Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Don Gato: Apr 28, 2013; Actually a bipedal cat.; Grimey Drawer

Louis xiv had the uncanny gift to always do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time, even though the dude obviously wasn't megalomaniacal and just did what he felt was right, problem was he was king at a time France needed a strong and decisive leader who could unite the various factions and push forward and instead he was... Louis XIV

# ? Dec 22, 2017 03:04

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 14:08

packetmantis: Feb 26, 2013

Anyone watching the new history channel show Knightfall?

# ? Dec 22, 2017 03:11

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

I do have my doubts as to how great Sun King Lu really was, seeing as how inept his grandson was, as well as how little structural/bureaucratic systems his grandson had to fall back on. Maybe it was one of those things where a smart, fully capable person has no idea that he'd be dead one day and only ever shut down people who would limit his power with such safeguards.

nothing to seehere posted:

There's the theory about "advantages of backwardness" here. France and Spain are prosperous enough they never need to focus on doing revenue generation properly, and suffer for it later - Britain and Prussia, have less natural resources, so they get better at squeezing what they have when eventually pays off. Of course, this doesn't fit every case ( the Dutch).

Hell, you could say the English had even more trouble with taxation, seeing as how when they were trying to pay off their debt from the seven years' war, they decided to make the jerks who started the whole thing it pay for it, but then that started a whole nother war.

And this is a century after they had their whole thing with a king blatantly doing illegal taxes.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 03:17

Don Gato: Apr 28, 2013; Actually a bipedal cat.; Grimey Drawer

SlothfulCobra posted:

I do have my doubts as to how great Sun King Lu really was, seeing as how inept his grandson was, as well as how little structural/bureaucratic systems his grandson had to fall back on. Maybe it was one of those things where a smart, fully capable person has no idea that he'd be dead one day and only ever shut down people who would limit his power with such safeguards.
.

I think that is the problem. France under Louis XIV worked because he was the Sun King, and he probably assumed everyone after could either coast on his reputation or would also be a Sun King. It just so happened that the system created by him required someone like him to keep from going to hell, which honestly probably wouldn't have been a huge issue but combined with the dire financial situation XVI (im just gonna refer to them by number from now on) inherited it became an existential crisis for the Royals.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 03:29

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

Hegel who was that early modern Italian woman who was a military theorist and, I think, a writer, maybe with an eyepatch but I might be misremembering. The Italian one not the french woman who kept beating guys in duels because she kept stealing their girlfriends. I need this for a discussion on the ninja turtles, tia.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 03:35

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Nebakenezzer posted:

With our newsfeeds eternally spamming us with algorithm dictated content, it shouldn't surprise you that I came across an article in Wired talking about the Rebellion's military mistakes [spoilery for those who care]

PS> Adleran shot first

Honestly I was amazed that the rebels took that long to realize that hyperdrive basically makes all other weapons obsolete and Im amazed people dont do that more. Like they could have just hyperdrived a fighter into the death star and solved that easily.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 04:53

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

Telsa Cola posted:

Honestly I was amazed that the rebels took that long to realize that hyperdrive basically makes all other weapons obsolete and Im amazed people dont do that more. Like they could have just hyperdrived a fighter into the death star and solved that easily.

While I haven't seen the newer movies (due to not getting around to them), the pre-Disney canon explicitly stated that that is a physical impossibility.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 04:56

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Gnoman posted:

While I haven't seen the newer movies (due to not getting around to them), the pre-Disney canon explicitly stated that that is a physical impossibility.

Well they do it.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 04:57

Gnoman: Feb 12, 2014; Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme

If it happens in the Disney films, than them not doing so becomes a case of a sequel-induced plot hole. Before they axed the old EU, there was an explanation in place.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 05:08

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

golden bubble posted:

Revolutionary France loved to flip their poo poo every time they had a setback during the War of the First Coalition.

A common failing of many revolutions. It's sort of unavoidable because when you are rewriting all the rules that govern society, it's not hard for everything you're doing to be erased.

Thucydides had some amazing lines on the struggle of the Corcyreans against their oligarchs. You could take a great many of his lines apply them practically verbatim to many Cold War era conflicts. as well as Revolutionary France.

Thucydides: III posted:

The Corcyraeans, made aware of the approach of the Athenian fleet and of the departure of the enemy, brought the Messenians from outside the walls into the town, and ordered the fleet which they had manned to sail round into the Hyllaic harbour; and while it was so doing, slew such of their enemies as they laid hands on, dispatching afterwards, as they landed them, those whom they had persuaded to go on board the ships. Next they went to the sanctuary of Hera and persuaded about fifty men to take their trial, and condemned them all to death. The mass of the suppliants who had refused to do so, on seeing what was taking place, slew each other there in the consecrated ground; while some hanged themselves upon the trees, and others destroyed themselves as they were severally able. During seven days that Eurymedon stayed with his sixty ships, the Corcyraeans were engaged in butchering those of their fellow citizens whom they regarded as their enemies: and although the crime imputed was that of attempting to put down the democracy, some were slain also for private hatred, others by their debtors because of the moneys owed to them. Death thus raged in every shape; and, as usually happens at such times, there was no length to which violence did not go; sons were killed by their fathers, and suppliants dragged from the altar or slain upon it; while some were even walled up in the temple of Dionysus and died there.

So bloody was the march of the revolution, and the impression which it made was the greater as it was one of the first to occur. Later on, one may say, the whole Hellenic world was convulsed; struggles being every, where made by the popular chiefs to bring in the Athenians, and by the oligarchs to introduce the Lacedaemonians. In peace there would have been neither the pretext nor the wish to make such an invitation; but in war, with an alliance always at the command of either faction for the hurt of their adversaries and their own corresponding advantage, opportunities for bringing in the foreigner were never wanting to the revolutionary parties. The sufferings which revolution entailed upon the cities were many and terrible, such as have occurred and always will occur, as long as the nature of mankind remains the same; though in a severer or milder form, and varying in their symptoms, according to the variety of the particular cases. In peace and prosperity, states and individuals have better sentiments, because they do not find themselves suddenly confronted with imperious necessities; but war takes away the easy supply of daily wants, and so proves a rough master, that brings most men's characters to a level with their fortunes.

Revolution thus ran its course from city to city, and the places which it arrived at last, from having heard what had been done before, carried to a still greater excess the refinement of their inventions, as manifested in the cunning of their enterprises and the atrocity of their reprisals. Words had to change their ordinary meaning and to take that which was now given them. Reckless audacity came to be considered the courage of a loyal ally; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation was held to be a cloak for unmanliness; ability to see all sides of a question, inaptness to act on any. Frantic violence became the attribute of manliness; cautious plotting, a justifiable means of self-defence. The advocate of extreme measures was always trustworthy; his opponent a man to be suspected. To succeed in a plot was to have a shrewd head, to divine a plot a still shrewder; but to try to provide against having to do either was to break up your party and to be afraid of your adversaries. In fine, to forestall an intending criminal, or to suggest the idea of a crime where it was wanting, was equally commended until even blood became a weaker tie than party, from the superior readiness of those united by the latter to dare everything without reserve; for such associations had not in view the blessings derivable from established institutions but were formed by ambition for their overthrow; and the confidence of their members in each other rested less on any religious sanction than upon complicity in crime. The fair proposals of an adversary were met with jealous precautions by the stronger of the two, and not with a generous confidence. Revenge also was held of more account than self-preservation. Oaths of reconciliation, being only proffered on either side to meet an immediate difficulty, only held good so long as no other weapon was at hand; but when opportunity offered, he who first ventured to seize it and to take his enemy off his guard, thought this perfidious vengeance sweeter than an open one, since, considerations of safety apart, success by treachery won him the palm of superior intelligence.

Indeed it is generally the case that men are readier to call rogues clever than simpletons honest, and are as ashamed of being the second as they are proud of being the first. The cause of all these evils was the lust for power arising from greed and ambition; and from these passions proceeded the violence of parties once engaged in contention. The leaders in the cities, each provided with the fairest professions, on the one side with the cry of political equality of the people, on the other of a moderate aristocracy, sought prizes for themselves in those public interests which they pretended to cherish, and, recoiling from no means in their struggles for ascendancy engaged in the direst excesses; in their acts of vengeance they went to even greater lengths, not stopping at what justice or the good of the state demanded, but making the party caprice of the moment their only standard, and invoking with equal readiness the condemnation of an unjust verdict or the authority of the strong arm to glut the animosities of the hour. Thus religion was in honour with neither party; but the use of fair phrases to arrive at guilty ends was in high reputation. Meanwhile the moderate part of the citizens perished between the two, either for not joining in the quarrel, or because envy would not suffer them to escape.

Thus every form of iniquity took root in the Hellenic countries by reason of the troubles. . . Indeed men too often take upon themselves in the prosecution of their revenge to set the example of doing away with those general laws to which all alike can look for salvation in adversity, instead of allowing them to subsist against the day of danger when their aid may be required.

This passage is somewhat unusual for Thucydides who generally strictly sticks to just the facts and the events of the Peloponnesian War. Here however he seems to lose his composure for a moment and slips into general and despairing statements about the nature of all men, and rather than putting the words in the mouth of participant in the revolution says them himself. I suspect this section is to some extent a reaction to the 30 Tyrants who seized Thucydides' city in the aftermath of the Peloponesian war and whose bloody oligarchical revolution was characterized by all the vices he describes herein, as would be most future revolutions. By the most common accounts of his life Thucydides died several years after the fall of their regime, and thus it would have loomed large in his mind when when he was composing his work.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 05:35

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Tunicate posted:

He did two of those articles

https://angrystaffofficer.com/2017/12/18/a-leadership-vacuum-the-last-jedi-and-mission-failure/

Or this,

https://angrystaffofficer.com/2017/11/21/i-didnt-know/

That's a bunch of assholes who need DDs right quick.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 06:12

Geisladisk: Sep 15, 2007

Someone posted this in the Historical wargaming thread:

Frobbe posted:

A friend has been busy building Hitlers fevered dreams for his alternate reality afrika korps. the ratte and monster are mostly cardboard and plasticard.

Which set me wondering - How serious were the proposals for the Ratte and Monster? The patent absurdity of those proposals should have been immediately apparent, yet they seem to have gained some traction within the Nazi Military-Industrial complex, floating around for a year before Albert Speer presumably muttered "what the ever loving gently caress is this bullshit" and ripped them up.

Did anyone seriously think they were ever going to:

1) Manage to get these things operational
2) Have the resources to build even one
3) Not have them immediately immobilized by artillery or air strikes?

What was going on? The traditional explanation that gets floated around the internet is "meth is a hell of a drug". It can't be that simplistic, can it?

# ? Dec 22, 2017 11:36

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Maybe their designers had experience with railroad guns, ships or other massive projects and thought that that would be the sweet scale?

# ? Dec 22, 2017 11:58

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

SlothfulCobra posted:

I do have my doubts as to how great Sun King Lu really was, seeing as how inept his grandson was, as well as how little structural/bureaucratic systems his grandson had to fall back on. Maybe it was one of those things where a smart, fully capable person has no idea that he'd be dead one day and only ever shut down people who would limit his power with such safeguards.

Hell, you could say the English had even more trouble with taxation, seeing as how when they were trying to pay off their debt from the seven years' war, they decided to make the jerks who started the whole thing it pay for it, but then that started a whole nother war.

And this is a century after they had their whole thing with a king blatantly doing illegal taxes.

Not really, French and Indian War still a sideshow compared to the Continent. Also, taxes approved by the King-in-Parliament are legal by definition in Britain and its colonies. Parliament is sovereign. That's where new law comes from. The whole problem with Charles I was because he tried to sidestep that.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:20

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

What even is the "monster"? Was that a thing nazi engineers actually theorized about? :stare:

Alchenar posted:

The French revolution is an enormously complicated historical event the causes of which can nevertheless be reduced to 'France never worked out how to tax the people who actually had money'.

England by contrast demonstrated the knock-on benefits of having a functioning taxation system, which is that in moments of crisis you can go to lenders and raise enormous amounts of cash at pretty favourable rates. Note that the UK had also just fought the American Revolutionary War and the Seven Year's War and did not suffer a revolution or collapse. We did however end up with the first income tax, which Americans will recognise as a fate worse than death.

The way americans refuse to understand that universal income taxes are a critical part of a dignified, non-feudal society never cease to amaze( and depress :eng99:

) me.

golden bubble posted:

Well first you have to be in Paris, the Vend�e, Lyon, Toulon, Marseille, or Bordeaux. The terror didn't really do much outside of those regions. The guillotine was a response to the continuing food crisis and the defeats of the French revolutionary armies. If you are in any way suspected of raising grain prices, counter-revolutionary ideas (being an aristocrat is almost the same as being counter-revolutionary in those times), clericalism, speaking out against the government, or being related to French military defeats (the lev�e-en-masse cannot fail, it can only be failed), you could be arrested. Strange as it is, you could be arrested and guillotined for being too far left for the government, like Jacques H�bert. But you have to remember that this is the same revolution that saw the September Massacres. That is to say, when a Prussian army took Verdun, the Parisians did not believe this was the result of Prussian military prowess, but of traitors inside France. So to save the city, a mob lynched every single prisoner in all the Paris prisons to prevent them from joining any royalist armies. Revolutionary France loved to flip their poo poo every time they had a setback during the War of the First Coalition.

Thanks a lot fam! I knew.. almost none of this. I thought it was just nobles straight up building their own biedermeier village to frolic in, which, unlike actual French villages outside Paris, had food in it.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:29

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

SlothfulCobra posted:

I do have my doubts as to how great Sun King Lu really was, seeing as how inept his grandson was, as well as how little structural/bureaucratic systems his grandson had to fall back on. Maybe it was one of those things where a smart, fully capable person has no idea that he'd be dead one day

this is the same thing that happened with Phillip II, he did a whole lot of Spain's paperwork himself and was not great at delegating

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:46

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Milo and POTUS posted:

Hegel who was that early modern Italian woman who was a military theorist and, I think, a writer, maybe with an eyepatch but I might be misremembering. The Italian one not the french woman who kept beating guys in duels because she kept stealing their girlfriends. I need this for a discussion on the ninja turtles, tia.

ana mendoza princess of eboli. spanish not italian, badass not military theorist

arrested for treason

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_de_Mendoza,_Princess_of_Eboli

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:48

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

HEY GUNS posted:

ana mendoza princess of eboli. spanish not italian, badass not military theorist

arrested for treason

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_de_Mendoza,_Princess_of_Eboli

Def awesome but I could have swore there was some Italian lady with some Mil Theory chops

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:53

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Milo and POTUS posted:

Def awesome but I could have swore there was some Italian lady with some Mil Theory chops

christine of pisan was a military theorist but she's french

caterina sforza was a military leader but not a military theorist

???

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:54

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

HEY GUNS posted:

christine of pisan was a military theorist but she's french

caterina sforza was a military leader but not a military theorist

???

Probably mistook Pisan for Pisa. I'll have you know anybody could make that mistake :P

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:57

Geisladisk: Sep 15, 2007

Tias posted:

What even is the "monster"? Was that a thing nazi engineers actually theorized about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster

Basically a Schwerer Gustaf 800mm railway gun minus the railway. A self-propelled 800mm gun.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 12:57

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Milo and POTUS posted:

Probably mistook Pisan for Pisa. I'll have you know anybody could make that mistake :P

She eqs born in Venice. Her father was from Pizzano, near Bologna, hence the name. When she was a kid, her father took a job as astrologer and physician to the King of France. She started writing in order to support herself, her mom and her kids after her husband died.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 13:49

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Epicurius posted:

She eqs born in Venice. Her father was from Pizzano, near Bologna, hence the name. When she was a kid, her father took a job as astrologer and physician to the King of France. She started writing in order to support herself, her mom and her kids after her husband died.

No poo poo, today i learned

thanks bro!

# ? Dec 22, 2017 14:01

Clarence: May 3, 2012

13th KRRC War Diary, 22nd Dec 1917 posted:

Baths were allotted to the Battalion from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. the whole Battalion had a hot bath and change of underclothing.

A hot bath? Fancy!

# ? Dec 22, 2017 14:17

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

Geisladisk posted:

Someone posted this in the Historical wargaming thread:

Which set me wondering - How serious were the proposals for the Ratte and Monster? The patent absurdity of those proposals should have been immediately apparent, yet they seem to have gained some traction within the Nazi Military-Industrial complex, floating around for a year before Albert Speer presumably muttered "what the ever loving gently caress is this bullshit" and ripped them up.

Did anyone seriously think they were ever going to:

1) Manage to get these things operational
2) Have the resources to build even one
3) Not have them immediately immobilized by artillery or air strikes?

What was going on? The traditional explanation that gets floated around the internet is "meth is a hell of a drug". It can't be that simplistic, can it?

Similar ideas were floated in Allied nations as well. I particularly like a Canadian equivalent that only had ~160 mm of armour.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 16:00

Geisladisk: Sep 15, 2007

Ensign Expendable posted:

Similar ideas were floated in Allied nations as well. I particularly like a Canadian equivalent that only had ~160 mm of armour.

You can't just tease me like that without giving me any juicy deets. :allears:

# ? Dec 22, 2017 16:24

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

Gnoman posted:

If it happens in the Disney films, than them not doing so becomes a case of a sequel-induced plot hole. Before they axed the old EU, there was an explanation in place.

I'm happy to have a plot hole instead of space otter sex.

E: and space bug sex

# ? Dec 22, 2017 16:38

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Geisladisk posted:

Someone posted this in the Historical wargaming thread:

Which set me wondering - How serious were the proposals for the Ratte and Monster? The patent absurdity of those proposals should have been immediately apparent, yet they seem to have gained some traction within the Nazi Military-Industrial complex, floating around for a year before Albert Speer presumably muttered "what the ever loving gently caress is this bullshit" and ripped them up.

Did anyone seriously think they were ever going to:

1) Manage to get these things operational
2) Have the resources to build even one
3) Not have them immediately immobilized by artillery or air strikes?

What was going on? The traditional explanation that gets floated around the internet is "meth is a hell of a drug". It can't be that simplistic, can it?

1) No
2) Yes, but it would have taken a lot of time and not been useful in any way
3) Nope

Basically they kept going with literal WONDER WEAPON design to the point of being absolutely absurd. There was no way they, the RATTE and MONSTER, could ever be built and survive in times of Allied air superiority, not to mention that the logistics it would require and speed at which it could deploy would make it useless from the get-go.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 16:52

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

Geisladisk posted:

You can't just tease me like that without giving me any juicy deets.

I was mistaken, it was actually 5 inches of armour.

Also: http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2017/11/canadian-super-tank.html

# ? Dec 22, 2017 17:00

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

What if the Maus had three anti-air guns atop it as well as a GTAM platform

# ? Dec 22, 2017 17:06

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Plutonis posted:

What if the Maus had three anti-air guns atop it as well as a GTAM platform

A few AA guns would be nothing but a minor nuisance to any Allied air attacks. You'd have whole squadrons of B-26s pounding the ever loving poo poo out of it.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 17:18

Ainsley McTree: Feb 19, 2004

What if you built a big trampoline on top of it so that the bombs bounced up and blew up all the planes instead

# ? Dec 22, 2017 17:21

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Geisladisk posted:

What was going on? The traditional explanation that gets floated around the internet is "meth is a hell of a drug". It can't be that simplistic, can it?

So there's kind of a different answer here for each of three broad categories.

The first are super-heavy tanks like the Maus, where it was clear that tank warfare was trending towards very heavy tanks with large caliber, high velocity guns, but it wasn't yet clear at what point you hit diminishing returns. Everyone played around with this idea and quickly discovered that they had reached that point.

The second is the giant self propelled gun idea, like the Monster. These are still crazy, but crazy like a fox if you don't know ahead of time how rapidly guided rocketry and mobile launchers are going to advance. Large siege guns were extremely useful in both world wars, but transport was a pain in the rear end. Railway guns were a help there, but they were naturally restricted in movement and placement. Putting a railway gun on some sort of tank/crawler chassis makes a lot of sense from that point of view. You aren't trying to move it quickly, you're just trying to reduce the logistical overhead and expand the areas you can operate it in. You're still looking at a large scale operation to shift it around, like when they move giant mining equipment or when NASA's crawlers haul a rocket out to the launch pad. If it hadn't so quickly become clear that things like the SCUD were going to be a better option, one of the super powers probably would have built a giant self-propelled artillery piece eventually.

The third, for things like the Ratte... Well, meth is a hell of a drug.

Okay to be fair, there is a sliver of a decent idea even there. It's an extension of the thinking that leads to the Maus, coupled with the fact that everyone had a class of very large guns already fully developed - naval cannons. Mounting a powerful weapon you already knew worked into a super-heavy tank as spearhead for big armor battles like Kursk wouldn't necessarily peg as bonkers at first glance, though it was pretty out there. Something that could carry two and had a garage for it's own scout vehicles, though... That was always absurd no matter which way you looked at it.

Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 22, 2017

# ? Dec 22, 2017 17:31

Ensign Expendable: Nov 11, 2008; Lager beer is proof that god loves us; Pillbug

After the rather ineffective performance of the Karl mortars, it's hard to think "we need this but bigger".

# ? Dec 22, 2017 18:40

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Ensign Expendable posted:

After the rather ineffective performance of the Karl mortars, it's hard to think "we need this but bigger".

Responding to failure by arguing for the same but more is a long military tradition.

A long human tradition, really.

# ? Dec 22, 2017 18:52

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

A few months ago I finished a 1/144 Ratte tank, and I've been thinking about it, off and on, ever since. I understand it's kinda dumb to use rationality to criticize it anyway, but I have a few thoughts if anybody wants to bat 'em around.

I'm pretty sure the whole "tank" aspect of the Ratte ultratank is useless. The Ratte was going to be very valuable, so letting a swarm of enemy tanks within weapons range is a fuckup in of itself. That, and let's assume for a moment that the armor made the Ratte invulnerable to pretty much any tank weapon. It's still vulnerable to aircraft, heavy artillery, etc. So the armor is there at staggering cost, but it can't protect against the likely attacks it would experience - the stuff it **can** protect against is a secondary threat.
Mobility. Imagine how much fuel it would take for a King Tiger to drive directly from the factory to the eastern front. Imagine how many tracks and transmission changes that would take. Now imagine you have the transmission problem solved, but your tank is 10-20x times the mass.
Leads me to my next point: fuel consumption. I'm guessing even a optimistically light Ratte is going to need so much diesel it will be risky to go out of sight of railway tracks. I know from reading around, possibly some of EE's stuff, that fuel consumption by itself restricted later German armor operations in a weird sorta way: they were so dependent on rail for moving and supplies they couldn't operate away from their rail lines. The Ratte probably would have had to follow rail lines, in addition to all its other mobility restrictions, and the Panzer division around it probably would have to deal with all sorts of horrendous refueling problems the instant it had to move away from rail lines.
Another mobility problem is what happens when something breaks. One advantage to ships (aside from their vastly better fuel consumption) is that if they take serious damage, there are fleet tugs to tow them. The Ratte doesn't have this. A lucky hit on its drivetrain renders it immobile, and then it has to be fixed wherever that happens, if it is getting fixed at all. Considering how much it weighs, I'd think the "best" solution would be for the Ratte to have its own internal jacking system so it could lift itself up. About the only plus here is that the Ratte has many engines and a very simple transmission, which would make repairs on these two components relatively easy.
Yet another mobility problem. Let's say the Ratte is in the Crimea, attacking Sevastopol, and the city falls, the campaign is over. Great! Now you just point the behemouth in a new direction - and over the next few weeks or months it tries to regain the front line. Maybe it's most needed at the Leningrad siege, but you're poo poo out of luck, because it would take 6-8 months of travel to get there, with correspondingly vast energy and maintenance requirements. You're not needed at Rostov, Ratte, but I guess we can send you there...
Then you have the opposite situation: getting cut off from your supply lines. This turns the Ratte into a static fort.
Basically the only conditions you can use the Ratte without risking its loss is 1) complete air superiority, and 2) inviolate supply lines, which implies to me you've already won.
I mean c'mon Germany, you've given up on surface ships on the ocean, why in the name of gently caress do you think a ship on land isn't going to have to deal with the same issues

Anyway, not a lot suprise there - lots of flaws. For some reason, I've been daydreaming how to overcome those flaws:

I suspect that if you really wanted to use the most useful bit of the Ratte (the enormous naval artillery) the best, most energy efficent way to do it would be to make a vehicle that can be transported by rail, and built/broken down at the site. If you want to give it mobility, sure, give it tracks.
Similarly, if you wanted a really giant siege tank, making it water/rail transportable, and then assembling it where you want it is probably the best way to do it. This will put a size limit on how big the tank can be, but at least you don't have to drive it to where it needs to be.
If you got to go Ratte, you should really make a ship/deployment craft for it. The Ratte could use it's electric drivetrain to power it, and then it could travel with Naval escort. I think either way you are going to be closely tied to your transport device. But a formation of Rattes would be a scary invasion weapon. Maybe we found a practical use for Pykrete additions: you could refrigerate yourself a new bow on the landing craft once the Ratte is loaded.
Another fun possibility would be to design the Ratte to make it buoyant and capable of modest water movement on its own. Then it could approch a contested invasion beach while "shedding" its ship-carrier, and then land, guns ablazing!
Since we're far away from where we started, can I suggest nuclear power as the ideal way to drive a Ratte. In an invasion type scenario, the enemy might hesitate to crack that nut just due the radiation risk!
Also if we're modern, building it lighter, with active point defenses and a modern naval approch to damage (IE redundancy and damage control) would make it ideal for future operation useless dirts. No IEDs gonna take out this mobile oppression palace!

Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Dec 22, 2017

# ? Dec 22, 2017 19:30

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

PS> OOOh, what if we gave this super Ratte an internal refrigeration system so it could fill damaged parts of its structure with Pykrete blocks?! Eh? Eh? :wiggle:

# ? Dec 22, 2017 19:33

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Growable supplementry Pykrete armor for soaking up damage when needed

# ? Dec 22, 2017 19:36

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

So, HEY GUNS, we're thinking of making a moble pykrete star fort, what can you tell us

# ? Dec 22, 2017 19:39

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 14:08

Molentik: Apr 30, 2013

How Nazi were the designers of the Ratte actually? What if the whole thing was just an elaborate plan to tie up as much resources as possible as a way to undermine the Nazi war effort? :tinfoil:

# ? Dec 22, 2017 19:43

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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