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Accusations of not "paying attention" are not helpful. I wasn't up making a sandwich during cutscenes, I was watching and trying to process. The game is vague and enigmatic about a lot of things. Considering it got passed over for story-related gaming awards, I may not be the only one frustrated with the presentation of the story.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:08
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Zoe posted:I do remember wondering what was going on with 2B when A2 found that memory suggesting that wasn't her real name, but unfortunately I didn't get to wonder long since some guy just blatantly spoiled this entire twist right here in the thread. So, much of the impact lost there, although looking back at all the hints and the way it recontextualizes a bunch of previous dialogic is still pretty neat. If you're referring to me (I was the one who wrote "maybe 2B is an E model"), I didn't "spoil" jack poo poo, I was, and still am, exactly as blind as you, mate.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:17
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Kase moch posted:Accusations of not "paying attention" are not helpful. I wasn't up making a sandwich during cutscenes, I was watching and trying to process. The game is vague and enigmatic about a lot of things. You just saw the game shove into your face “yo dawg 2B was 2e the whole time.” If you thought that was an unimportant revelation here, at the end of the game, then I do not know what to tell you.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:23
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Kase moch posted:Considering it got passed over for story-related gaming awards, I may not be the only one frustrated with the presentation of the story. Personal opinions aside, Nier is a Japanese game not made by Nintendo so it being even nominated for some game awards is an incredible feat.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:28
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Aumanor posted:If you're referring to me (I was the one who wrote "maybe 2B is an E model"), I didn't "spoil" jack poo poo, I was, and still am, exactly as blind as you, mate.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:30
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EclecticTastes posted:The way I interpreted it when I was catching up on the LP over the past few days (so everything is still fresh in my mind), is YoRHa is (was) the only remaining group that knows the truth about humanity at any level, and is the only group in regular contact with the "humans" on the moon. Therefore, by destroying YoRHa, you both eliminate all knowledge of the truth, as well as any ability to contact the "Council of Humanity" (the androids on the moon will be taken care of indefinitely by their regular shipments of water and empty crates, which are likely automated at this point). The intended result, given other information available, is to prevent a relapse of the initial despondency androids felt over the extinction of humanity, and ensure they continue to feel a sense of purpose in perpetuity. Was there any evidence that there are androids on the moon base? I thought the server was autonomous and just sends vague automatic broadcasts, and the occasional message crafted by android high command, which is on earth, and the shipments were just part of the deception. The yorha project was a propaganda effort, in addition to being a test bed for the machine-core powered android models. With the bunker gone and all of yorha save 9s dead and their data lost, only the android resistance leadership know that humans are extinct.
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Dec 21, 2017 21:57
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Remember how 2B kept saying emotions are prohibited and it always seemed like she was talking to herself? Think about it in the context of her knowing she has to kill 9S over and over and over again.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:14
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really queer Christmas posted:You just saw the game shove into your face “yo dawg 2B was 2e the whole time.” If you thought that was an unimportant revelation here, at the end of the game, then I do not know what to tell you. I didn't realize it was important because the ramifications were poorly emphasized. I barely remembered that E types were assassin bots, and as to who she was supposed to be assassinating all this time, well that went right over my head. As others have said, maybe a few clues or flashbacks at the time of the revelation to tie all this stuff together would've been nice? Telling a story is a little more involved than just presentation of the facts. Kase moch fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 22:15
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Kase moch posted:Accusations of not "paying attention" are not helpful. I wasn't up making a sandwich during cutscenes, I was watching and trying to process. The game is vague and enigmatic about a lot of things. It's actually winning awards for its story from quite a lot of well known journalistic outlets. It didn't win the Doritopope story award, but considering that show is one long advertisement to get you to buy christmas presents where big games and developers pay money to get their trailers shown, I'm gonna go with a "well yea". Kase moch posted:Didn't say it was an unimportant revelation. I said the ramifications of that were poorly emphasized. I barely remembered that E types were assassin bots, and as to who she was supposed to be assassinating all this time, well that went right over my head. As others have said, maybe a few clues at the time of the revelation to tie all this stuff together would've been nice? Telling a story is a little more involved than just presentation of the facts. The clues are widespread throughout the game, the game itself encourages you to replay it, Yoko Taro doesn't want to spoonfeed when he can avoid it. Most of the fandom have pieced this together themselves. cirus posted:Remember how 2B kept saying emotions are prohibited and it always seemed like she was talking to herself? Think about it in the context of her knowing she has to kill 9S over and over and over again. And the fact that none of the other important YoRHa members adhere to this rule, including the Commander choosing to go down with the ship.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:20
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Josuke Higashikata posted:The clues are widespread throughout the game, the game itself encourages you to replay it, Yoko Taro doesn't want to spoonfeed when he can avoid it. Most of the fandom have pieced this together themselves. Fair enough. I suppose I prefer media that doesn't require time spent "piecing together" the basic plot outside of the time I'm interacting with the media. That, or the game just didn't spark my interest enough to want to invest that kind of time.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:28
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Kase moch posted:I didn't realize it was important because the ramifications were poorly emphasized. I barely remembered that E types were assassin bots, and as to who she was supposed to be assassinating all this time, well that went right over my head. As others have said, maybe a few clues or flashbacks at the time of the revelation to tie all this stuff together would've been nice? Telling a story is a little more involved than just presentation of the facts. But they just... she just said 2B's job was to kill him when he found out too much. They showed her strangling him.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:37
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Aumanor posted:If you're referring to me (I was the one who wrote "maybe 2B is an E model"), I didn't "spoil" jack poo poo, I was, and still am, exactly as blind as you, mate. Nice meltdown and all but I was referring to whoever it was who directly posted '9S kept figuring things out and so had to be assigned 2B as his personal assassin' and then seemed so confused as to how that constituted a spoiler that when people got mad he went and posted it again.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:44
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Can you explain what was ambiguous or confusing about the scene?
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Dec 21, 2017 22:48
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Momomo posted:But they just... she just said 2B's job was to kill him when he found out too much. They showed her strangling him. "The official designation... is 2E. Number 2, Type E. They were a special class of members designated to execute YoRHa units." That's what it says. Yep, it shows her strangling him, but that one seemed like it had a good reason: he was infected with a virus. There's nothing there in that cutscene that I see that would lead to the knowledge that 2B/E's special job was to follow 9S around and kill him whenever he learned the truth about humanity. I'm not debating that's what the game is saying; you guys are right about all the other little pieces throughout the rest of the game that support it. I'm only saying it seems like an obtuse way to present this very important plot point, and I'm disappointed in the game for making it non-obvious. If this discussion is making GBS threads up the thread I'll stop immediately.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:51
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“2B hated to keep killing you. It caused her so much pain. The 9S type is a high-end model. They knew you’d discover the truth eventually.”
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Dec 21, 2017 23:01
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So...why not just retire the 9S model? Or is this a thing with all Scanner models and all of them have Type E's assigned to them?
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Dec 21, 2017 23:06
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Kase moch posted:Fair enough. I suppose I prefer media that doesn't require time spent "piecing together" the basic plot outside of the time I'm interacting with the media. That, or the game just didn't spark my interest enough to want to invest that kind of time. I get that. Even games where I am invested there's often the case of "i'm paying attention to the story, but I'm concentrating on playing." It's why I've really enjoyed following LP threads of RPGs or other games that do foreshadowing and subtle stuff, cause there's the time and ability to pick through important moments that took like 10-20 seconds without being distracted by everything else. Or to go back and remind yourself of something that happened 20, 40, 70 gameplay hours ago. Even if that does occasionally mean that commenters in popular threads like Id's sometimes get intensely nitpicky and retread the same ground from spending days discussing a 3-10 minute scene that the game immediately moves on from. The Dark Id posted:Let’s be real... the last actually dangers enemy Zagglezig fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 23:06
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Kavak posted:So...why not just retire the 9S model?
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Dec 21, 2017 23:12
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Yeah, I don't think it's stated outright, but the implication is that "needs to be murdered occasionally" is basically an acceptable side effect of him being really, really good at loving up machines.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:17
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The capability level they need in a handful of Scanners is probably just above the capabilities Yorha has to keep that info hidden.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:19
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9S gets way better combat data than anyone else, and as we know, that's what really matters
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Dec 21, 2017 23:19
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It’s why hacking is so powerful- the game is showing you that 9S is super necessary to Yorhas plans, and in the fight against the machines. So it’s worth the extra expense to keep him “docile”.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:20
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I can barely follow the story so it's not just you mate.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:21
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Kase moch posted:If this discussion is making GBS threads up the thread I'll stop immediately. Nah, it's just interesting to see what people focus on. I thought this was pretty clearly stated, but I also missed all but the most blatant instances of the holographic red girls showing up so seeing them crop up in TDI's screenshots was pretty  Essentially, Beefstew posted:It's like those videos that ask you to keep track of how many times a basketball is passed between players, and after counting them it then asks you if you saw the gorilla who's very conspicuously in frame.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:24
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Crigit posted:Was there any evidence that there are androids on the moon base? I thought the server was autonomous and just sends vague automatic broadcasts, and the occasional message crafted by android high command, which is on earth, and the shipments were just part of the deception. The yorha project was a propaganda effort, in addition to being a test bed for the machine-core powered android models. With the bunker gone and all of yorha save 9s dead and their data lost, only the android resistance leadership know that humans are extinct. A couple of crates had water and repair materials in them. Androids' fusion reactors are powered by water, so it stands to reason that there's someone up there to use the repair materials for repairs.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:29
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The Scanner situation reminds me of the treatment of Peridot and the Zircons in Steven Universe - created to be a scientist/lawyer/generally smart logical person, but as soon as they start questioning their assumptions, which is literally what they are made to do, they get in trouble. (Steven Universe spoilers for those who don't watch the show, not Nier)9S/Zircon learns/figures out too much about the underlying situation and they get poo poo on, Peridot tries to present her findings to Yellow Diamond, gets poo poo on.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:39
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Crigit posted:Was there any evidence that there are androids on the moon base? I thought the server was autonomous and just sends vague automatic broadcasts, and the occasional message crafted by android high command, which is on earth, and the shipments were just part of the deception. The yorha project was a propaganda effort, in addition to being a test bed for the machine-core powered android models. With the bunker gone and all of yorha save 9s dead and their data lost, only the android resistance leadership know that humans are extinct. The fake shipments included real water, which was established as the only form of "sustenance" required by androids (to run their fusion reactors). This implies that there were still androids there that needed it. I forget what else was on the manifest, but suffice it to say, the station is very likely manned. It makes sense, because someone would need to be there to maintain the various databases, and automated messages couldn't adapt to changing situations as easily as actual agents, no matter how many contingencies were included. And where did you get the idea that the android resistance leaders know that humans are extinct? I haven't seen anything that says that.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:49
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I think it's explained in extra materials that Scanner models don't have melee combat capabilities, they can't equip or wield melee weapons. The more eagle-eyed in our audience might have noticed that 9S can; that's because he self-hacked the NCSC in himself, probably after heavily reprogramming it to his tastes. That's how good our Hackerman (HackerCaim?) is.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:50
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EclecticTastes posted:The fake shipments included real water, which was established as the only form of "sustenance" required by androids (to run their fusion reactors). This implies that there were still androids there that needed it. I forget what else was on the manifest, but suffice it to say, the station is very likely manned. It makes sense, because someone would need to be there to maintain the various databases, and automated messages couldn't adapt to changing situations as easily as actual agents, no matter how many contingencies were included. And where did you get the idea that the android resistance leaders know that humans are extinct? I haven't seen anything that says that. The manifests were mostly empty space, most likely to keep a skeleton crew of androids running. If humans were really there, they'd be sending food and protein powder instead of pure water.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:01
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Omobono posted:I think it's explained in extra materials that Scanner models don't have melee combat capabilities, they can't equip or wield melee weapons.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:20
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Billzasilver posted:The manifests were mostly empty space, most likely to keep a skeleton crew of androids running. If humans were really there, they'd be sending food and protein powder instead of pure water. That's what I was saying, though?  When I said "manned" I was referring to androids, not men made of meat parts.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:29
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And why he isn’t as effective. He’s not designed to hit things with swords and such so his hitting isn’t as good as 2B and A2. Also as I recall he’s literally a physically lighter model with less mechanical muscle and such.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:29
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Maybe I skimmed over too much of the story, but I'm not understanding what YoRHa was even created for. Did YoRHa's creators ever actually have any intent of doing anything for humanity? Because every document we've found recently has suggested that YoRHa androids basically only exist to kill a bunch of machines and then each other for no real reason. What was the point of the organization in the first place? I'm hoping this isn't spoiler territory and I just missed something over the last 100+ updates.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:08
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To make the bulk of androids think that there are humans living on the moon, giving them something to live for.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:28
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Maybe I skimmed over too much of the story, but I'm not understanding what YoRHa was even created for. Did YoRHa's creators ever actually have any intent of doing anything for humanity? Because every document we've found recently has suggested that YoRHa androids basically only exist to kill a bunch of machines and then each other for no real reason. What was the point of the organization in the first place? They were essentially used to boost the morale of the other, non-YoRHa androids.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:33
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And they used fake androids to do it because it'd be cruel to do it to real androids. Thats right, 9S's feelings are all fake and lovely, ignore him.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:36
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I don't understand how people can think there weren't enough hints about this reveal when literally the last two pages of the thread have been people posting all the implicit hints about this reveal.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:41
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Maybe I skimmed over too much of the story, but I'm not understanding what YoRHa was even created for. Did YoRHa's creators ever actually have any intent of doing anything for humanity? Because every document we've found recently has suggested that YoRHa androids basically only exist to kill a bunch of machines and then each other for no real reason. What was the point of the organization in the first place? Yorha was created for the glory of mankind.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:46
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The fact we are about to hit ending C and have had zero direct contact with whatever high up androids came up with Yorha is also probably a bad sign. The machines just said that they want the war to continue enhance their network. Yorha androids use machine cores. I won’t be totally surprised if it’s basically an unwitting arm of the Machine Network. Alaan fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 01:51
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Synthbuttrange posted:And they used fake androids to do it because it'd be cruel to do it to real androids. It's alright, you can't be racist against machines. They only think they have feelings!
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