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RareAcumen posted:I can't really give her any poo poo for siding with him, since Lanselot cornered her when she was off by herself. It's not like she was going to fight off the entire Dark Knight command unit by herself. In "Neutral" she _does_ shiv Leonard, who, in keeping with Tactic Ogres Choice Variable Morality, was becoming less of a dick.
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Dec 15, 2017 04:46
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Wasn't Catiua deeply war-weary earlier, and Denam continues fighting the war anyway? She was deeply unhappy before the big reveal; it doesn't excuse what she does, but people in pain lash out in bad ways, even (especially?) at those closest to them.
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Dec 15, 2017 06:06
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With 30 votes to 16... I never abandoned you.    The moment of truth
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Dec 15, 2017 08:14
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 I'm not hopeful
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Dec 15, 2017 09:42
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Drakenel posted:Basically this. There wasn't even a troop there surrounding her. She could have taken a jump and a swim to get away and Mr. Eyepatch in his heavy rear end armor would've been 'Well poo poo.' Catiua took one look at her outfit from Chapters 1/2 and decided to join the Evil Templars of Doom based on the reasoning that A) she was in her goth phase and needed a new look, and B) her current outfit was really bland. And then the rest of the game happened.
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Dec 15, 2017 09:54
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mauman posted:
Well hey, it's 50/50 right now which is... interesting for a multitude of reasons.
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Dec 15, 2017 12:38
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Drakenel posted:Basically this. There wasn't even a troop there surrounding her. She could have taken a jump and a swim to get away and Mr. Eyepatch in his heavy rear end armor would've been 'Well poo poo.' She's in the middle of a war, doesn't know who she is in the world, and is probably in a very bad state of mind. Then she runs into someone who has information on who she is (and to be fair, that information is correct) but who also has a history of inflicting mental torture and in general loving with people's minds. She's not dumb, she's vulnerable as most would be in such a poo poo situation. mauman fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 15:12
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tithin posted:Well hey, it's 50/50 right now which is... interesting for a multitude of reasons. That's interesting with comparatively large sample size, but I still say that after all this time chasing after her to start being cold now would be not only a mistake, but also cruel. Yeah, she was being dumb and made a lot of mistakes along the way, but it's not like Denam "I've massacred an entire city because a man told me to" is perfect either.
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Dec 15, 2017 20:31
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Not knowing anything about this game, I voted for "I took no joy in our parting" because the other option feels like a dodge. Catiua is clearly not convinced that Levi sees her as a sister, and pressing on that harder seems like it'd backfire.
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Dec 15, 2017 21:59
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Hm, one is marginally ahead! But I'm in no rush, so let's give it a while longer I'm actually surprised we have 40 odd votes, I was under the impression I had a grand total of 5 or 6 readers.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:56
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Not knowing anything about this game, I voted for "I took no joy in our parting" because the other option feels like a dodge. Catiua is clearly not convinced that Levi sees her as a sister, and pressing on that harder seems like it'd backfire. This, basically. Try and sound that out in fewer words. "I'm not a sister to you and you don't love me!" "what no I totally love you sis" "LIAR" *stab* As for catuia being vulnerable instead of being dumb, emotional distress doesn't exactly excuse poor decision making. It may make it understandable as to how they came to that conclusion, maybe even sympathetic, but like many people do in real life, it's often abused as a means of dodging responsibility for your own actions. Drakenel fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 23:10
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Drakenel posted:As for catuia being vulnerable instead of being dumb, emotional distress doesn't exactly excuse poor decision making. It may make it understandable as to how they came to that conclusion, maybe even sympathetic, but like many people do in real life, it's often abused as a means of dodging responsibility for your own actions. Still doesn't make her dumb.
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Dec 15, 2017 23:31
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mauman posted:Still doesn't make her dumb. Doesn't make her smart either. You can be emotionally unstable and be dumb at the same time. Though now that I think on it, it's more immaturity than stupidity. I'll grant you that one.
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Dec 15, 2017 23:33
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Drakenel posted:"I'm not a sister to you and you don't love me!" TheOneAndOnlyT fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 00:06
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For as much hate as Catiua gets, seeing all the time lines and knowing that she basically has PTSD, makes her probably my favorite tragic hero in a JRPG.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:34
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tithin posted:Hm, one is marginally ahead! But I'm in no rush, so let's give it a while longer my alts are indecisive
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Dec 16, 2017 03:37
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Birdstrike posted:my alts are indecisive my alt doesn't even listen to me anymore! I never remember which choice does what though, so here's hoping. I used to be kind of annoyed by Catiua back when I played the older version, but when you try and think of it more realistically, people in a war are gonna have some problems. Especially after that Balmamusa massacre poo poo. I've been looking at her more sympathetically while reading this LP.
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Dec 16, 2017 04:03
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waah posted:For as much hate as Catiua gets, seeing all the time lines and knowing that she basically has PTSD, makes her probably my favorite tragic hero in a JRPG. THAT we can agree on.  Bifauxnen posted:my alt doesn't even listen to me anymore! I never remember which choice does what though, so here's hoping. As someone who has the seen/grew up with the aftermath of someone who was in a war, I wholly agree. War will change a person (not might, will), and it will often break them too.
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Dec 16, 2017 05:10
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I guess what bothered me is that Catiua always gives Denam a whole lot of poo poo for trying to stop Fantasy Hitler. And yes, Balbatos is Fantasy Hitler, to the point that the original translation called places like Balmamusa concentration camps and referred to his policies as ethnic cleansing. So while choosing to go Law and kill the whole lot of them is without a doubt a bad thing to do, it feels like a last ditch tactic to stop more killing, especially by Ch3, where the reins of power have shifted and there's one last chance to put an end to it all. Then she up and leaves him on her own while claiming that he abandoned her. It's particularly damning where everyone reacts differently on all the routes with the same personality to an extent (and according to Matsuno, Vyce is apparently so petty that his negative reaction to the Ch1 choice no matter what is just jealousy for Denam), but she's rigid in who she is, just passively following her brother's every word and not really doing anything, until she decides for some reason that she's had enough and blames him throughout. Denam is the one risking his life and making the hard choices while the Dark Knights of all people go ahead and make her big decision for her. At the end of the day, sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, possible shell shock be damned. Vyce doesn't get any sympathy for his hosed up childhood. I mean, apparently she even met with Prancet while he was being tortured and still chose to hang on to Tartaros? That's all kinds of hosed up.
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Dec 16, 2017 07:57
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tithin posted:Hm, one is marginally ahead! But I'm in no rush, so let's give it a while longer Ehh, I never know what to say while reading most of these LPs, so I just lurk and vote in the periodic poll. I've been enjoying this LP!
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Dec 16, 2017 08:18
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Verant posted:Ehh, I never know what to say while reading most of these LPs, so I just lurk and vote in the periodic poll. I've been enjoying this LP! This.
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Dec 16, 2017 10:33
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Shitenshi posted:I guess what bothered me is that Catiua always gives Denam a whole lot of poo poo for trying to stop Fantasy Hitler. And yes, Balbatos is Fantasy Hitler, to the point that the original translation called places like Balmamusa concentration camps and referred to his policies as ethnic cleansing. So while choosing to go Law and kill the whole lot of them is without a doubt a bad thing to do, it feels like a last ditch tactic to stop more killing, especially by Ch3, where the reins of power have shifted and there's one last chance to put an end to it all. Thanks for explaining my thoughts better than I can myself. Catuia does deserve sympathy for being traumatized with what she's witnessed and even had to partake in, make no mistake. But bad decisions are still bad decisions. The important qualifier in all that is that she was never forced to do any of that, never really pressured or coerced. She came to her own conclusions. Though what happens in the next update will make or break the character, admittedly.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:31
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Shitenshi posted:I guess what bothered me is that Catiua always gives Denam a whole lot of poo poo for trying to stop Fantasy Hitler. And yes, Balbatos is Fantasy Hitler, to the point that the original translation called places like Balmamusa concentration camps and referred to his policies as ethnic cleansing. So while choosing to go Law and kill the whole lot of them is without a doubt a bad thing to do, it feels like a last ditch tactic to stop more killing, especially by Ch3, where the reins of power have shifted and there's one last chance to put an end to it all. It makes no sense until you've met enough hosed up people in real life who always seem to make horrible decisions when things are going right for them. Basically go read classic E/N posts and realise that mindset is Catiua. But instead of a self diagnosis of Aspergers or complete lack of self awareness, Catiua lives with the fact that she saw genocide and murder first hand. mauman posted:THAT we can agree on. The JRPG hero and his foil always reconcile right before the final boss or the end of the World. Being that I am short on ultimate evils Japanese bad guys at the moment, I guess this means Best Korea is gonna bomb us next week. Been a good run my dude.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:50
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Catiua would be a tragic heroine except she never does anything close to heroic. Everyone in Wallister has been through hosed up poo poo; none of it absolves her of responsibility of her actions. In the Law Route, Denam assisting in the civilian massacre is also pretty drat vile even by the hosed up standards of civil wars, but he doesn't run from his responsibilities (well, other than random story battles where he has to kill people who call him out on his butchery). quote:Basically go read classic E/N posts and realise that mindset is Catiua. Catiua is goony? I really don't think you're going to get her much sympathy with THAT angle...
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Dec 16, 2017 18:35
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waah posted:But instead of a self diagnosis of Aspergers or complete lack of self awareness, Catiua lives with the fact that she saw genocide and murder first hand. So did everyone else in this game. I'd understand if she was worried about her brother, but she up and leaves him, not the other way around. If she cares that much for him, stick by his side dammit, or at the very least, be honest enough to admit that she doesn't have the stomach for war. She might not agree with his path, but I think it's pretty obvious why he's doing what he does. In every single route by Chapter 3, when she makes her decision, there are pretty good reasons for why Denam is still fighting, but she goes ahead and judges him for it no matter what. It's understandable too why she'd be hesitant at the beginning, when they're just three kids surrounded by giant armies, but when they were able to free Ronway and Leonard, when they're able to even storm the castle and defeat the Duke's armies, that concern goes out the window. And to make matters worse, Catiua never shows any signs of neuroticism or vulnerability, she's just demanding and unpleasant. Her parting remarks to your first meeting with Ravness specifically added for this version seem like they were designed to emphasize that part of her character. Lest it needs to be reminded that when she had the choice to straight up ditch a bastard like Tartaros and rejoin her brother at Phidoch, she made the choice to reject him outright with a knife, this time without the excuse of growing tensions between them. And a counterpoint to someone like that is made in Chapter 2 Chaos where Cistina leaves Cerya not because of anything personal but because Cerya's plan for revolution is loving batshit. There's no family angst getting in the way, it's got everything to do with the bigger picture.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:00
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Catiua's Fate With a vote of 34 to 21, we chose:  This vote was fascinating to watch. Both options yoyo'd past each other until about 20 each, when "I took no joy" surged through. To save myself time in the future, I'm actually going to show off both options now, because making the "wrong" choice has a big impact on the storyline. I leave "wrong" choice to your own interpretation of the outcome. Both choices have a positive and a negative outcome. -----------//----------- The choice we're going with for this save   : You're the only family I have left! : Levi..: Father is dead. : As he lay dying, he told me something.: Had he returned you to the King when the prince died, this war might never have happened. : But he could not bring himself to hand over the child who called him "father." : He loved you too much!       -----------//----------- What could have been  : Your love is inconstant as the wind. It is my crown you love, not me. : You're wrong, Sister!              -----------//----------- Regardless of choice, the following event occurs immediately after we have our fateful discussion with Catiua. Tzorious Field     -----------//----------- Catiua's fate from a gameplay perspective brings one of three possible outcomes. 1/ She commits suicide. 2/ You kill her during the battle with Tartaros, assuming you did not have the will to wage war on her. 3/ She repents. Options one and two lead to Levi assuming the responsibilities of a Lord which is his unique class. The Lord is a jack of all trades class, this games equivalent of an Onion Knight, with little in the way of abilities in its own right but being functionally unrestricted in both terms of equipment and skills. The Lord is the single most flexible class in the game. Option three leads to the recruitment of Catiua - she has three unique classes. Priest, which we've already seen from her - being an upgraded Cleric. Dark Priest which was her class when she was with the Dark Knights, and Princess. I know little about these classes excepting that they're meant to be magical powerhouses of different varieties. I'll let our regular posters who've played the game far more than I have elaborate on the strengths and weaknesses of each of these classes. -----------//----------- Seperately, it's worth pointing out that the script on Gamefaqs for this scene is very different from what's actually in the game, leading me to think that the script loaded there may be from the original SNES game. The implications of that script make it seem far more that she was in love with Levi - which is one theory I personally think explains much of Catiua's actions to date. Alternate Script from somewhere inside a gamefaq members dark mind : How could you think I would want to be parted from you? You're the only family I have left!: But we're not family, Levi. Not really.: ...: I wanted to be your sister. No, more simple than that. I wanted to be near someone who needed me...for me.: ...: Why could we not be together? Why was I born a princess?[Catiua pulls out a knife and thrusts it into her chest. Levi leaps to catch her from falling.] : Sister, no! Someone! Help us!: I am a burden...no more...: No!-----------//----------- As we approach the end game we now gather our forces for a final speech and build up. Again, this scene is different depending on how Catiua was handled. As I'll never kill Catiua willingly in battle fighting her, I'll simply bring across the script. Catiua recruited     : You are most gracious, your Highness. : I wish only for this warring to be over. Peace cannot come a day too soon. : Nor will it come without the help of the Order of Emptyquote.: I expect great deeds of you.: And you shall have them, even if it means our lives. You Highness, you are welcome to remain here in Phidoch --- : Abuna Mreuva! If I am to lead my people, I cannot afford to remain holed away, far from where the arrows fly. : I will join the ranks, in the front. I will show my people and my soldiers who fights for them. : Do not worry on my behalf. That...is an order, Abuna.: As your Highness wishes.      : You've really come into your own, sister. : Father would be proud.: Come into my own? Odd, when I felt like someone else entirely.: Not to worry, Catiua. You will do splendidly.: I hope you're right.: Still, you should stay here in the castle. For your safety, and that of -  : Well, of course, but...: It's settled then. : Yes. The Dynast-King's spirit will protect me.: That's all well and good, but still...be careful.: Don't worry. I will.   Catiua is with us body and mind now. No longer a guest but a controllable unit proper. -----------//----------- Catiua commits suicide : Sadly, we were unable to save the Princess Versalia. : I lacked the strength.... The failure is mine. Forgive me. : But do not forgive the Dark Knights! : They abandoned the princess when they realized their own defeat was inevitable. : I tried to persuade her to our cause, but the Dark Knights had sown deep the seeds of doubt and fear. : She took her own life.... It is for her that we fight as well. : We're ready to march, my lord. Just give us the word.: Good. We move against the Bakram and the Dark Knights with everything we have. The final battle awaits. Onward to Heim![The soldiers leave.] : You did well.: I tire of this theater!: Do not say that. You must bring this war to an end. If that means enduring a little "theater," I think it a fair price.: I watched as my sister died.... Was that part of the price as well?: You must push such thoughts from your mind. Naught will come of it. : Right or wrong, let history be the judge. Now you must focus on the task at hand, Levi.: ...-----------//----------- Catiua is slain during the confrontation with Tartaros [Sullenly, Levi sits with Mreuva.] : Right yourself, Levi! This is no time for maudlin reflection! Much remains to be done, and swiftly.: I doubt that not. And all of it meaningless, without her.: So was it fated. You cannot blame yourself.: Fate? It was not fate who killed my sister! It was me!: Leave us.: M'lord.[The guards leave.] : You must calm yourself, Levi. If your men see you waver so, you will lose your command, and then the war. What is done is done. No amount of mourning will raise Catiua from the grave.: ...: With Catiua gone, only one path remains to us. The Dark Knights plotted her murder - what more reason do we need to brand them traitors and cast them from our shores! After all, it was they who drove the princess to her doom.: No. It was I who robbed her of hope. I did this...: What are you saying! Have you any idea how many lives you hold in your hand, commander? Prancet was right, you know. It is you who must lead us toward peace. Never forget that!: ...: The Bakram stir. There is no avoiding conflict now. I have ordered our men to prepare for an all-out attack. You must put this behind you. Our armies need their commander, Levi.[He leaves Levi alone.] : Catiua...
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Dec 17, 2017 05:07
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Verant posted:Ehh, I never know what to say while reading most of these LPs, so I just lurk and vote in the periodic poll. I've been enjoying this LP! akkristor posted:This. Glad you're enjoying the LP.
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Dec 17, 2017 05:15
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Great job, really nice to seet his storyline being played out.
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Dec 17, 2017 05:18
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One way of seeing Catiua in a positive light is that, after looking back at all her dialogue, she was kinda like Teta or Alma from FFT, someone who was weak and didn't belong in the war. I just don't think they did a good job of portraying it and so it's a lot easier to notice her negative qualities. So it used to bother me that she made such a 180 after rejoining Denam, but at the same time it seems like she's finally showing self-awareness.
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Dec 17, 2017 05:51
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Aww, I'm glad she's alive.
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Dec 17, 2017 06:22
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So given the way jobs work, are these character-unique jobs at a disadvantage since only one person can get experience for them?
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Dec 17, 2017 07:50
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Yeah. And Catiua's a little worse off than others, because you often want to learn high level priest skills with her, and then move her to princess for the better job. It wouldn't be so bad if it were a more traditional levelling system, but some of these classes just make you masochistic to try to use.
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Dec 17, 2017 08:08
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah. And Catiua's a little worse off than others, because you often want to learn high level priest skills with her, and then move her to princess for the better job. So does this game's leveling mechanics make more or less sense than the ones in Final Fantasy 2?
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Dec 17, 2017 08:13
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wedgekree posted:So does this game's leveling mechanics make more or less sense than the ones in Final Fantasy 2? More sense. Units gain XP purely through surviving battles in this, nothing more. FF2 from memory was obtuse, requiring you to use a stat to level it up, IE your HP would increase if you took damage, things like that. This is far more simple being that your class will level up automatically at the end of the battle, etc.
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Dec 17, 2017 08:16
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i am not ashamed to admit that i would just use cheats to get new classes up to the level of everyone else. gently caress the insane grind, especially for some of the other special classes.
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Dec 17, 2017 09:35
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quote:Again, this scene is different depending on how Catiua was handled. As I'll never kill Catiua willingly in battle fighting her, I'll simply bring across the script. While Denam's comments in the post-battle scene are indeed more morose (no audience, just him failing to hold it together if you kill Catiua directly), you are missing out for not doing it in battle! It's hilarious. Lans freaks out and tells you that you've just killed the one hope for peace that Valeria had. Denam also freaks out and blames (with some reason!) Lans for putting her in this position. Lans just peaces out and says he's done. Ah well, she deserved it. I like to put her to sleep first before murdering her, too. (She doesn't sport boss status immunities.) quote:So does this game's leveling mechanics make more or less sense than the ones in Final Fantasy 2? For a fun bit of leveling trivia related to Lord, since you could have potentially gotten it now. In general, the "catch-up XP" for underlevel classes is way, way, WAY too slow where level is the god-stat, and if you do try to catch them up with random battles, you probably make the game a laugher by accidentally overlevelling your main characters. Going even an extra level up on your main classes is potent, and going up two levels makes every story battle a joke for a time. However! There is a way around it. For some classes, at least. For whatever strange reason, the levelling algorithm is very, very impressed by solo'ing a fight. In other words, a single character solo'ing level 4 enemies grants far more XP than that class being deployed as 1 of 12 against level 16 enemies. Now, if you want to catch up C4 Sherri's Witch (rather than just changing her over to Enchantress), this may not help much, as solo'ing lots of enemies with Witch is difficult-to-impossible. Lord is a class that can do it, though. Assuming you've leveled Knight at all, Lord can steal Phalanx from that as well as Light Magic from a lot of options. Phalanx makes you nearly indestructible, and the healing magic fixes you up if somehow something sneaks past anyway (or a healing item, I suppose). The result is Lord Denam going on a solo killing spree, quickly, against low-level enemies and gaining 2-4 levels each (quick) combat. This is much faster than long fights against lots of C4 enemies at the rest of your party's level where Lord will only get a single level or so at the end anyway. It also has the virtue of not eliminating the challenge level of the game by overlevelling your other classes. Takes about half an hour of grinding solo battles to catch Lord up. quote:I'll let our regular posters who've played the game far more than I have elaborate on the strengths and weaknesses of each of these classes. * Priest is basically a better Cleric packing Spiritsurge & Judgement for actual offense, but missing out on Mother's Blessing or any other TP sink. It's solid, especially since it will actually have some levels from the early game, so is much faster to catch up. * Princess gets to equip swords and be slightly less frail to physicals! (Although if you want the Sword skill, you need to learn it elsewhere, IIRC.) She also gets various skills that only matter if you're doing Palace of the Dead and the postgame for exorcising the undead without necessarily needing Priest backup. Her Light magic selection is a little weird though, she loses out on Spiritsurge but still has Judgement I believe. And, of course, Princess is level 1, so she is going to be an item-girl until the very last battles of the Gardens most likely. So basically Priest is probably the best if you just want to finish the game. Princess is more interesting if you're potentially doing the postgame, or just want to see a new sprite. SnowFire fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 10:28
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Woot...we made it  Ok, here's the low down on the 3 classes. Priest - it's an upgraded cleric, one that can actually contribute to fighting. It's weaker in the healing department due to lack of certain skills however. Ultimately clerics are useless in my opinion so a fighting cleric is still half-useless. Pick up Holy Water though as it can be used by.... Princess - A variation of the Valkyrie, more or less. Tailor made to wield a certain sword. Her real Niche is badass undead slayer as she has access to Starlight (draconic magic must be acquired from the witch class), exorcism spells, the light apochrypha spells, and holy water. All of which seriously gently caress up undead and kill them dead dead in one shot. Lot's of undead in the post-game/bonus dungeons so she's worth bringing along. She loses summon/missile spells, but gains judgement. Can use meditation (again, from another class) and can wear a mage hat (but not robes) so mp isn't really an issue. She's also got access to all of the standard goodies in light spells like swiftness, status removal, and healing (if healing spells actually mattered). Dark Priest - Could have been a serious contender for best dark caster, but alas it wasn't meant to be. She suffers from a severe form of a problem that all 3 classes suffer from that massively hampers her use. Changes her sprite though so if you want to do something different . Also as mentioned you have to jump through some serious hoops to get class marks.All 3 classes suffer from bad or wonky spell lists. Priest has just a few combat spells but otherwise uses the cleric list (which is poo poo), the Dark priest, which SHOULD be awesome, lacks a multitude of spells from the dark list that make no sense not to have (including summons...grrr), and the princess has judgment, but neither missile nor summon spells though draconic and apocrypha spells somewhat make up for the lack of summons. Particularly starlight, since it's a very good damage spell + exorcism packaged together. Ultimately, princess is by far her best unique class and VERY useful if you develop her natural ability to SERIOUSLY gently caress undead up. That being said, she makes an excellent spellcasting ninja due to her higher than normal int and the fact that you are now right on the cusp of being able to find level 2 ninjitsu if you know where to look. She also makes an excellent valkyrie if you want to blast fools with summons. What's sad though is princess was the best class in the whole goddamn game in the original. Even though she's good here she's nowhere near as close to greatness as she once was 
mauman fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 13:05
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Hey Tithin, make sure you make a separate save and kill off Catiua before the next major story portion. Heim . It's a special battle that will not occur any other way. It's not particularly noteworthy other than the fact that it's a special battle.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:35
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waah posted:Hey Tithin, make sure you make a separate save and kill off Catiua before the next major story portion. Heim . I already saved over my file  I'll check my manual saves, if it's not too far back I'll go back just for that. As an FYI my next update is like to be the last for a bit. I have some time off for the holidays but I'll be leaving Melbourne to go see my new nephew who was born yesterday 
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Dec 17, 2017 22:32
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| # ? May 15, 2024 14:02 |
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waah posted:Hey Tithin, make sure you make a separate save and kill off Catiua before the next major story portion. Heim . That's what you-know-what tarot is for. So one can have their cake AND eat it too.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:18
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