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Milky Moor posted:Everything I see seems to indicate that loving TLJ comes with a deep sense of bringing contemporary views to it, as opposed to enjoying the Star Wars universe for what it... was. I was going to say 'is' but that's not true anymore. I love Star Wars and love TLJ, how do I fit into your formula
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Dec 20, 2017 06:23
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Tender Bender posted:I love Star Wars and love TLJ, how do I fit into your formula I believe the phrase is Uncle Owen.
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Dec 20, 2017 06:26
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Tender Bender posted:I love Star Wars and love TLJ, how do I fit into your formula Ditto. This one had some awesome action scenes. Probably more than any other Star Wars.
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Dec 20, 2017 06:29
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Penpal posted:Almond A traveller was walking along the road to Thebes when he was stopped by a fearsome Sphinx. “I shall let you pass if you can answer my riddle,” the Sphinx said. “Uhhh” the traveller replied “I’m kind of in a hurry right now”. “Dude I will kill you if you don’t answer it,” the beast encouraged, so the traveller agreed to answer the riddle. “how do they make almond milk?” the Sphinx queried. “those lil nuts are dry as hell and hard as, fuckin… uhh.. the Devil’s rear end,” he continued. “So what the gently caress.” The traveller was about to call him a dumbass, and ask him if he had a human brain or a cat brain because his riddle sucked so bad it could only have been thought of by either a hugely mentally challenged toddler or an animal when another traveller appeared. “Whoa,” said the Sphinx. “There’s never been two at once.” “Can I go?” asked the first traveller impatiently, and the second traveller pretended to be listening to music. “fuckin, no,” the Sphinx said, “just gimme a minute… you both have to answer it. But you’re not allowed to listen to each other. You have to both know the answer.” At this the travellers protested and told the Sphinx to gently caress off and gently caress his own rear end, but the Sphinx loosed a mighty roar. “Silence!” he yelled, and the two travellers fell silent. “WHo’s got some parchment,” the Sphinx asked, and the travellers dug around in their backpacks until they found a bit of parchment. The Sphinx repeated his question. The travellers wrote down their answers and handed them to him. “when it’s young the nut is moist” he read from both. “Ah yea… got it. That makes sense. Aight seeya.” As the travellers disappeared up the road, one of them turned back and yelled “just like your mum’s pussy!!” And the Sphinx let out a great cry of anguish, for he had been Owned
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Dec 20, 2017 06:41
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There’s an underlying assumption in your post that Luke in ROTJ is the apotheosis of his character, rather than just another stage in the overall story of his life. Other than not having any sequels entirely (which is a pointless hypothetical to discuss anyway, about as useless as people writing their fanfiction of how they’d do the prequels), there’s simply no way to maintain Luke in that end of ROTJ stasis. And nor should there be; I personally want something set past ROTJ to tell me how Luke has evolved since that time, not simply stayed a preternaturally wise and compassionate Jedi saint. All this is to say that I disagree that Luke at the end of TLJ has gotten back to where he was in ROTJ. He’s better. Luke by the end of ROTJ had had to face a lot of things, but never his own failure, at least in any sense that went beyond impacting him personally. And he had never had to be a teacher, to fail or succeed at that. The Luke at the end of TLJ has learned about failure, and he’s learned about the limits of failure - Kylo’s decisions were his own, and Luke doesn’t bear responsibility for that because he screwed up once. And he’s succeeded in Rey. After his darkest moment, in the depths of his self-pity, he’s still able to be the teacher she needs and start the next generation of Jedi. You say that the sequels could have been a story about the young people facing their own challenges unrelated to the older generation, but that’s not really the kind of story Star Wars is. Star Wars is about young people fixing the mistakes of the previous generation, and learning from their failures. The failure of the OT heroes, at least in the view of the sequels, is about as mild as you can get - they failed to live up to their own legends. They can’t solve all the problems, they can’t be perfect parents or perfect teachers or perfect Jedi saints, and learning to live with that and face the consequences is part of the journey of the old guard and the new. Milky Moor posted:Everything I see seems to indicate that loving TLJ comes with a deep sense of bringing contemporary views to it, as opposed to enjoying the Star Wars universe for what it... was. E: Like, I loved Rogue One and I think that movie has a lot more depth than people give it credit for, but this is the most excited I've been about Star Wars and what direction it's going to go in since...I dunno, the prequels ended. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 06:58
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Milky Moor posted:Everything I see seems to indicate that loving TLJ comes with a deep sense of bringing contemporary views to it So is hating it. Everyone brings "contemporary views" to how they watch movies. You are not an island, and these films were produced in the context of our culture for consumption by people who are a part of it, just like the original films and prequels were. A lot of peoples' politics are informing how they view the new Star Wars films, and you're in abject denial if you think that's limited to the people who like them.
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Dec 20, 2017 07:41
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Lord Krangdar posted:TLJ is not a mess, its about a messy situation. A plot of 1 hour is not particularly messy.
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Dec 20, 2017 07:46
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I haven't loved Star Wars for a long time and TLJ reminded me that I do. It's exactly what I needed to continue being a fan.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:34
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Cnut the Great posted:I really don't think "It's okay to make mistakes, you know" is such a grand, majestic, and deeply interesting theme that it justifies a boring two-hour retread of ANH followed by a weird structural mess of a movie about Luke turning out to be a sad depressed failure who's basically responsible for loving up the entire galaxy again after the optimistic and uplifting ending of ROTJ, only to "redeem" himself by becoming a hologram for a few minutes and briefly distracting some pouty goober so like twenty people can run out the back door, and then dying. Luke ultimately isn't the one who has to fix all his mistakes--Rey is. In the end, Luke didn't do any better than his elders. But that he did do better than his elders is the entire point of the original story, and what makes it so powerful. I know that's weird, because opinions and the internet, but I think you're making some really excellent points that have nothing to do with bad faith even though I disagree with some of their conclusions. Except that last bit about Rey and Luke. That's a bit of a silver bullet. Oof. I do wish Rey's story didn't climax with Luke and Yoda. Anyway, it's refreshing to see an honest disagreement.
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Dec 20, 2017 09:19
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Just wanna say I appreciate cnuts posts, they're elaborating my feelings almost perfectly. Also all this talk about how Tlj makes star wars contemporary or brings star wars to 2017 is loving repulsive. Star wars should exist out of time like all great fables/heroes journeys/epics 2017 loving blows and will be remembered as a deep dark time continuing from a deep dark time that began 9/11/2001 Ammanas fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 10:09
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Luke Skywalker is a hero and did very heroic things in this new film right there with the other heroic things in this film. I'm sorry you cannot see these things.
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Dec 20, 2017 10:16
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CelticPredator posted:Luke Skywalker is a hero and did very heroic things in this new film right there with the other heroic things in this film. I'm sorry you cannot see these things.
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Dec 20, 2017 10:22
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CelticPredator posted:Luke Skywalker is a hero and did very heroic things in this new film right there with the other heroic things in this film. I'm sorry you cannot see these things. I'd go so far as to say luke is at his MOST heroic in this movie. He's at his least heroic too. He has an arc, it's ok.
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Dec 20, 2017 10:41
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ShineDog posted:I'd go so far as to say luke is at his MOST heroic in this movie. He's at his least heroic too. He has an arc, it's ok.
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Dec 20, 2017 10:49
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Good Lord, it felt like the story structure was a bit all over the place, especially in second act.
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Dec 20, 2017 10:51
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What a mess. I am sort of in the HITB camp of my feelings being it's complicated. There were some interesting elements and it seems like at times wants to break the mold, but jesus christ what a mess. Like this was a first draft script of someone who was ambitious but clueless. Then they just shrugged and said gently caress it, let's get to filming, gotta make Xmas season. I don't even know where they can go from here that isn't another sort of uninspired loop. Ren is the strongest character and they tease an interesting idea of having some ambiguity with the force. The film should have embraced it and gone head on with him and Rey. It would have been ballsy and would have made for a more interesting premise. Instead we got a dozen meandering plots that really just lead to the weakest reset button the series has had yet. Part of me thinks you can probably salvage a little better film by making a fan edit that trims some of the excess fat to at least make the film flow better. Meh. unlawfulsoup fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 11:57
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Evilpiggie posted:Good Lord, it felt like the story structure was a bit all over the place, especially in second act. I'm pretty sure the film has like seven acts.
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Dec 20, 2017 12:06
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Cnut the Great posted:TLJ's take on Luke isn't the genius, virtuoso move by an iconoclast visionary that people are making it out to be. It's just Rian Johnson trying to make the best of the poorly thought-out status quo he was given. Maybe they should have spent less time tearing down Luke just so they could build him back up to his ROTJ self again, and more time building a strong arc for Rey, who still doesn't really have one. While I agree Rey could have been given more of a developmental arc in TLJ, I thought grumpy iconoclast Luke was great. Even better so is the reveal of how Ben managed to shake up his ethos. I really loved how the film presented Luke having this fleeting moment of Skywalker weakness, realizing that he had the power to wipe out the darkness he sensed in Ben from the universe forever. Really felt that was a great challenge to his character; the dark path is the quicker, easier, more seductive solution but Luke managed to rise above that, naturally. He was never going to just murder his nephew, but the fact that there even was a thought like that I felt was a good and interesting expansion of the character that justifies his change in worldview. How this action tragically hosed with Ben's worldview as a consequence and shaped Kylo Ren made for a really satisfying confrontation between the two on Crait. quote:The moment Ben "turned" I immediately knew exactly what was going to happen afterward Good for you! I was too caught up in the moment of how great that throne room brawl was that the film really had me thinking Ben actually came back to the light. Imagine my excitement when that's not what happened because I lacked the foresight to see it.
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Dec 20, 2017 12:56
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Ammanas posted:Just wanna say I appreciate cnuts posts, they're elaborating my feelings almost perfectly. Buddy... What do you think the original movies were?
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Dec 20, 2017 13:03
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euphronius posted:That one comedy remix of the prequels is really good. I forget what it's called but c3po is evil and hilarious. "Friend Besto" is a lot funnier to me than it really should be.
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Dec 20, 2017 13:57
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Jewmanji posted:Another critical component of the OT (and to a lesser degree the PT) that really feels notably absent in TFA and TLJ is the wonderful settings. ESB in particular has incredible sets throughout the film. Echo base, Dagobah, the carbon freezing chamber and the air shaft are totally iconic. Between TFA and TLJ there's very little that feels uniquely imaginative in a way that isn't a tired riff on an existing set from the OT. Do you think this might be because we've seen unique settings for 30 years in between the OT and now? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious your take. I thought Snoke's Throne Room, the Red Crystal caves, Casino World, and Jedi Island Complete With Dark Side Void Hole were all really cool to look at and interesting to think about (I love old temples and the Casino world seemed like it has more to explore). But, I feel like after the OT, then the PT, plus films like Fifth Element, Interstellar, Arrival, and Guardians of the Galaxy and others, we've seen tons of crazy alien places and planets. Not that new creative ideas can't come along, but I wonder if at a certain point, any "grounded" alien world is going to always feel like a reference to an older one. I guess we'll see when Wrinkle in Time comes out.
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Dec 20, 2017 14:37
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I feel like I missed something but whats the reason exactly WHY Rey cares at all about the rebellion and didn't join Kylo?
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Dec 20, 2017 14:42
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Finn and Han
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Dec 20, 2017 14:43
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Empress Brosephine posted:I feel like I missed something but whats the reason exactly WHY Rey cares at all about the rebellion and didn't join Kylo? I think maybe if you look at her personal experiences with each side in the 2015 film "The Force Awakens" it will become clear.
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Dec 20, 2017 14:47
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Empress Brosephine posted:I feel like I missed something but whats the reason exactly WHY Rey cares at all about the rebellion and didn't join Kylo? Because she isn't a selfish weirdo rear end in a top hat and thinks genocide isn't cool.
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Dec 20, 2017 14:49
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Cnut the Great posted:Long Cnut Post Yeah even though I liked TLJ I think you're spot on here. My immediate impression on walking out of the movie was that Rian Johnson had "Power Rangers Fan-Filmed" Star Wars. Y'all remember that Youtube video like, a long while back that was a super serious take on Power Rangers? It went pretty viral, I think for a lot of the same reasons some people who like TFA like it: to their eyes, Star Wars finally "caught up" with pop culture in age and that is seen as a good thing Seriously though, if any of you who liked TLJ's deconstructions are into that sort of thing, revisit the prequels with an open mind; they do a lot of really lovely and interesting things but from within the Lucas-ian Star Wars world
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Dec 20, 2017 15:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:Yeah even though I liked TLJ I think you're spot on here. My immediate impression on walking out of the movie was that Rian Johnson had "Power Rangers Fan-Filmed" Star Wars. Y'all remember that Youtube video like, a long while back that was a super serious take on Power Rangers? It went pretty viral, I think for a lot of the same reasons some people who like TFA like it: to their eyes, Star Wars finally "caught up" with pop culture in age and that is seen as a good thing I feel like this is kind of a misread of why people like this movie, especially in regards to the Power Rangers thing.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:29
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Waffles Inc. posted:Seriously though, if any of you who liked TLJ's deconstructions are into that sort of thing, revisit the prequels with an open mind; they do a lot of really lovely and interesting things but from within the Lucas-ian Star Wars world Yeah that's why I liked TLJ so much, it used the main ideas of the Prequels to liven up the inert set-up of TFA. Not sure about the other half of that post, though. Was the movie really so super serious? Cnut the Great posted:I really don't think "It's okay to make mistakes, you know" is such a grand, majestic, and deeply interesting theme that it justifies a boring two-hour retread of ANH followed by a weird structural mess of a movie about Luke turning out to be a sad depressed failure who's basically responsible for loving up the entire galaxy again after the optimistic and uplifting ending of ROTJ... The ending of ROTJ is only optimistic because it cuts away before the real work of rebuilding the Republic starts. Which was a fine place to end that trilogy, don't get me wrong. But then the prequels showed us that the Republic was the Empire. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 15:30
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Arist posted:I feel like this is kind of a misread of why people like this movie, especially in regards to the Power Rangers thing. Not *everyone* who likes it likes it because of that--or maybe even knows that they do, that's not what I'm suggesting. But there's an undercurrent in the reviews of Last Jedi on some of the more contemporary online platforms that is an odd mix of liking star wars and simultaneously hating it?? I can see this is getting away from me a bit; I don't think the movie is serious, my analogy to the Power Rangers thing is that it brought in Power Rangers imagery into a new world with new rules, and I feel like TLJ does that.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:36
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Ironic detachment from authentic experience is a plague on our times.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:38
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Waffles Inc. posted:Not *everyone* who likes it likes it because of that--or maybe even knows that they do, that's not what I'm suggesting. But there's an undercurrent in the reviews of Last Jedi on some of the more contemporary online platforms that is an odd mix of liking star wars and simultaneously hating it?? I don't hate Star Wars but I did hate seeing TFA's lifeless retread of past entries; the old movies are good but they already exist, we don't need them made again. Deconstruction isn't anything new in general, either, but like you said by the end of TLJ it feels like the world has changed, the rules have changed a little. Everything is a little more open-ended, a little more ambiguous.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:44
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Milky Moor posted:Everything I see seems to indicate that loving TLJ comes with a deep sense of bringing contemporary views to it, as opposed to enjoying the Star Wars universe for what it... was. I was going to say 'is' but that's not true anymore. So your criticism is that The Last Jedi reflects the current political climate? Star Wars was a pretty deeply political movie about the state of the world in which it was produced.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:49
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Cat Machine posted:He also managed to do it all without resorting to violence, it's very much in-line with the end of ROTJ Who started the fight with Rey after Luke found them cybering? I don't remember.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:54
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Danger posted:So your criticism is that The Last Jedi reflects the current political climate? Star Wars was a pretty deeply political movie about the state of the world in which it was produced. He seems to be saying that art isn't influenced by or reflective of the context in which it's made, except for The Last Jedi which is egregiously ripped from the 2017 headlines... It's a confusing read that seems to misunderstand both TLJ and also, I guess, every other movie. Also he's taking other people's half-baked critiques and attributing them to the movie, I think?
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Dec 20, 2017 15:54
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Who started the fight with Rey after Luke found them cybering? I don't remember. Rey asked Luke, Luke dodged the question, Rey tells him to stop, Luke doesn't, she whacks him on the back on the head with her staff.
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Dec 20, 2017 16:41
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Star Wars (the original) is a weird fusion of grungy 70s looks and escapism that is very much out of step with new hollywood and late 70s despair and cynicism. I know some people (Jameson, Linda Hutcheon) put its retread of old genres (westerns, science fiction serials, Kurosawa) in the postmodern camp, but to me it seems like a bunch of nerds just wanting to do the stuff their nerd obsessions are built around.
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Dec 20, 2017 16:48
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Lord Krangdar posted:The ending of ROTJ is only optimistic because it cuts away before the real work of rebuilding the Republic starts. Which was a fine place to end that trilogy, don't get me wrong. But then the prequels showed us that the Republic was the Empire. It's one of the primary rules of story telling; the difference between a happy story and a sad one is where you put 'The End'.
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Dec 20, 2017 16:59
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business hammocks posted:Star Wars (the original) is a weird fusion of grungy 70s looks and escapism that is very much out of step with new hollywood and late 70s despair and cynicism. I know some people (Jameson, Linda Hutcheon) put its retread of old genres (westerns, science fiction serials, Kurosawa) in the postmodern camp, but to me it seems like a bunch of nerds just wanting to do the stuff their nerd obsessions are built around. My wife played this for me last night: Tom Shales' review of Star Wars for All Things Considered back in 1977 http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2015/12/14/star-wars I love it because reading reviews of the OG movie gives us a fascinating look into how it was perceived, thematically Tom Shales posted:“It’s a complete science fiction fantasy with absolutely no redeeming moral values or moralistic values either.” So I think you're right on the nose that it was outside of the "mainstream" late 70s cinema attitudes, especially given Stamberg's question essentially being, "it's not one THOSE sci fi films is it?" In that light, it's fascinating to see praise for TLJ now 40 years later for essentially being of the zeitgeist instead of outside of it. Not that I think this praise is bad, but the contrast is what I'm noting
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Dec 20, 2017 17:02
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TFA = remix of ANH and ESB TLJ = remix of ESB and ROTJ What we are ending up with in IX is sort of a neo OT setting with a new rebellion lead by Rey and friends against Kylo. I am guessing IX will have a few Jedi trained by Rey fighting the Knights of Ren and Kylo. TLJ just took surface level risks to end up back at the status quo for Star Wars.
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Dec 20, 2017 17:11
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It's not really a remix. It's a genre movie with some of the same characters. But when the genre is Star Wars I mean... what are you expecting. A film noire detective story ?
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Dec 20, 2017 17:14
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