless, but the intent by the terrorist attack was to change that concession as a means of marginalizing space borne populations. It might be stupid in execution, because that charter line is dumb as hell anyways, but that is what the intent was in-universe. It was based on fear of Earth becoming politically irrelevant, so the attack, the rewritten constitution, and the century long blackmail campaign by the Vist and Marcenas families to hold political power. Side 3 declared independence in 0058 and managed to maintain functional autonomy for two decades despite the "oppressive" Federation; the situation only escalated into armed conflict when the Zabi family coup occurred, the Principality was established, and they launched an aggressive war of conquest. Side 6 declared independence in 0077 and maintained a neutral posture in the war which the Federation respected and honored, even maintaining positive diplomatic ties. If colonies are allowed to declare independence and operate autonomously and still maintain diplomatic ties with the Federation, this suggests a situation that is the exact opposite of an oppressive regime. If the Federation was actively oppressive and awful to colonists to the point that it justified armed revolution, why did literally every single Side except Side 3 and Side 6 align with the Federation? . Hatte and Moore remained loyal to the Federation against Zeon despite that directly resulting in their annihilation by Zeon's aggression when they could have bent the knee to Zeon or declared independence at any point. As for the ESF's response, it takes a fair amount of prep work to get a military force on the move from a stand down position and, as you said, Zeon gave roughly three seconds of warning. Splintering your forces in a frantic and unplanned rushed defensive operation is a great way to lose those forces and singularly fail to protect what you were trying to protect in the bargain. Once they had massed their space fleet they felt confident enough to move in force to protect the colonies at Loum, and even that level of preparation was shown to be woefully short; what, exactly, would the Federation rushing piecemeal forces to try to defend Hatte and Moore have accomplished when the massed power of their entire space fleet failed at Loum? Kanos fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 22:13
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It would at least be a start. The destruction of Hatte and Moore led to riots at Loum, and a division between zeon and fed sympathizers. The federation isn't exactly helping their case for defending space colonies when two whole sides were blown up in a week's time. It might not have been feasible to move ships there, considering how anemic their defense of granada was, but it would symbolically shown that the feds gave a drat. I'm not going to play armchair general here and say that they could have beaten Zeon if they did divide their fleets to defend the sides, but the fallout from Hatte definitely did impact their public perception. The Hatte defenders are holding out for the federation to come, and they didn't. And hundreds of millions died needlessly because of it.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:27
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Monaghan posted:Keep in mind that the Titans didn't even show up until Zeon successfully pulled off another colony drop. The Titans were monsters who also gassed colonies. But throughout Zeta Gundam I kind of get the impression that they're a private army, almost sort of like a PMC like Blackwater. They actually turned on the Earth Federation towards the end of the series.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:30
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So what was the status of all the sides at the end of the OYW? I know Side 3 was Zeon and they were relatively untouched at the end of it all I think. At lease Side 4 and 2 got blown apart right?
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Dec 15, 2017 22:42
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Gammatron 64 posted:The Titans were monsters who also gassed colonies. But throughout Zeta Gundam I kind of get the impression that they're a private army, almost sort of like a PMC like Blackwater. They actually turned on the Earth Federation towards the end of the series. An easy real life analogy from an organizational perspective is that the Titans are sort of the Waffen-SS to the normal army's Wehrmacht. They technically exist as part of the Federation armed forces portfolio, but they hold an enormous amount of independent power, authority, and political clout that enables them to operate as a separate entity from the "common" army and their elite status means they have an easier time securing all the fancy new toys and such, and their loyalty is to their own organization and its leaders rather than the greater government they are theoretically representing. ManSedan posted:So what was the status of all the sides at the end of the OYW? I know Side 3 was Zeon and they were relatively untouched at the end of it all I think. At lease Side 4 and 2 got blown apart right? Side 1, Zahn, made it out mostly intact. Side 2, Hatte, was hit extremely hard(Island Iffish was part of Side 2) but wasn't destroyed and was eventually rebuilt; Zanscare was established there in V Gundam. Side 3, Zeon itself, was left almost entirely intact. Side 4, Moore, was massively damaged and only partially salvageable; Industrial 7 from Unicorn is part of Side 4. Side 5, Loum, was almost completely annihilated and became a shoal zone due to all of the destroyed colony debris. Side 6, Riah, declared neutrality and was left virtually unscathed except for some hiccups(0080 took place in Side 6). Side 7, Noa, was a new side and had basically no colonies yet; Amuro's home, the original Noa, was damaged but salvageable and was repaired and named Green Noa. The second Side 7 colony became Gryps II. Kanos fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 22:49
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ManSedan posted:So what was the status of all the sides at the end of the OYW? I know Side 3 was Zeon and they were relatively untouched at the end of it all I think. At lease Side 4 and 2 got blown apart right? Sides 2 4 and 5 were destroyed, one side 6 colony was attacked and nearly nuked, side 7 was attacked but recovered after white base left. Not sure about side 1. In 0083 the sides got reorganized to replace the lost colonies and redistribute the space borne population. The shoal zone around earth was caused by the chunk of Iffish that broke off in orbit right? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 23:01
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The Titans are kind of fascinating because they’re a giant honeypot that was built to fail. So most of them are just psychotic rear end in a top hat racists, but right at the top is a guy who wanted the exact same thing as his AEUG rivals, but disagreed over the methodology - and then he got killed by one of the Newtypes he sought to exalt, letting a Newtype-supremacist spacenoid nation take over the solar system. Forget Char - a prequel series detailing Jamitov’s early life would be fascinating.
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Dec 16, 2017 00:01
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Arcsquad12 posted:The Federation's warfare is akin to the Pacific War's marine landings, and then following their rebound at Odessa, it becomes more like Russia's invasion of Manchuria. Reciprocated violence as payback for previous atrocities. You could argue that Zeon lost their right to surrender after that, but that reflects poorly on the Federation. Are you discussing events from The Origin or another manga side story here or something? Because I don't recall any mention or showing of surrender or treatment of surrendering individuals on either side of the war in 0079, or really any of the animations (though it's been years since I've seen some, so I could easily have forgotten events from one of them). Arcsquad12 posted:The Federation didn't just win the war, they utterly destroyed Zeon's military and imposed viciously harsh sanctions against all spacenoids in the following years, doubling down on the already oppressive economic hardships preceding the war. My impression was that Zeon barely had a military by war's end, and by A Boa A Qu they're sending barely trained youths out in top of the line machines just to have more bodies on the line because they have few trained men left. The Federation couldn't destroy what was barely there in the first place. I also don't recall anything about them doubling down on oppressive economic hardships between 0079 and Zeta; only that the Titans came in to existence, and even they didn't get truly out of hand until about 5 years after 0079 with the gassing of Colony 30 in Side 1. Which yes, is horrible and deserves mention, but isn't an economic sanction of any kind. Arcsquad12 posted:The Federation went into the war with a massive arrogance that was shattered following dozens of catastrophic defeats, but rather than reexamining their failings or undergoing an epiphany, they doubled down, tore Zeon apart and did nothing to repair the fractured relations between earth and space. The Federation didn't go in to the war with anything, since that implies they knew war was inevitable and/or started the war. Which they didn't. They reacted to Zeon's declaring war and attacking them, and initially suffered multiple loses and huge casualties during the opening days of the war but I don't really see how that can be arrogance on their part. Even in the case of Zeon attacking other sides that you're talking about, they would need to have anticipated that those Sides would be the next target and had plans in place to defend them from attack, which there's no reason to suspect is the case. It wasn't arrogance as far as I can see, so much as shock at being caught completely unaware. Even following the One Year War the Federation seemed to stumble from one crisis to another, getting weaker and weaker in the process. Only a few years after the One Year War they had to contend with the Gryps War, which was immediately followed by the Neo Zeon War, which was followed a few years later by Char bombarding the Earth. At which point they're already so desperate for funds they're selling someone who's just dropped an asteroid on them another asteroid just so they can continue paying welfare. Which probably includes colony construction, maintenance and sustainability costs. The guys running the show were certainly entitled shits, especially in ZZ, but the Federation never seems to have properly recovered from the economic costs of the One Year War and their power, influence and purse seemed to shrink with every show. By Victory they're struggling to hold and defend even just the Earth and appear to have given up entirely on any colonies. Arcsquad12 posted:Sides 2 4 and 5 were destroyed, one side 6 colony was attacked and nearly nuked, side 7 was attacked but recovered after white base left. Not sure about side 1. Two prologues in 0079 state that Sides 1, 2, 4 and 5 were outright destroyed, while Side 6 only had a few of it's colonies remaining. Some of that information seems to have been changed over the years through subsequent animations like 0080 though. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 00:16
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I'm pretty sure surrender was on the table until Gihren decided to zap his own father along with General Revill, a chunk of the Federation fleet, and a chunk of his own fleet with the Solar Ray.
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Dec 16, 2017 00:23
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Man, this compilation of footage of Ra Cailum-class ships in chronological order was weirdly affecting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiBNmN4Kvso
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Dec 16, 2017 01:32
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Darkman Fanpage posted:I'm pretty sure surrender was on the table until Gihren decided to zap his own father along with General Revill, a chunk of the Federation fleet, and a chunk of his own fleet with the Solar Ray. I'm not sure that was surrender so much as negotiation toward truce and ending the war. Regardless, while Revil would probably have partaken in whichever, he didn't even seem aware of Degwin's intentions and it seemed more like a spontaneous action on Degwin's part. None of the rest of the Zeon command knew what he was doing, including Kycilia and even Revil's own fleet had no idea why The Great Degwin was approaching their fleet.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:52
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The best Gundam series actually came out on Playstation in 1997 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiTosK80Wfk "Watch out for Zaks!"
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Dec 21, 2017 02:40
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tsob posted:I'm not sure that was surrender so much as negotiation toward truce and ending the war. Regardless, while Revil would probably have partaken in whichever, he didn't even seem aware of Degwin's intentions and it seemed more like a spontaneous action on Degwin's part. None of the rest of the Zeon command knew what he was doing, including Kycilia and even Revil's own fleet had no idea why The Great Degwin was approaching their fleet. Even a truce at that point in the war would have been questionable considering what the Federation had endured and the fact momentum was with them by that point in the war, on the eve of the Battle of A Baoa Qu. Generally a truce is broached when a stalemate has been reached, which was not the case. If Degwin was going for anything it would be a surrender with conditions, such as allowing his family to retain control. Hell maybe he didn't even care about that and just wanted the war ended. I dunno, just my perspective.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:19
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| # ? May 24, 2024 23:34 |
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Taintrunner posted:The best Gundam series actually came out on Playstation in 1997 Who's this John guy I'm hearing so much about?
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Dec 21, 2017 06:54
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