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MonsterEnvy posted:They actually have admitted they have made mistakes and there are things they would change. The issue is that they are reluctant to patch the game because it's selling well and is well received. Glad we're on the same page 
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Dec 19, 2017 01:47
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kingcom posted:My favourite weird complaint will always be people losing it over multiclassing not really being a thing in 4e. As multiclassing is at the heart of D&D. Nobody remembers the weird xp curve thing that happened for the very rare characters playing a multiclass in 2e and how incredibly limited the multiclass packages were in 2e. Of the options, the only ones that were remotely useful were Fighter/Wizard or maybe Thief/Fighter or Thief/Wizard if you were playing a higher level game. O don’t forget that dual-classing was a separate, distinct thing from multiclassing! Or how saves as a concept were totally different! Remember alignment languages? But 4e was the weird one. Not the one that literally, by its own admission wanted to change everything. Because that’s how a 27 year old remembers D&D to be. Regardless of facts. (Okay that sounds groggy as gently caress but I’m like 29 and I’m just trying to show how dumb the argument is. )
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Dec 19, 2017 02:00
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Xiahou Dun posted:O don’t forget that dual-classing was a separate, distinct thing from multiclassing! God I love explaining what dual-classing was to 3.x grogs. Oh you want to multiclass as a human. Well if you want to do it in real d&d and not your baby idiot 3.x version, you need to reset to level 1 and level up again. If you're lucky you'll reach your old level and unlock those class abilities again. 
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Dec 19, 2017 02:13
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So I could use some build advice after getting a powerful magical weapon from a random roll at a low level. Plenty of people have just been mocking/back-handedly insulting my DM elsewhere so hopefully I can get some actual help here. I'm a Level 3 Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, no real way to respec or anything. I got a Dwarven Thrower, and on top of that a higher leveled party member gave me their old +2 Shield cause they got a +3 Shield. These are my stats currently, sans the new shield: 17 STR|13 DEX|16 CON|10 INT|12 WIS|8 CHA 14 AC/39 HP I have definitely crunched the numbers a little, it sucks that my big class stuff doesn't even work with throwing the weapon but I figured that going Fighter/Duelist/Battle Master for Superiority Dice for the extra 1d8 could be fun. But if anyone might have other options, I'd love to hear them!
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Dec 19, 2017 02:21
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Arthil posted:So I could use some build advice after getting a powerful magical weapon from a random roll at a low level. Plenty of people have just been mocking/back-handedly insulting my DM elsewhere so hopefully I can get some actual help here. I'd say to go the third path and make it narratively interesting. Instead of changing your character wildly to use it, or just discarding/selling it, try to find a large settlement of dwarves and take it to them. Tell them you have found a mighty weapon of their ancestors and try to wheel and deal with them for a great treasure, or information, or put an entire settlement of dwarves in your debt. Get them to offer you free blacksmithing services for life, or maybe give you first crack at some ancient tomb they discover while mining.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:39
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Arthil posted:So I could use some build advice after getting a powerful magical weapon from a random roll at a low level. Plenty of people have just been mocking/back-handedly insulting my DM elsewhere so hopefully I can get some actual help here. Well, build planning doesn't work that well in a game where the DM randomly drops powerful magic loot on you (unless there's ways to trade them in for other stuff or whatever), but an Ancestral Guardian sounds hilariously obnoxious with a Dwarven Thrower. Just use it against enemies and stand back, and watch as they get disadvantage against your allies - who get resistance against the damage even if they do get hit. You could even take Sharpshooter and improve your effective range from 20 to 60 feet. Sure you can't Reckless Attack or get Rage bonuses to damage, but all that party support against boss monsters!
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Dec 19, 2017 03:00
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Looks like I might be having to put together a character for this game. I assembled all my character interests and everything seems to have boiled down to a Valor Bard. I don't have a lot of player facing experience with this game, but this build type seems really good? I'm also wondering what you guys think the breakpoint is where Healing Word is no longer worthwhile.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:22
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kingcom posted:God I love explaining what dual-classing was to 3.x grogs. Oh you want to multiclass as a human. Well if you want to do it in real d&d and not your baby idiot 3.x version, you need to reset to level 1 and level up again. If you're lucky you'll reach your old level and unlock those class abilities again. O yeah you sound like a god drat crazy person ; it’s like summarizing the ending of Lost to someone who never watched it or something. It’s hilarious. And this is without going even older before race and class were distinct. All 4e did was be clear and give martials options. loving 2e (I think?) killed off the entire concept of assassins even in the actual worlds. Like the god of assassins died or something. God help me, but Arivia can you clarify please? I have never been able to care about ; it’s down there by the Elemental Plane of Salt in terms of fucks given.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:23
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Conspiratiorist posted:Well, build planning doesn't work that well in a game where the DM randomly drops powerful magic loot on you (unless there's ways to trade them in for other stuff or whatever), but an Ancestral Guardian sounds hilariously obnoxious with a Dwarven Thrower. Just use it against enemies and stand back, and watch as they get disadvantage against your allies - who get resistance against the damage even if they do get hit. You could even take Sharpshooter and improve your effective range from 20 to 60 feet. Yeah I'm not gonna lie that I went Ancestral Guardian with the intent to be kind of support. Although if I just went the dipping route for Battle Master I'd still also be able to do some silly poo poo while also providing more support via the main effect of the Maneuvers. I do wanna use this thing and with the nature of what I play in, a Multiverse created by our cities community wherein all these worlds are essentially connected and you can hop between games, I might not have the narrative chance to really benefit from offering an artifact like this to a bunch of fellow dwarves. The nice thing is I've earned the trust of another dwarf party member who is from a very weird mountain range which he's gonna base around his own game he'll DM. So I'd already have the favor of his clan/their god thanks to the shield he gave me.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:23
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Xiahou Dun posted:O yeah you sound like a god drat crazy person ; it’s like summarizing the ending of Lost to someone who never watched it or something. It’s hilarious. You're pretty much correct. Part of the change to 2e was removing objectionable content from the game after the moral panic over D&D. Assassins (which at the time were a class in the core rulebooks) were removed for that reason, as well as demons being renamed tanar'ri and devils renamed baatezu (and daemons becoming yugoloths, but that came a little bit later.) In the Forgotten Realms, the edition change was expressed through the first Realms-Shaking Event, the Time of Troubles. During the Time of Troubles the gods walked Faerun as mortal avatars. Bhaal, the god of assassins was slain by Cyric, who ascended to godhood after that killing and picked up most of Bhaal's portfolio. Assassins and murder were notably kept vacant however, and Bhaal's death caused the death of all his worshipers in turn, wiping the board clean of asssassins in the Realms in general. (One notable one from the Drizzt Do'Urden books survived.) If all this sounds familiar, it's also the setup for the Baldur's Gate computer games - shows you how much things changed over 2e that one of its major changes for acceptability was eventually reverted and brought it its greatest success eight years later.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:52
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DalaranJ posted:Looks like I might be having to put together a character for this game. I assembled all my character interests and everything seems to have boiled down to a Valor Bard. I don't have a lot of player facing experience with this game, but this build type seems really good? Yes, bard is really good, and there is no level where healing word is no longer worthwhile. (Though the heal quantity is quite low compared to how much HP you have, and compared to how much damage enemies deal... but the most important hit point is the last one, and healing word lets you pick an ally up as a bonus action.)
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Dec 19, 2017 03:57
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Arivia posted:You're pretty much correct. Part of the change to 2e was removing objectionable content from the game after the moral panic over D&D. Assassins (which at the time were a class in the core rulebooks) were removed for that reason, as well as demons being renamed tanar'ri and devils renamed baatezu (and daemons becoming yugoloths, but that came a little bit later.) O yeah I totally remember being like 8 and really wondering why they were doing this whole *wink wink* not calling them demons even though we do actually call them demons in the text. Thanks! Also the 2e Monster Manual for the invisible stalker being a blank image still makes me giggle to this day. I don't care.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:08
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Emy posted:(Though the heal quantity is quite low compared to how much HP you have, and compared to how much damage enemies deal... but the most important hit point is the last one, and healing word lets you pick an ally up as a bonus action.) No, I meant using higher level slots for it. At a certain point the fact that Cure Wounds does almost twice as much healing will outweigh the benefit of the quickened action and range, especially since I'll have just as much armor as a cleric.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:12
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DalaranJ posted:No, I meant using higher level slots for it. At a certain point the fact that Cure Wounds does almost twice as much healing will outweigh the benefit of the quickened action and range, especially since I'll have just as much armor as a cleric. No, because the hit point that matters the most is the last, which is what you want Healing Word for due to functioning off a Bonus Action and at Range, since you can pick up party members that go down without spending your movement or Action. You don't upcast Cure Wounds; you don't ever use Cure Wounds. In-combat healing is Healing Word, and out-of-combat recovery is Healing Spirit and Aura of Vitality.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:23
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DalaranJ posted:No, I meant using higher level slots for it. At a certain point the fact that Cure Wounds does almost twice as much healing will outweigh the benefit of the quickened action and range, especially since I'll have just as much armor as a cleric. Healing Word is not worth a higher level slot unless you're completely out of 1st level and need someone up immediately. The actual healing amount from the spell is inconsequential, it's usefulness comes from being a Bonus Action that takes someone from unconscious to up and at em. Edit: I do so wish there was a cantrip that gave people one hit point if they're at zero. It would break the game in a lot of ways (looking at you, Warlock).
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Dec 19, 2017 04:25
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Healing Word is not worth a higher level slot unless you're completely out of 1st level and need someone up immediately. There was. It got nerfed before release and now just stabilizes.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:45
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DalaranJ posted:No, I meant using higher level slots for it. At a certain point the fact that Cure Wounds does almost twice as much healing will outweigh the benefit of the quickened action and range, especially since I'll have just as much armor as a cleric. In that case the break point is level 2. As in, don't upcast healing word unless you're out of first level slots.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:58
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Babylon Astronaut posted:I think to really nail bounded accuracy, you'd have to have like "super damage" that counts as 100x or something to avoid the 48d4+9d10 bullshit that you need to be successful in the mid to late game. Also mages should be able to get any spell at any level but only cast them if they have the potential psychic energy to do so. Also we should bring psionics back into the game via a 25% chance that most humans have at least a minor psychic capability. Also, Glitter Boys.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:02
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I didn't know that Assassin thing. I thought they got dropped in the 1e > 2e change because they were complete poo poo. I like my version of events better.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:02
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FR also had a novel about someone being really annoyed at the Bard nerfs in 2E, and trying to forcibly change the mechanics back.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:27
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Zandar posted:FR also had a novel about someone being really annoyed at the Bard nerfs in 2E, and trying to forcibly change the mechanics back. Given how 5e works, I guess in there end, he succeeded.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:38
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I remember when the Assassins were all being killed. Salvatore was called and was told that Artemis Entreri was being killed off with the rest of them. Salvatore feeling that was a really stupid reason to kill off one of the major characters of his books, Retconned his class to spare him from death. Saying that he was a Fighter/Rogue Multiclass who specialized in killing people not part of the actual assassin class. (Not that he stopped referring to Entreri in the books as an assassin.) I assume the guy calling him knew it was bullshit reason to kill a character so accepted the reasoning to spare Entreri.
MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 05:45
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MonsterEnvy posted:I remember when all the Assassins were stated as being killed. The Drizzt author Salvatore was called and being told that Artemis Entreri as an assassin was being killed off with the rest of them. Salvatore feeling that was a really stupid reason to kill off one of the major characters of his books. Retconned his class to spare him from death. Saying that he was a Fighter/Rogue Multiclass who specialized in killing people not an actual assassin class. (Not that he stopped referring to Entreri in the books as an assassin.) I assume the guy calling him knew it was bullshit reason to kill a character so accepted the reasoning to spare Entreri. Reading this, I really am starting to think you're a bot. Like, these aren't normal person grammar errors. This is a computer shittily janked into emulating a human. Are you Mike Mearls' phone? Also please back up your loving ridiculous claims that we've been talking about. Just loving try. I could use a laugh. "The Drizzt author Salvatore was called and being..." is loving gold.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:49
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Xiahou Dun posted:Reading this, I really am starting to think you're a bot. Like, these aren't normal person grammar errors. This is a computer shittily janked into emulating a human. Are you Mike Mearls' phone? They were just errors and I fixed some of them. Also I was just repeating a little story I read related to what was being talked about on this page, no need to make fun of me for it. And what ridiculous claims. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 05:53
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That 3e is more like 2e than 4e is like 3e. Literally all I've written for the past two pages. Jesus christ I just realized you're 15. That should have been obvious and this is really on me. gently caress. Okay, so, like you know other RPG's exist and this isn't an identity thing, right? Edit : Jesus loving christ I pedantically made fun of your writing and you made a snarky comment about fixing it but it's still wrong at a 3rd grade level. loving hell. Nope . Not a bot. They're loving smarter than that. Never mind. Xiahou Dun fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 06:06
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You're arguing with someone would make the statement "squares are circles", and be convinced that the only reason you're not agreeing is that they're a poor communicator.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:11
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theironjef posted:Also mages should be able to get any spell at any level but only cast them if they have the potential psychic energy to do so. Also we should bring psionics back into the game via a 25% chance that most humans have at least a minor psychic capability. 
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Dec 19, 2017 06:24
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Here you go, monsterenvy. Try to remember that you're communicating entirely through the written word, so literacy does make a difference in allowing you to relay anecdotes: I remember when the decision was made to eliminate the assassin class from the game. TSR phoned Salvatore, who you may know as the creator of Drizzt. They told him that one of his characters, the assassin Artemis Entreri, was to be killed off. Understandably, Salvatore felt that acquiescing to moral panic was a really stupid reason to kill off one of the major characters of his books. Thinking quickly, he retconned Entreri's class in order to spare him from death. Salvatore told the suit who made the call that Entreri was actually a Fighter/Rogue Multiclass who specialized in killing people, and not an actual assassin (not that Salvatore stopped referring to Entreri as an assassin in the books he wrote). Since I'm Mike Mearls, I have the inside scoop; my colleagues told me that the suit calling Salvatore knew it was bullshit reason to kill a character, and so he accepted the reasoning, allowing Salvatore to spare Entreri.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:25
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Come on, im the first to dogpile monsterenvy but this is dumb.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:41
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kingcom posted:Come on, im the first to dogpile monsterenvy but this is dumb. The guy has just been getting worse and worse. He needs to ship up or shape out.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:46
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Arivia posted:The guy has just been getting worse and worse. He needs to ship up or shape out. But then who else will step into the void to vehemently defend 5e against any and all criticism regardless of merit.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:54
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kingcom posted:You caused wotc to have a panic attack and ban online play of the playtest so I think in the end it all worked out lol
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Dec 19, 2017 08:21
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Spiteski posted:But then who else will step into the void to vehemently defend 5e against any and all criticism regardless of merit. i'm sure we can find some other racist.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:32
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Splicer posted:That wasn't me(sadly), I just liked the picture. What that's story anyway?
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Dec 19, 2017 08:34
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There was an AD&D-era book which had a halfling who claimed to be a bard. Everyone they told refused to believe them because there was no such thing as a halfling bard.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:46
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Arthil posted:So I could use some build advice after getting a powerful magical weapon from a random roll at a low level. Plenty of people have just been mocking/back-handedly insulting my DM elsewhere so hopefully I can get some actual help here. Your stats don't make sense, did you roll for them? You have one too much con for point buy/array. Out of combat, note that the hammer returns to your hand "Immediately". Need to climb something? Tie a rope to the hammer and arc it around a parapet. Friend falls off a cliff? Throw them the hammer to pull them back up. You fall off a cliff? Go full Thor with it, throw it below you and catch it on the upswing. Knock on doors from far away. Turn off lights with it. Get some glue and use it to fetch things for you. Strap the halfling to it to scout out high places, or low places, or places in the other sides of chasms. Don't ask them first. Razorwired posted:I mean wasn't 4e the top rpg in book sales except for like one month it went to PF? And thats before you count the fact that most people were buying DDI subs instead of physical books. Splicer posted:There was at least 80,000 subscribers as per this thread, and a yearly subscription was 70 bux, which gives over five million gross annually. That's obviously peanuts compared to anything that's not the RPG industry, but within the RPG industry that's a money fountain.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:46
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mango sentinel posted:Exhaustion as a resource is bad. An iteration on the same ideas seems bad. D&D is a game about resource management and every other class operates on the idea that the cost of using your abilities is you don't have them later. As the adventuring day wears on characters get worse because they have fewer powerful abilities to rely on, but there's still a floor where they have some useful stuff. Using an exhaustion mechanics essentially means the psionist has the same limitation of getting weaker as the day wears on but you're dropping that floor so eventually you get a point where the character is baseline crippled, but doing another powerful thing is too dangerous to contemplate, and the party is basically handicapped carrying a useless character. I disagree. This came up with the Berzerker but the basic idea is: Exhaustion can be an excellent short term incentivizer. The problem comes when you build exhaustion under the assumption that it will accumulate in a linear direction until you stop adventuring, which agreed, is stupid, it's a death spiral on top of already wearing down resources. The key to making exhaustion work is to include easy to medially difficult ways to recover from exhaustion over the course of the adventuring day. You could throw exhaustion at a vampire character, for instance, until it feeds, and then it's not exhausted anymore, and you've reinforced the thing it's 'supposed' to be doing, e.g., drinking blood. A psionic might drain vital energy from foes, commune with psychic constructs, decode riddles, take on unusual personality quirks or even make alterations to their powers to cure exhaustion.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:48
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The problem with the vampire feeding or barbarian drinking a keg of ale to clear exhaustion thing is that at that point why even include the exhaustion mechanic? Your Berzerker is just going to blood drain the last guy/pound some beers at the end of every fight unless you specifically cockblock them about it. And if you're cockblocking them all the time why include the workaround?
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Dec 19, 2017 10:05
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Splicer posted:Importantly, that's the floor based on people with DDI accounts who also used the Wizards forums regularly, when e.g. in the group I was a member of nobody with a DDI account posted on their forums. So it was definitely much higher than that, but by how much is pretty much speculation. I'd guess (and it's just a guess) that players who bought (parts of) the game but never posted on the official forums is a much higher fraction of D&D players than it is of WoW players. I can't find the article, but it was from around ten years ago and was about what Blizzard sees when "everyone on the forums thinks X". It showed that only something like 5% of current WoW players had a forums account, only about a quarter of those had ever posted, and the number "regular" posters (which was something like "posted more than once a week over the last month) was some incredibly tiny fraction of the playerbase. Like nearly a thousand out of ~10 million people paying subscriptions.
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Dec 19, 2017 10:47
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Subjunctive posted:This sounds great. Would you expect problems with dropping the playtest fighter into release-version 5e? That's a really early playtest version - it's not compatible with the Proficiency Bonus system, and a lot of the "standard" class features aren't in yet. The later playtests are okay to drop-in to the game as a whole class, but the one you're quoting will need a lot of reworking to become compatible. Throwing Turtles posted:It was at a SDCC around that time. Wizards had a panel talking about all the exciting things they had planned for the future. They talked about mechanics which was forgettable, but they also spent a lot of time talking about now that the internet was a thing they wanted to the next edition that came out to be fully playable online out of the box. To be honest everybody in the room was pretty excited about it. Any game built to run like that is going to have a strict rule set and going to look a lot more like a board game. I wanted to pick out this quote because the idea that of an RPG with rules that are functional enough that "it's almost like a computer game", or "almost like a boardgame", or "can be run by anyone" shouldn't even be taken as a bad thing. Like, one of AD&D's reasons-for-being was so that there was a uniform ruleset that "referees" could refer to when running "tournament" games of D&D. Now, the model of "organized play" has since evolved to the point where the idea is to show up at your local game store and play a "normal" game of D&D without having to rastle-up a group by yourself, but that still means having to come up with a set of "consistent" rules so that you don't get screwed going from one DM to another in different weeks. I mean, think back to that tweet poll by Mearls where he asks about the possibility of showing up to a table with four other people, and one of you will volunteer to be the DM. Setting aside the whole "I paid for an experience" problem, the only way that model would work would be if the ruleset were written so well that there'd be a minimum of reinterpretation necessary. Not only did 5e deliberately swerve away from that, it holds it up as a point of pride that it did so! And at the same time, DM's engaging in organized play then have another layer of rules layered overtop of the rulebook to make it work the way it should! As much as I think the whole "4e was like a boardgame" is grognard bullshit, I also think that, well, good. Making an RPG as easy to approach as, say, Ticket to Ride, is cool and good. Razorwired posted:I mean wasn't 4e the top rpg in book sales except for like one month it went to PF? The latest version of D&D is always the best-selling version of D&D that was yet released. The only exception to this was during the days when BECMI and AD&D were two different and separate game-lines, and BECMI was arguably better-selling, but was killed-off anyway. The other watermark was when Pathfinder managed to beat D&D 4e in sales after Mearls's Essentials line managed to piss off people who liked 4e just the way it was, the people who still would have hated 4e for not being 3e no matter what, and retailers who were deathly afraid of another 3.0/3.5 situation. AlphaDog posted:I didn't know that Assassin thing. I thought they got dropped in the 1e > 2e change because they were complete poo poo. There was an Assassin player in an AD&D game that I ran who was extremely useful and powerful, but largely because I allowed her to apply the Disguise mechanic on everyone in the party, and because I allowed her to use poisons freely and often.
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Dec 19, 2017 11:37
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