grieving for Gandalf posted:

I'd have thought you people would love this movie way more considering Luke just all out says "the Jedi are garbage and everything is their fault" like you've been bouncing around for years now

Nessus posted:

But isn't this also bad, because it acknowledges the prequels were films that existed?

Waffles Inc. posted:

TFA, R1 and TLJ are incredibly popular amongst people who don't like the prequels because Marvel is giving 38 year olds the Star Wars movies they wanted when they were 12 and reading Wolverine and Lobo comics and equating cynicism with depth

cams posted:

lol

Waffles Inc. posted:

s.i.r.e. posted:

The Emperor doesn't need any backstory though because it's not important, ANH builds this universe of "The Empire are the Space Nazis and control everything." You don't need to give a poo poo about how they came to power because we don't know anything before then (until he prequels came into being and ruined that). You just accept it. The problem with the new trilogy is that ROTJ establishes that the Empire is destroyed and done with, yet this crippled Dark Jedi re-establishes the Empire somehow and makes it even larger and more powerful than before? That's a whole lot of bullshit the audience has to just accept. It doesn't work at all.

This also points the problem with Rogue One, because no one gives a poo poo about how anyone got the plans to the Death Star.

cams posted:

"all the people who don't like the space movies i like are dumb and liked dumb things as children that i was too smart to like. also, the cute girl didn't realize how smart and nice i was and she was an idiot for getting with the dumb guy who liked wolverine."

the way people talk about their opinions on media on the internet will never stop being hilarious. you've taken your star wars opinion and turned it into a story you tell yourself about how you're smart.

Dexo posted:

but TLJ isn't really cynical.

The only cynical characters are the bad guys, and Luke, who overcomes that cynicism, and becomes the symbol of the group that represents hope.

Waffles Inc. posted:

TFA, R1 and TLJ are incredibly popular amongst people who don't like the prequels because Marvel is giving 38 year olds the Star Wars movies they wanted when they were 12 and reading Wolverine and Lobo comics and equating cynicism with depth

Waffles Inc. posted:

This is...dumb

zandert33 posted:

One of the big themes of the movie is letting the past die. Snoke's character solely exists as a stereotype of the most sith-est sith that ever sithed just to be completely destroyed. The movie is trying to shove in our face the fact that ideas of the Jedi and the Sith are done now, they gave us a cartoon Sith to clearly show us that it's over.

cams posted:

"all the people who don't like the space movies i like are dumb and liked dumb things as children that i was too smart to like. also, the cute girl didn't realize how smart and nice i was and she was an idiot for getting with the dumb guy who liked wolverine."

the way people talk about their opinions on media on the internet will never stop being hilarious. you've taken your star wars opinion and turned it into a story you tell yourself about how you're smart.

Waffles Inc. posted:

I guess i mean more in general, in a meta-narrative and marketing sense. In order to make sure TFA was beloved, Disney made a rehash of ANH and purposefully included a lot of behind the scenes marketing to pander to the things that became meme-y "problems" with the prequels (NO POLITICS! PRACTICAL EFFECTS! FUCKABLE CHARACTERS!). But in doing so--in resetting the movie status quo--they undermined all of the struggles and victories of the original films.

Luke is a disgraced teen molester/murderer now, Han and Leia are disgraced parents who couldn't make their marriage work, and the Rebellion not only failed, but it turned to bitter infighting that allowed a third Death Star.

Even now, just one movie after TFA, there's rewriting in order to appeal to the memes about TFA. Snoke being important and any mystery surrounding Rey get dumpstered for...why?

It's all incredibly bitter and cycnical imo

LionArcher posted:

The thing is though, I’m not saying I don’t like the film. I really do. When I talk about snoke, I’m bugged because without the backstory, at all, without context, it makes the death less interesting. In a movie that is all about interesting ideas over strong logical plot ( the military issues, and so on already brought up) it detracts from an interesting choice. Having the new big bad being killed by our new emo Vader, as a choice, could be cool. I’m down for that subversion. But The context of him isn’t there. Does he not have a new title? Is he just the first Jedi? A former sith? We get Great poo poo on Lukes thoughts on the force. We get Emo Vader at the end wanting to burn it all down. But nothing from Snoke? One line about light and dark balance?

Making him more interesting before you kill him off like a chump would make it a stronger beat, and make emo Vader, I don’t know, actually scary? Where did he come from? We get glimmers of just how strong Snoke is, but if there was just a slight bit more, I wouldn’t be hung up on it. And I’m talking about like maybe a minute of film? Five tops? It would make his death far more interesting. You could still get that he dies like a dumbass, but as it is now, it’s just yet another joke. In a movie, that has plenty of them.

cams posted:

the reason so many people are reacting negatively to this is that they hold these types of stories dear. the original trilogy was entirely a story of a chosen one and his friends managing to actually accomplish their goal. new trilogy says "that's great, but the story never ends and you're just a small part of it."

cams posted:

tfa pmuch explicitly set up the audience to think snoke was important and to think rey's origins are important because the entire theme of the movie is that they aren't important at all in the grand scheme of things. the movie is about how people are people who make mistakes and should not be seen as heroes or legends or creatures of myth.

the reason so many people are reacting negatively to this is that they hold these types of stories dear. the original trilogy was entirely a story of a chosen one and his friends managing to actually accomplish their goal. new trilogy says "that's great, but the story never ends and you're just a small part of it."

tlj was imo only a b or b- film itself, mostly due to the bloatedness of the branching plots, but the reactions people are having to it are amazing

cams posted:

after i saw tfa i assumed that snoke would not be of any real consequence to the plot, and as soon as we actually see him in his physical form in this one i figured he was dead. like, i get the "desire" to see his backstory explored and established more, but that's not the story they were telling. after rotj there was a power vacuum and resources and someone was going to step in. it is a political reality. it was snoke because they were already following a powerful sith guy so following this one will come naturally.

also the thing i am most struck by reading this thread is that there are people who took something from the star wars franchise as a whole other than "the battle between 'good' and 'evil' is unending and eternal and the physical battles we fight are just proxies for it."

Waffles Inc. posted:

So again we're back to "it's good mostly because it's triggering people"

You even say yourself "the reactions people are having to it are amazing". Is that the defining characteristic of a star war movie now in 2017?

It's kinda sad, OP

emanresu tnuocca posted:

So why retell ANH just to say "we're not doing that anymore"? who cares? start with something new instead of coming up with a plot contrivance that resets the plot and undoes the original movies.

cams posted:

...it's good because i thought it was good and i enjoyed it. my enjoyment of weirdos on the internet is an entirely separate matter.

i kinda think you're a really dumb guy tbh

emanresu tnuocca posted:

So why retell ANH just to say "we're not doing that anymore"? who cares? start with something new instead of coming up with a plot contrivance that resets the plot and undoes the original movies.

Waffles Inc. posted:

It's kinda sad, OP

cams posted:

i kinda think you're a really dumb guy tbh

Dexo posted:

It's not even really about how people shouldn't necessarily be seen as legends or heroes. It's about how legends and heros are sometimes necessary for people to have hope, or needed for people to act, but in those stories of legend the truth of the humanity, or flaws in a person is often obfuscated.

Like no one cares or really needs to know that Luke's momentary failure was the reason that Ben because Kylo. They just know that he is the one who decided to sacrifice his life standing up to the First Order on the salt planet, so the resistance could escape and continue on.

Waffles Inc. posted:

So again we're back to "it's good mostly because it's triggering people"

You even say yourself "the reactions people are having to it are amazing". Is that the defining characteristic of a star war movie now in 2017?

It's kinda sad, OP

CODChimera posted:

Do you honestly expect anything else from an SA thread?

Waffles Inc. posted:

oh

oh no

Attorney at Funk posted:

The Last Jedi is the entire Star Wars universe trying to talk itself into destroying liberalism and then concluding, "No, the problem is that Hillary was too old. Next time we'll nominate Lena Dunham and everything will work out."

cams posted:

so far all i know about you is that you didn't like this movie (and i guess the other new ones) and you think this is because you're smart and all the dumb people read wolverine and lobo comics. when i pointed this out you just got defensive and started posting default "i am the puppetmaster" stuff. this leads me to believe you engage in internet opinion fights to maintain a personal sense of superiority to people who like the space movies you don't like.

people who moralize their media opinions are defective and should be given assistance

Lumpy the Cook posted:

I almost pity all these feeble-minded plebeians crying for mummy’s milk because they were struck down and dumbfounded today by Rian Johnston’s cinematic genius... almost.

Waffles Inc. posted:

you can PM me if you want to like actually no poo poo insult me this is a bit weird

Attorney at Funk posted:

The Last Jedi is the entire Star Wars universe trying to talk itself into destroying liberalism and then concluding, "No, the problem is that Hillary was too old. Next time we'll nominate Lena Dunham and everything will work out."

General Dog posted:

I had basically this exact thought, that the Jedi=The Democratic Party

Despera posted:

This

"How did the empire of roj become the mega powerful one of the tfa?" This random force god! Who is he? Just some random guy!

zandert33 posted:

One of the big themes of the movie is letting the past die. Snoke's character solely exists as a stereotype of the most sith-est sith that ever sithed just to be completely destroyed. The movie is trying to shove in our face the fact that ideas of the Jedi and the Sith are done now, they gave us a cartoon Sith to clearly show us that it's over.

Zoran posted:

That’s the main thrust of the prequels, yes, that the Jedi are all self-satisfied, wealthy liberals with little interest in the suffering of regular people.

Tree Dude posted:

To all the kids watching Star Wars Rey being a nobody (and the kid in the last shot) communicates that anybody can be a cool Force using Jedi person. You don't need special blood or anything!