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Milky Moor posted:You imply that TLJ is the same setup as the Battle of Endor (that Snoke wants to keep the Fleet around for... some reason that is never explained or even implicated) but Snoke never seems to care about it or follow up on it or even display any interest in the Fleet beyond the beginning of the film where he's angry that they're not dead. What kind of sadist ignores his victims entirely? That's strange characterization. I thought it was really weird that Snoke/Rey/Kylo's confrontation takes place in a featureless room. Like, in Return of the Jedi, there's windows showing the battle outside, the Emperor taunts Luke about the rebel fleet being destroyed, it's clearly connected to the situation outside. But here, they might as well not be on the flagship, there's no interaction between what happens in Snoke's room and the battle outside. They don't even have Finn and Rey work together to escape or anything when he infiltrates the same ship a few scenes later. I mean, why not just have Rey be captured and brought to Snoke's palace on another planet or something? It's just weird to have all the plots unfold in the same basic place but not have them interact or affect each other at all.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:02
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Did anyone feel that the film was trying to imply that Leia and Holdo may have been more than friends?
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Dec 16, 2017 13:03
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Captain Splendid posted:Did anyone feel that the film was trying to imply that Leia and Holdo may have been more than friends? When I first saw she had the same medallion, I was kinda hoping Rose would be the bomber pilot's girlfriend, not her sister. Come on, guys, even Star Trek's finally managed to include a LBGT couple!
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Dec 16, 2017 13:05
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Captain Splendid posted:Did anyone feel that the film was trying to imply that Leia and Holdo may have been more than friends? That was definitely what I got from that scene where they say goodbye Apparently Holdo is gay in that fuckin novel she debuted in
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Dec 16, 2017 13:07
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Angry Salami posted:When I first saw she had the same medallion, I was kinda hoping Rose would be the bomber pilot's girlfriend, not her sister. Come on, guys, even Star Trek's finally managed to include a LBGT couple! Deep Space 9 had that controversial lesbian kiss scene back in the 90s but one of them was like a reincarnated man or something so it didn't ~really~ count. Now that I think about it a lot of 90s shows had one-off hot girl kissing scenes, I WONDER WHY.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:08
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Mr. Flunchy posted:That the film appears to infuriate Star Wars nerds is more of a bonus tbh. Aren't the Star Wars nerds the one defending the film on the internet?
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Dec 16, 2017 13:11
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"Star Wars nerd" is a meaningless statement because there are like a billion of them and they all like different things. The only thing any of them can agree on is that the first two movies were good and Han shot first.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:14
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Angry Salami posted:When I first saw she had the same medallion, I was kinda hoping Rose would be the bomber pilot's girlfriend, not her sister. Come on, guys, even Star Trek's finally managed to include a LBGT couple! I was hoping this wasn't the case. We didn't need the Matrix 3 redshirt lesbians again.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:18
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I liked the Brazil reference and I liked how they ripped off Jodorowsky's Dune for the opening shot. The rest of the movie was also pretty good, imo. I liked it.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:27
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exquisite tea posted:"Star Wars nerd" is a meaningless statement because there are like a billion of them and they all like different things. The only thing any of them can agree on is that the first two movies were good and Han shot first. Get a load of this Star Wars nerd!
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Dec 16, 2017 13:29
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I think that while the central conflict in TLJ is old versus new, it doesn’t take a side, instead pushing for reconciliation. I mean, Yoda’s speech lays it out pretty explicitly, and is backed up by no less than three intersecting plot lines where the main characters don’t shut the gently caress up and listen to people with actual experience until it’s too late, only to get their asses saved by someone they’d maligned, overlooked, and underestimated in one of the movie’s most spectacular moments of heroism. Those who inflexibly side with the old ways (the resort planet, Snoke) are maintaining a powerful but fragile order built on cruelty,and will have their asses wrecked by the new potential they’re suppressing without ever seeing it coming. Kylo’s throne room speech, on the other hand, drives to the heart of the callous, shortsighted solipsism of a new world with no regard for the old - only I matter, only my actions can shape the world, and only my pleasures and my glories are worth pursuing. It’s an obvious message for a franchise where the most fundamental conflict is between selflessness and selfishness - reaching between generations, learning from the old and inspiring the young, involves interacting with and caring about people different than you, rather than monomaniacally focusing on the worldview and desires of your own kind. Plus, y’know, it’s an obvious bit of metacommentary for a sequel to a beloved franchise that began in the Seventies - don’t slavishly recreate it, don’t burn it down and start again, but learn from what worked and what didn’t and create something faithful but fresh.
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Dec 16, 2017 13:39
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Luke attacking Kylo in his sleep was so fuckin dumb
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Dec 16, 2017 14:02
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that while the central conflict in TLJ is old versus new, it doesn’t take a side, instead pushing for reconciliation. I mean, Yoda’s speech lays it out pretty explicitly, and is backed up by no less than three intersecting plot lines where the main characters don’t shut the gently caress up and listen to people with actual experience until it’s too late, only to get their asses saved by someone they’d maligned, overlooked, and underestimated in one of the movie’s most spectacular moments of heroism. Those who inflexibly side with the old ways (the resort planet, Snoke) are maintaining a powerful but fragile order built on cruelty,and will have their asses wrecked by the new potential they’re suppressing without ever seeing it coming. Kylo’s throne room speech, on the other hand, drives to the heart of the callous, shortsighted solipsism of a new world with no regard for the old - only I matter, only my actions can shape the world, and only my pleasures and my glories are worth pursuing. 5 Reasons Why We Need To Watch Out For Millenials
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Dec 16, 2017 14:04
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that while the central conflict in TLJ is old versus new, it doesn’t take a side, instead pushing for reconciliation. I mean, Yoda’s speech lays it out pretty explicitly, and is backed up by no less than three intersecting plot lines where the main characters don’t shut the gently caress up and listen to people with actual experience until it’s too late, only to get their asses saved by someone they’d maligned, overlooked, and underestimated in one of the movie’s most spectacular moments of heroism. Those who inflexibly side with the old ways (the resort planet, Snoke) are maintaining a powerful but fragile order built on cruelty,and will have their asses wrecked by the new potential they’re suppressing without ever seeing it coming. Kylo’s throne room speech, on the other hand, drives to the heart of the callous, shortsighted solipsism of a new world with no regard for the old - only I matter, only my actions can shape the world, and only my pleasures and my glories are worth pursuing. The film 100% takes sides. Luke, Yoda and Rey all choose "let the old poo poo die". Except for well.. rey picking up the books offscreen so maybe not? Who knows. It's up to JJ now.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:05
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Darth Walrus posted:I think that while the central conflict in TLJ is old versus new, it doesn’t take a side, instead pushing for reconciliation. You're right. The First Order reconciled the gently caress out of the Hosnian system. If only the Resistance had pushed to negotiate and compromise with the people who blow up whole planets.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:21
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Parsifal posted:I was hoping this wasn't the case. We didn't need the Matrix 3 redshirt lesbians again. I don't remember a drat thing about Matrix 3, and I prefer to keep it that way.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:31
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Milky Moor posted:You're right. The First Order reconciled the gently caress out of the Hosnian system. If only the Resistance had pushed to negotiate and compromise with the people who blow up whole planets. That’s a pretty aggressive misreading of my post. Star Wars has always been about accepting people who can empathise and fighting people who can’t (ideally, until they do learn empathy, but that’s not something you should bet on). The First Order are damning themselves because they deny any possibility of redemption - they’re so locked in their solipsism that they can’t imagine what lowly NPCs might have to teach them, and if they won’t let themselves be redeemed, you have to stop them hurting anyone else. emanresu tnuocca posted:The film 100% takes sides. Luke, Yoda and Rey all choose "let the old poo poo die". No Yoda doesn’t. He explicitly tells Luke to intervene because he has more to teach the next generation. Which he does, and they learn from it. What he warns against is overglamourising the old generation, letting your ego get in the way of teaching the youngsters what’s actually useful and important. Your failures are as worthy of passing on as your successes.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:34
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Why did absolutely everything have to be a psych out? Having a couple in choice places is a super powerful tool, but gently caress me this got so annoying in TLJ. Leia's dead... Nope! She's gonna defrost herself, float through space to a door, then we won't mention it again! Finn's gonna die sacrificing himself to buy time... Nope! Rose kamikazes in! BDT is a bad selfish guy... Nope! He just needed the medallion for its conductive properties and he's a deep down good dude who appreciates how much she cares about it... Nope! Sells them out! Holdo's a great leader, quoting Leia at her best... Nope! She's just a useless bureaucrat with no plan... Nope! She was doing the smart thing the whole time! Luke is going to stand there and sacrifice himself to Ren as penance for what ultimately created Ren... Nope! Just a projection! The jedi books are being burned, in the theme of Let it Die... Nope! Rey took them already! Finn and Rose made it to the tracker, they're finally gonna do something useful... Nope! Get tazed! There's absolutely no way out of this cave, we're definitely stuck here for the final stand... Nope! There IS a way out! Double NOPE!!!! It's blocked off!!! Triple reverse NOPE!!!!!! Rei's there to lift the rocks!!!!!!!! There were a ton more than I totally am not remembering or bothering with right now...Many of these would be fine or actively good on their own, if it wasn't for every. single. important. moment. in. the. movie. having to be a psych out. It also felt like the script got a single once over from Joss Whedon. Not enough to improve the quality of the dialogue, but he went ahead and peppered in a joke during every serious moment. Again, a good quip can be used to effectively fortify an important interpersonal moment, but when the good guys don't get to have a single serious emotional moment without a joke, it feels like it undermines it all to me.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:36
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I feel the beauty of this movie is that, where most long series try to establish a good jumping-in point, this one serves as a great jumping out point. Luke dies a warrior's death, Leia looks ready to hand everything over to the new generation, there's no real loose threads in the plot after the drama from VII, and war between good and evil is shown as cyclical with broom kids always rising to meet it. It's almost like RJ knew the film would piss people off and added some catharsis and closure to the ending. It's OK to walk away. 
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Dec 16, 2017 14:55
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Decius posted:Nope, he force picked it up. It's really easy to miss, just like that Rey packed up all the Jedi books (which makes me wonder if Yoda wanted to prevent Luke from finding out she took them or if he burned the tree because Luke wavered) I was afraid to ask because until I saw it a second time but I was sure the kid force pulled the broom. Decius posted:Nope, he force picked it up. It's really easy to miss, just like that Rey packed up all the Jedi books (which makes me wonder if Yoda wanted to prevent Luke from finding out she took them or if he burned the tree because Luke wavered)
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Dec 16, 2017 14:56
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Darth Walrus posted:That’s a pretty aggressive misreading of my post. Star Wars has always been about accepting people who can empathise and fighting people who can’t It hasn't. Star Wars has been always about slave-owners.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:57
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I gotta say tho... shirtless Driver just works so well. He’s the best loving parts of these movies.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:57
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Vintersorg posted:I gotta say tho... shirtless Driver just works so well. He’s the best loving parts of these movies. "Oh hey, Rey, didn't see ya there. Can you see my surroundings? You know which way the gym is? I think it's..." *flexes* "that way." Also, "Dreadnought Dry Cleaners! Guaranteed to get out the worst Snoke stains. 25% off your First Order!" CineD does not disappoint. I figured this would be the movie to bring everyone together, since it brings in most of the strong themes from the Prequels but has the OT style and also the most natural dialogue. Instead, everything is terrible because its not my fanfiction.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:15
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Angry Salami posted:When I first saw she had the same medallion, I was kinda hoping Rose would be the bomber pilot's girlfriend, not her sister. Come on, guys, even Star Trek's finally managed to include a LBGT couple! Yeah, need to have a token gay character to really advance the plot.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:20
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akadajet posted:Yeah, need to have a token gay character to really advance the plot. Yeah, because the token hetrosexual kiss between her and Finn really added so much to the story.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:25
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Angry Salami posted:Yeah, because the token hetrosexual kiss between her and Finn really added so much to the story. That's not what tokenism is lol.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:27
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Angry Salami posted:Yeah, because the token hetrosexual kiss between her and Finn really added so much to the story. Finn did not seem into it or her at all, which is kinda unusual as far as these things go.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:29
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Filthy Casual posted:Finn did not seem into it or her at all, which is kinda unusual as far as these things go. Yes. That moment seemed intentionally awkward.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:32
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Bottom Liner posted:It gave backstory for the galactic conflict, showed why spreading hope mattered, and gave all of the characters involved actual growth while also making GBS threads on Rogue One. why do you say it poo poo on r1? I did have to use the bathroom during the sequence so I missed context
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Dec 16, 2017 15:36
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Did we get a single lightsaber clash in this movie? That is criminal. No, those guard weapons don’t count.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:36
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gohmak posted:Did we get a single lightsaber clash in this movie? That is criminal. No, those guard weapons don’t count. Ben versus Luke in the flashback? 
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Dec 16, 2017 15:38
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This movie was super weird. Anything involving Rey, Kylo Ren, Luke, Leia, or Yoda was among the very best that Star Wars has ever been. The ending is absolutely perfect, a perfect conclusion to Luke's character. He fulfills Obi Wan's example, he reconciles his OT idealism with the understanding of the prequel's reality, he manages to hold off an entire army without abandoning his pacifism. It shows a strong understanding of the character, and the fact that he's pushing the Force harder that it ever has before fits great. The overall storyline was great too. It feels like a definitive portrayal of the Force and the history of the Jedi. Like Luke's storyline, it reconciles the critical approach to the Jedi of the prequels with the general franchise perspective. It's okay that the Jedi aren't perfect, because history moves past those mistakes. The past does die, and that's not something to necessarily be afraid of. It's an optimistic philosophy, and it gives all the cool action scenes of the climax their proper emotional resonance. The Finn and Rose plot, in contrast, is just fine. There's nothing technically wrong with it, but I just wasn't feeling it. I'm disappointed they didn't give John Boyega much to do, since he was one of the best parts of The Force Awakens and he spent most of his plotline here just listening to Rose's backstory. I think a lot of people will like that the male character takes a step back to let a woman take center stage, but it doesn't strike that balance as well as Fury Road. The stakes of the casino planet adventure were weirdly low, too. I get the feeling that when Kasdan was planning the story out he had a strong vision for what he wanted to do with Rey, Ben Solo, and the characters from the original trilogy, but he didn't have as much for Finn, Poe, and Rose to do so he had them spinning their wheels for the middle part. It's not really something that would break the movie on its own, but... ...the Poe Dameron storyline was the absolute worst part of the entire series. It was horrible. Oscar Isaac is strangely angry and sweaty through the whole thing. He's constantly yelling at people. He even yells at C-3PO! You don't have to yell at the robot, dude, he's just trying to help. He's done more for the galaxy than you can possibly imagine, you loving racist worm. He comes off as really unlikable for the whole thing. The first thing we see him doing in the movie is getting like fifty good guys killed, and then he goes on to get hundreds more killed. It's so weird, then, how everyone reacts like he's just an incorrigible rapscallion, instead of an active threat to the Resistance's mission. I know he's demoted because of his stunt at the beginning of the movie, but it seems like he still has a command powerful enough to stage a mutiny, which is bizarre because why would anyone follow this guy? That kind of ridiculous hero worship bleeds over to the Finn plot too when Rose sacrifices herself to save his life. Why are so many people required to die (or nearly die in the case of Rose) to salvage the egos of these guys? What exactly is it that they do that is so critical that it's okay that hundreds of people die so that they can continue doing it? It's all meant to ensure that Poe Learns a Lesson about how individualism sucks and collectivism rules, which is not necessarily a bad lesson to learn, but the obviously didactic structure made it feel more like a TV show episode than a movie. And not a prestige TV episode, like an episode of Friends or Gargoyles. That's what really makes it bad. The plot doesn't even make sense. I'm sure this has been discussed to death already, but if Laura Dern had literally taken five seconds to explain to Poe that there's a base they're trying to escape to and are planning to abandon ship when they're close enough to it, hundreds of people would have survived the movie. Were they worried about spies? If they were they should have said so. Also, I'm sorry, but Laura Dern's wig was atrocious. Just awful.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:42
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The movie would have been a lot better if the dialogue was less awkward throughout. I agree with the other poster who said humor was used badly. Also - the whole "Snoke implants an image of kylo being saved to motivate Rey to go to him" really needs to be shown onscreen and not just talked about. She just suddenly started talking about how she's SURE he can be saved and well I'm out! I seriously hope there was a deleted scene there or something because that was a huge leap that made no sense. And finally, Luke igniting his lightsaber and being about to attack Ben in his sleep is just the worst. It doesn't really add to kylo's character and is a really weird character choice for Luke.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:43
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pospysyl posted:And not a prestige TV episode, like an episode of Friends or Gargoyles. New thread title?
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Dec 16, 2017 15:50
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pospysyl posted:
That's a pretty sensible reaction to him from the audience. In TFA he's just this general unflappable cool guy with sick piloting skills, now we're seeing a logical extension of that attitude and how it can be dangerous for a leader to embrace. quote:The first thing we see him doing in the movie is getting like fifty good guys killed, and then he goes on to get hundreds more killed. It's so weird, then, how everyone reacts like he's just an incorrigible rapscallion, instead of an active threat to the Resistance's mission. I know he's demoted because of his stunt at the beginning of the movie, but it seems like he still has a command powerful enough to stage a mutiny, which is bizarre because why would anyone follow this guy? He still does generally kickass things for the Resistance, like take out all surface guns singlehandedly on the Dreadnought, and the kill streak on Maz's planet in TFA. The guy is a legend for the movement because of all the qualities we saw in the first movie. I don't think its so crazy people would rally around the guy, especially since Holdo never told anyone what the plan was, which is the lesson she (and Resistance command going forward) needed to learn: trusting your subordinates. quote:That kind of ridiculous hero worship bleeds over to the Finn plot too when Rose sacrifices herself to save his life. Why are so many people required to die (or nearly die in the case of Rose) to salvage the egos of these guys? What exactly is it that they do that is so critical that it's okay that hundreds of people die so that they can continue doing it? It's all meant to ensure that Poe Learns a Lesson about how individualism sucks and collectivism rules, which is not necessarily a bad lesson to learn, but the obviously didactic structure made it feel more like a TV show episode than a movie. And not a prestige TV episode, like an episode of Friends or Gargoyles. That's what really makes it bad. I think individualism vs. collectivism is a good frame for the whole thing. My take on how the Finn/Rose/Poe sequences is that being a hero isn't about some spectacular kill streak or explosion or any other ego stroking gesture, but about playing things smart and trying save and inspire as many people as you can.
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Dec 16, 2017 15:55
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I don't like how they turned Luke into some broken man. This is the same guy, who upon seeing the corpses of his foster parents, said "I want to become a Jedi and kick the Empire's rear end." This is a guy who mocks the Jedi Order for training Vader but who refused to hunt down and kill Kylo Ren.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:01
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Kurzon posted:I don't like how they turned Luke into some broken man. This is the same guy, who upon seeing the corpses of his foster parents, said "I want to become a Jedi and kick the Empire's rear end." This is a guy who mocks the Jedi Order for training Vader but who refused to hunt down and kill Kylo Ren. I thought Luke getting old, cranky, and disillusioned was pretty awesome.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Ben versus Luke in the flashback? I stand corrected. Thanks
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Dec 16, 2017 16:02
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s.i.r.e. posted:The Emperor doesn't need any backstory though because it's not important, ANH builds this universe of "The Empire are the Space Nazis and control everything." You don't need to give a poo poo about how they came to power because we don't know anything before then (until he prequels came into being and ruined that). You just accept it. The problem with the new trilogy is that ROTJ establishes that the Empire is destroyed and done with, yet this crippled Dark Jedi re-establishes the Empire somehow and makes it even larger and more powerful than before? That's a whole lot of bullshit the audience has to just accept. It doesn't work at all. Besides being kind of a plothole (HOW could this happen given what we know?), it's information that is useful to make the story believable. Something that really helps making fantasy worlds credible is when the characters feel like they exist like real people, meaning they have their own goals, their own desires, they exist separate from the heroes, they are not there just to drive the plot forward. Snoke doesn't, which is why he sucks. The absence of any kind of background information on Snoke, plus the fact that his goals read as a rehash of the Emperor, plus the fact that his existence doesn't really fit with the earlier six films, is pretty bad. Any of those three things is bad in itself, but trivial; they combine into something real lovely.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:07
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akadajet posted:I thought Luke getting old, cranky, and disillusioned was pretty awesome. Really the best part of the movie.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:08
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